Doping in Soccer/Football

[sniper]

I just said that there's a good chance they all know their way around a doping programme. That doesn't preclude some teams having better doping programmes than others!

This was indeed the point i wanted to make.

Anyhow - countries of teams in last 8 of CL:

2012: Spain 2, England 1, France 1, Portugal 1, Germany 1, Italy 1, Cyprus 1
2011: England 3, Spain 2, Italy 1, Germany 1, Ukraine 1
2010: England 2, France 2, Spain 1, Italy 1, Germany 1, Russia 1
2009: England 4, Spain 2, Germany 1, Portugal 1
2008: England 4, Spain 1, Italy 1, Germany 1, Turkey 1
2007: England 3, Italy 2, Spain 1, Germany 1, Netherlands 1
2006: Italy 3, Spain 2, England 1, France 1, Portugal 1

So actually, it seems that this is the first year in some time that the Premier League hasn't been the dominant factor out there. Maybe the Spanish have improved their doping, or maybe those British teams are just still relying on those same players who've been carrying them for the last decade and are now getting pretty old.

convincing stats. I stand corrected (partially).
But at least FCBarca and the Spanish national team have been so dominant, and have developed such phenomenal stamina, that it makes me think they are on some special sauce. And under Mourinho, Madrid has done some serious cathching up in terms of stamina.

But admittedly, not all results in football can be explained by reference to doping. For instance, how to explain the exceptional results of English clubs vs. the constant low of the English national team? Doesn't seem to relate to doping, but to the structure of the Premiere League (too many foreigners).

 

[Caruut]

Absolute tragedy; Fabrice Muamba collapses during the 41st minute of play during Bolton's FA Cup match with Spurs. No-one around him at the time. The match was called off, and he is said to be fighting for his life.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17417973

Is this another life rocked by doping? Otherwise healthy, athletic 23-year-olds should not be collapsing during a football game, let alone in the 41st minute of it. Seems highly suspicious to me, just hope the lad makes it out alright.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I hope it isn't doping, and that he can make a full recovery, but the number of times this has happened recently is extremely worrying. If these events and ones like them (Feher, Foe, Puerta, Jarque, Serginho and so on) are to do with doping, how many players are going to have to die before FIFA take notice?

 

[THISISIT]

Absolute tragedy; Fabrice Muamba collapses during the 41st minute of play during Bolton's FA Cup match with Spurs. No-one around him at the time. The match was called off, and he is said to be fighting for his life.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17417973

Is this another life rocked by doping? Otherwise healthy, athletic 23-year-olds should not be collapsing during a football game, let alone in the 41st minute of it. Seems highly suspicious to me, just hope the lad makes it out alright.

Actually sudden cardiac arrest in a young athlete happens often enough to be a well-known phenomenon, usually due to undetected congenital hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. IIRC, it's the most common non-traumatic reason that young athletes die participating in sports in the U.S.

 

[Mambo95]

Otherwise healthy, athletic 23-year-olds should not be collapsing during a football game,

They do though. Quite frequently. They're not pros though so you don't notice. I know two people who have died this way in their twenties.

But please don't let someone's trauma get in the way of you pushing an ill thought-out and uneducated agenda to prove yourself to the Clinic crowd.

 

[Caruut]

They do though. Quite frequently. They're not pros though so you don't notice. I know two people who have died this way in their twenties.

I was not aware, my bad.

 

[Mambo95]

I was not aware, my bad.

Sorry, if I seemed rude. It's just this forum usually can't see any explanation for anything other than doping.

 

[Caruut]

Sorry, if I seemed rude. It's just this forum usually can't see any explanation for anything other than doping.

I posted it here because I was curious, not because I felt it was cast-iron proof. It's things like this (if it was doping) that make people want to be rid of it.

And, I didn't think you were rude. I apologised because you said you knew people who'd died from it, I didn't want to be causing offence.

 

[Albatros]

good post, but you should allow for the possibility that, in recent years, Spanish clubs have doped with something more powerful than English teams.
At least, the results and the (literally) incredible increase of stamina of Spanish teams in recent years suggest that.

I already speculated somewhere else, that perhaps HGH is much more widespread in Spain than in other countries? Though I'm not sure if HGH correlates with stamina.

Spanish teams do not run more than teams from other nations. In fact they are middle of the pack when it comes to distance covered. You can check the stats in the UEFA webpage. And I believe most, if not all, teams are at it, having watched football for 4 decades and analysed the issue from many angles.


And don't forget that technique plays a role too, and Spanish teams are these days the Brazil of the past when it comes to controlling and passing the ball with accuracy.

 

[Albatros]

Maybe they are. I wouldn't be surprised. But after years of Manchester Utd bombarding goals and scoring equalisers and winners in the 93rd, 94th, 95th minute and more, I simply cannot believe that they're innocent. Not with Nani and Rio Ferdinand on the squad.

Good chance both teams are up to the same tricks, but Athletic Club are just playing better football right now. This match is also a lot more important to Athletic than it is to Ferguson's men, of course, too.

Of course they are on a doping program like the rest, and a very good one may I say. Just look at the transformation of physique of some of the players that have signed for United over the years.

Professional sport is about doping better than your rivals as much as about talent.

BTW, talking about stamina, German teams when I was I kid used to score goals in the last minutes of the game very often. It was attributed to the "natural" stamina of the German nation and their never say attitude. Curiously enough this is not happening any more. Then I learned that Beckenbauer and his fellows were on very professional doping programs at a time when antidoping controls did not even exist.

In 1974 for instance,Bayern Munich played Atletico Madrid in the old European Cup final. The final was very even and it went to extra time. Atletico scored and in the last minute Bayern equalised. There were no penalties then, so another game was played three days later when Bayern absolutely destroyed Atletico due to their tremendous physical superiority. One team was on centramine and cafeine and the other were doing blood transfusions like the Finnish long distance runners of the decade.

So in a way it is only fair that Spanish teams are now doping better than the rest.

 

[The Hitch]

Sorry, if I seemed rude. It's just this forum usually can't see any explanation for anything other than doping.

They do though. Quite frequently. They're not pros though so you don't notice. I know two people who have died this way in their twenties.

But please don't let someone's trauma get in the way of you pushing an ill thought-out and uneducated agenda to prove yourself to the Clinic crowd.

The poster made no accusations, he posted a question and he is well within his right to do so.

Just because a celebrities life is involved doesn't mean we can't talk about the science behind it.

This seems to me like exactly the kind of place where a discussion about the science behind such tragic events can take place.

If the taking of performance enhancing drugs might increase the chance of such consequences wouldn't it be helpful to have a discussion about that on a subforum about doping?

It would not be a stretch of the imagination to think that maybe people who take or consider taking peds, might visit this forum or be linked to it through google and could benefit from reading such a discussion even if the catalyst for it did have nothing to do with doping.

Though I suppose making another attempt to carry your war against this subforum and free speech, is more important.

Oh and could you please stop the " all the clinic is the same" trolling? As has been explained to you in posts you deliberately ignore, your claims that everyone in the clinic shares the same view and same behavior is a very weak baseless and pathetic caricature, and your claims that you have the motives and behaviour of everyone in the clinic figured out, is, quite frankly quite insulting.

 

[Caruut]

I just saw your edit. That was, as you said, rude. If you think I would try and use an incident like this to gain the approval of an online forum, you do not have the measure of me as a man.

I made it perfectly clear in my post that this was utterly tragic, and that I hoped he was okay. Let me make it clear that, in most cases, I think dopers are more victims than criminals. There are a few people pushing the limits of doping, and others pushing the drugs onto team-mates. They are criminals, in my eyes. I don't think that a relatively junior athlete, in a sport where the teams are far more powerful than the player, is very likely to be doing it much out of his own free will.

If Muamba had ever taken PEDs and these contributed to this tragedy, then he is the victim of institutionalised doping. With this in mind, I think ignoring out of hand the possibility that Muamba was encouraged to dope is incredibly disrespectful to him and what he's going through.

 

[Mambo95]

Just because a celebrities life is involved doesn't mean we can't talk about the science behind it.

This seems to me like exactly the kind of place where a discussion about the science behind such tragic events can take place.

Before you discuss the science, then at least have a semblance of knowledge about it. Otherwise it is tawdry morbid gossip.

Start your education here: http://www.c-r-y.org.uk/

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Before you discuss the science, then at least have a semblance of knowledge about it. Otherwise it is tawdry morbid gossip.

Start your education here: http://www.c-r-y.org.uk/

I don't think anyone is trying to say that fit young people don't sometimes collapse from serious cardic problems with no warning. The question is does it happen more often since oxygen vector doping was invented? It's a serious question that hasn't been answered yet AFAIK.

As such I think the discussion is a useful one. It's not about assuming an individual was doping because they are critically I'll. It's about recognizing how serious the situation is and trying to understand whether any of these horrible collapses might be preventable.

 

[THISISIT]

I don't think anyone is trying to say that fit young people don't sometimes collapse from serious cardic problems with no warning. The question is does it happen more often since oxygen vector doping was invented? It's a serious question that hasn't been answered yet AFAIK.

As such I think the discussion is a useful one. It's not about assuming an individual was doping because they are critically I'll. It's about recognizing how serious the situation is and trying to understand whether any of these horrible collapses might be preventable.

Well the typical fatal arrhythmias are almost always ventricular (e.g., VTAC evolving to VFIB) and ventricular arrhythmias are usually due to some sort of cardiac hypoxia. "Oxygen vector doping" if anything should minimize the chance of this happening at least while someone is exercising.

Now if he had a myocardial infarct or something unusual like a coronary artery vasospasm then maybe "thick" blood could contribute.

 

[THISISIT]

Before you discuss the science, then at least have a semblance of knowledge about it. Otherwise it is tawdry morbid gossip.

Start your education here: http://www.c-r-y.org.uk/

IIRC there was an Italian study that showed you could dramatically lower the incidents of these events by screening young athletes with a stress test. Not currently done in the U.S. because of cost, but it's something to think about having done for yourself if you're young or for your kids at some point.

 

[Albatros]

I don't think anyone is trying to say that fit young people don't sometimes collapse from serious cardic problems with no warning. The question is does it happen more often since oxygen vector doping was invented? It's a serious question that hasn't been answered yet AFAIK.

As such I think the discussion is a useful one. It's not about assuming an individual was doping because they are critically I'll. It's about recognizing how serious the situation is and trying to understand whether any of these horrible collapses might be preventable.

I have followed football since the 70's and never I had witnessed anything similar to what we are seing today, with so many elite footballers collapsing on a football pitch.

And it should be the opposite considering that they receive better medical care than ever.

My first thoght is also that the new doping regimes increment the chances
of collapses happening on the pitch.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But then, today's footballers play more games than ever before in a media goldfish bowl like never before with a shorter offseason than ever before with more pressure (and money) than ever before.

It's quite easy to see why the strain on the body, doping or no doping, is increased. Also, the media coverage thanks to the Internet is massively internationalised, so maybe the number of players collapsing has increased, but because of improved reportage this seems like more of an extreme spike.

Whether there is a link between doping and the number of players collapsing, we can't say for sure. It could be that some are due to it, some aren't, it could be that all are, or all aren't. But perhaps it should be looked into, whether the number has significantly increased, and if it has, what the reasons for this might be. It might just be bad luck, and each case may well be totally different. But if the increase is really as clear as it seems to have been to us punters, then FIFA might have blood on their hands if they don't investigate.

 

[hrotha]

Taken by itself, every individual case can be due to natural cases, but it happens so frequently that it's just criminally irresponsible not to take a closer look.

Do you guys think all the sudden deaths that happened in cycling starting from the late 80s and early 90s were natural? Interestingly, cyclists don't usually collapse while on the bike, and most cases happened while they were sleeping.

 

[The Hitch]

Before you discuss the science, then at least have a semblance of knowledge about it. Otherwise it is tawdry morbid gossip.

Start your education here: http://www.c-r-y.org.uk/

Lol surprise. i have not said a word about the science of this issue and yet big brother mambo who knows everything about every clinic poster is already telling me i don't know about it.

Since i was making a free speech argument my knowledge or lack of on cardiology is irrelevant.

And since your only argument on the science side has been that you knew 2 people who died from such a problem, sorry but im not going to buy into your expertise on the issue just yet.

 

[The Hitch]

As such I think the discussion is a useful one. It's not about assuming an individual was doping because they are critically I'll. It's about recognizing how serious the situation is and trying to understand whether any of these horrible collapses might be preventable.

Mambo95 knows this but if he admits it he has nothing to fight against.

he will as always try to paint the discussion as something it isn't so that he can go back to his anti clinic clique elsewhere on the internet and say "look what the asylum is doing now".

How can he be the caped crusder against the evil ignorant clinic if they are discussing the the science behind heart problems ?

It is therefore important for him to pretend that this discussion consists only of posters attacking the victim as a doper.

 

[Mambo95]

Lol surprise. i have not said a word about the science of this issue and yet big brother mambo who knows everything about every clinic poster is already telling me i don't know about it.

Since i was making a free speech argument my knowledge or lack of on cardiology is irrelevant.

And since your only argument on the science side has been that you knew 2 people who died from such a problem, sorry but im not going to buy into your expertise on the issue just yet.

The one thing you hate more than anything else is that you might be wrong. When such a possibility arises, you don't half get uppity. My science comes from reading, rather than trying to shoehorn a situation into prior prejudices.

Anyway, here's some more potential dopers for you....

 

[The Hitch]

The one thing you hate more than anything else is that you might be wrong. When such a possibility arises, you don't half get uppity. My science comes from reading, rather than trying to shoehorn a situation into prior prejudices.

Anyway, here's some more potential dopers for you....

Wrong about what if i may ask.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The one thing you hate more than anything else is that you might be wrong. When such a possibility arises, you don't half get uppity. My science comes from reading, rather than trying to shoehorn a situation into prior prejudices.

Nobody actually said that Muamba was doping. Nobody.

Caruut said it seemed suspicious, and retracted their initial hypothesis in part when presented with information that counteracted it.

I said I hope it isn't doping, but that this is happening too often, and that FIFA and other competent organisations should perhaps investigate. Not Muamba individually, but the health of players in general. Because if there isn't any link to doping but the numbers of people dying is going up, maybe there's some other causal link.

THISISIT even pointed out studies that had been taken relating to Sudden Cardiac Death and how it can be reduced. So if there is not a doping link and these are all unrelated, unfortunate cases, then there are still things the authorities can do to reduce it.

Hrotha said that each case could be individual tragedies, unrelated to one another, but that it is irresponsible for the authorities not to take a closer look. This does not mean "open a doping investigation". It could just mean slightly closer monitoring of the health levels of competitors.

Albatros is the closest to having made any accusations, saying that in their opinion, the new doping regimes increase the likelihood of such events. But even then, there was no accusation that Patrice Muamba doped. Just that they feel there is an increased risk of this happening because of doping, which is joining the dots given the apparent increase since the early 90s.

I personally pointed out that perhaps the increase isn't as great as we think, but due to the spread of the internet and globalisation of the media, we hear about cases in other leagues more often than we would in the past.



There is probably a fairly high incidence of doping amongst footballers. Maybe not brazen, unapologetic blood dope and EPO, but plenty of minor recovery products and things like that that a cyclist would not be able to take.

There have been a number of cases like Feher, Puerta, Serginho and Foe in recent years, and FIFA should investigate to see if there's anything that can be done to reduce the risk of this happening.

These last two statements are both appropriate to this discussion (the former in a discussion of doping in football, which is of course what the thread is about, and the latter in a discussion of Patrice Muamba specifically, which is the present direction of the thread). I happen to believe that both statements are true. But it doesn't mean that I believe that the two statements are directly connected, either in the event of Muamba specifically or in the event of the various players collectively.

It seems you want to characterise the idea of FIFA investigating as a doping investigation, or that we all make the direct link of Muamba's collapse to doping, which is not the case, especially with such little information available. But there are more reasons for sportsmen to collapse than drugs; and they should be investigated just the same, because none of us want to see more people dying.

 

[sniper]

The following stat is probably just a coincidence unrelated to doping, but I'll post it anyway:

http://es.eurosport.yahoo.com/18032012/47/liga-gran-cambio-xavi-madurez.html

Xavi Hernández está demostrando en su madurez que se ha convertido en un jugador extremadamente completo. Con su gol ante el Sevilla suma nueve goles en Liga, su mejor registro desde que juega en el Barça.

and especially this:

El centrocampista ha marcado 31 goles en sus últimas siete campañas por 16 en las siete primeras.

Let's do the math. So Xavi turns into this complete player some seven seasons ago and was quite mediocre before that (let's be honest). Seven seasons ago...Isn't that when Rijkaard came in and when the Puerto-connection-rumors emerged? Basically when Barca began turning into this freaky unbeatable football machine?

All signs indicate that the year 2005 marked some significant change of program in Barca's medical department.
HGH? EPO? Or a combination?