Doping in Soccer/Football

[Caruut]

To be honest i think to see what happenned to Muamba and for people to post it here and link it on to a discussion about doping is a disgrace. Yee should be ashamed of yourselves. Yee join the dots to suit yourselves to come on to the topic of doping and i think that is wrong. To come up with that sort of talk without a shred of evidence is bang out of order and especially so when he is still fighting for his life.

I know Muamba well from his time at Arsenal and also followed his career when we loaned him out to Birmingham and he is a very likeable and sincere person from the interviews i have seen from him. He was highly rated in the Arsenal academy by Liam Brady who actually thought he might make it into our 1st team but in the end he moved permanently to Birmingham coz we had too many midfielders ahead of him. He is a family man as i read an interview with him years ago when he was with us that when he was growing up in the Congo there was bullets being fired outside his house. His family came to England and he has made a career for himself and because of his tough life in Congo he cherishes his football ever so much. I said a prayer last night for him so i hope everything turns out alright for him in the end.

So i dont want to hear anymore of that nonsense linking it on to a discussion about doping.

And if thats the sort of stuff thats going on in this forum now, well then i wont be posting here much longer, if at all.

To see what a great person he is then read this article from today`s Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/...ign=Feed:+theguardian/football/rss+(Football)

I've said some of this on this thread already, but I feel I ought to defend myself again. This is utterly tragic, and I really hope he makes it through. There is nothing more valuable than life, to me, and this is one of the reasons I want sport to be as dope-free as possible. The more the early adopters get away with, the more everyone else has to pump into their bodies to keep doing whatever sport they love, just to keep up. I don't know is Muamba doped or not.

I feel that there is doping in football, given the high rewards and lax controls, and to ignore the role of club doctors, either not testing him properly or pushing the body too far, in this would be disrespectful to him. The very reason I feel that this ought to be discussed is because he is fighting for his life out there.

You say "join the dots" as if there are many things I've tenuously brought in to try and smear the poor guy. He collapsed. Something must have gone wrong with the body. One way of making the body go wrong is by putting stuff in it, otherwise it was wrong all along, or a combination of the two. It is not unreasonable to wonder why this happened.

By all accounts, Muamba seems to be a well-like, nice guy. But nice guys dope too - Jan Ullrich for example. I don't know whether he took drugs or not. I would guess that he takes roughly the same amount as other EPL footballers. I have no idea what they take, or how much of it they take, and obviously I have no proof. I also have little doubt that in cases where there is doping, it is probably driven by the clubs.

Again, I hope Muamba gets better, and I hope you understand why I feel it necessary to discuss this issue.

 

[Arnout]

Bilbao lost 0-3 tonight. Surely they didn't take their PEDs.

 

[Caruut]

The one thing you hate more than anything else is that you might be wrong. When such a possibility arises, you don't half get uppity. My science comes from reading, rather than trying to shoehorn a situation into prior prejudices.

Anyway, here's some more potential dopers for you....
image snipped

Using this link's statistics, they reckon on a maximum of 2.8 deaths per 100,000 person-years, and a minimum of 1.9 per 100,000.

Now, in the ten years covering the 2000/01 to 2009/2010 seasons, over Europe's "big 5" leagues, there have been 3 deaths that seem to be SCDs, to my knowledge - Marc-Vivien Foé, Antonio Puerta and Daniel Jarque.

With 5 league, 20 teams each, roughly 25 players each, we get around 2,500 players. Over 10 years, this translates to about 25,000 person-years.

So, we have 3 deaths per 25,000 person-years, or 12 deaths per 100,000 person-years. This is more than 4 times the rate amongst the general population. As such, we have to ask what it is that makes footballers so much more prone to this.

 

[Caruut]

Bilbao lost 0-3 tonight. Surely they didn't take their PEDs.

And United won 0-5. Still, even the best teams are well-know for performing below their usual standard the weekend after a tough midweek European game, especially with a small-ish squad. If anything, looking like all they'd done on Thursday was some light training followed by a round of gold would be more suspicious.

 

[Froome19]

And United won 0-5. Still, even the best teams are well-know for performing below their usual standard the weekend after a tough midweek European game, especially with a small-ish squad. If anything, looking like all they'd done on Thursday was some light training followed by a round of gold would be more suspicious.

You evidently havent watched United much in Europe and then in the PL this season

 

[pedaling squares]

To be honest i think to see what happenned to Muamba and for people to post it here and link it on to a discussion about doping is a disgrace. Yee should be ashamed of yourselves. Yee join the dots to suit yourselves to come on to the topic of doping and i think that is wrong. To come up with that sort of talk without a shred of evidence is bang out of order and especially so when he is still fighting for his life.

I know Muamba well from his time at Arsenal and also followed his career when we loaned him out to Birmingham and he is a very likeable and sincere person from the interviews i have seen from him. He was highly rated in the Arsenal academy by Liam Brady who actually thought he might make it into our 1st team but in the end he moved permanently to Birmingham coz we had too many midfielders ahead of him. He is a family man as i read an interview with him years ago when he was with us that when he was growing up in the Congo there was bullets being fired outside his house. His family came to England and he has made a career for himself and because of his tough life in Congo he cherishes his football ever so much. I said a prayer last night for him so i hope everything turns out alright for him in the end.

So i dont want to hear anymore of that nonsense linking it on to a discussion about doping.

And if thats the sort of stuff thats going on in this forum now, well then i wont be posting here much longer, if at all.

To see what a great person he is then read this article from today`s Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/...ign=Feed:+theguardian/football/rss+(Football)

Discussing the possibility of PED use in a forum designed for that purpose is nothing to be ashamed of. It is one of several potential explanations, yet nobody has suggested that it is the likely cause of this tragedy. Nor has anyone suggested that his fate was deserved. I'm sure that Muamba is every bit the gentleman that you suggest, but that tells us nothing about the likelihood of his using PED's. Have we not seen enough examples in cycling of nice guys failing the morality test? Whether or not he has ever used PED's is immaterial in my opinion; there are bigger things to worry about at the moment. But it is not right to critique people for raising the possibility in a doping forum. Ignore the discussion if you don't like it, or present facts to the contrary if you wish to debate the point.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Using this link's statistics, they reckon on a maximum of 2.8 deaths per 100,000 person-years, and a minimum of 1.9 per 100,000.

Now, in the ten years covering the 2000/01 to 2009/2010 seasons, over Europe's "big 5" leagues, there have been 3 deaths that seem to be SCDs, to my knowledge - Marc-Vivien Foé, Antonio Puerta and Daniel Jarque.

With 5 league, 20 teams each, roughly 25 players each, we get around 2,500 players. Over 10 years, this translates to about 25,000 person-years.

So, we have 3 deaths per 25,000 person-years, or 12 deaths per 100,000 person-years. This is more than 4 times the rate amongst the general population. As such, we have to ask what it is that makes footballers so much more prone to this.

Nice post.

IIRC there was an Italian study that showed you could dramatically lower the incidents of these events by screening young athletes with a stress test. Not currently done in the U.S. because of cost, but it's something to think about having done for yourself if you're young or for your kids at some point.

This article appears to refer to that study. Interestingly, the article implies that SCD was five times as common in athletes than in the general population prior to the start of screening in 1984, which is consistent with Carutt's back-of-envelope estimate of elevated risk in soccer players. The question is whether these athletes were screened? If not, that seems rather remiss when screening reduces the death rate by approximately 90% and soccer can certainly afford the testing. If they were screened, hmmm...........

 

[andy1234]

There is something wrong with people who take a tragedy like this, and immedately start posting doping related questions about it on an internet forum.

Justify it how you want, its still disgusting.

 

[sniper]

Gooner, Andy.

1. Reason tells us that practically all premier league clubs are on a doping programme. (It would be alien to think otherwise.)

2. A superhealthy guy (how else could he become a pro?) just dropped dead on an english soccer pitch.

What's disgusting about questioning whether there is a link between 1 and 2? There may be a link, there may not be. With your attitude, we'll never find out.

This forum was not designed for being politically correct.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

I agree with everything you just said.

Good. It pleases me to disgust people who would rather find emotive excuses to turn a blind eye to potential causes of athletes dying than discuss the hard questions.

 

[Mambo95]

There is something wrong with people who take a tragedy like this, and immedately start posting doping related questions about it on an internet forum.

Justify it how you want, its still disgusting.

Well said.

When a pleasant young man is fighting for his life and, despite absolutely nothing connecting him, his team or his condition to doping, your early reaction is not one of concern but to see an opportunity bismirch that man's reputation with completely unfounded innuendo, it is time to look in the mirror and think "Wow! How did I lose my perspective so badly".

It reminds me of when Tondo died and some posters could barely contain their glee as they plunged headlong into moronic conspiracy theories.

If you think it is important to talk about doping in regard to Muamba, then don't preach to the choir on a cycling forum - take your message to the relevant audience - football websites, Bolton Wanderers websites. Contact Bolton and demand the truth. If you are genuinely concerned about doping and think you're right and not just a tawdry gossip, that's what you'll do. Brave enough?

 

[andy1234]

This forum was not designed for being politically correct.

Ahhh, its the forum's fault that those people can't show some decency......

Keep up the good work.

 

[andy1234]

Good. It pleases me to disgust people who would rather find emotive excuses to turn a blind eye to potential causes of athletes dying than discuss the hard questions.

It's not a hard question. Its a very easy, cowardly question.

Next stop, kids with cancer..... are they to blame?

 

[hrotha]

Have you stopped to think that some of us might find your refusal to even consider doping as a cause wildly irresponsible, and that those of us who believe doping might be behind cases like this (not necessarily this case in particular) might feel disgusted by what we perceive is the willingness of the general public (and especially of team staff, league managers, sports journalists, etc) to sacrifice lives as long as they can keep living in Wonderland?

 

[Mambo95]

Have you stopped to think that some of us might find your refusal to even consider doping as a cause wildly irresponsible, and that those of us who believe doping might be behind cases like this (not necessarily this case in particular) might feel disgusted by what we perceive is the willingness of the general public (and especially of team staff, league managers, sports journalists, etc) to sacrifice lives as long as they can keep living in Wonderland?

Plenty of cardiologists have been in the media explaining exactly this phenomenom. You won't have read any of them of course, as they don't fit in with your 'doping is always the cause' agenda. There is absolutely nothing linking these cases to doping. Facts are always a tricky obstacle for ill thought out theories.

Even if there genuinely was some link, don't you think it it was the eagerness to make insinuations before it was known whether he would survive that is an indication that some posters have lost their decency. Go and tell your friends and family that you saw an internet forum that was making innuendo about Muamba taking drugs even before they had restarted his heart, and see if they are impressed or repulsed.

 

[hrotha]

Plenty of cardiologists have been in the media explaining exactly this phenomenom. You won't have read any of them of course, as they don't fit in with your 'doping is always the cause' agenda. There is absolutely nothing linking these cases to doping. Facts are always a tricky obstacle for ill thought out theories.

Even if there genuinely was some link, don't you think it it was the eagerness to make insinuations before it was known whether he would survive that is an indication that some posters have lost their decency. Go and tell your friends and family that you saw an internet forum that was making innuendo about Muamba taking drugs even before they had restarted his heart, and see if they are impressed or repulsed.

I'll repeat my previous question: what do you think of the deaths of cyclists especially in the late 80s that are usually associated with EPO? Doping is not the only answer, of course. This phenomenon can be perfectly natural, which is what cardiologists explain in the media, but that doesn't mean it can't be induced by drug use. It's not that if you do drugs you'll have it and if you don't you'll be fine - it's all a matter of probability. We have reasons to suspect with a high degree of certainty that doping is common in football. We also know this thing happens with some frequency among pro footballers. Strictly cardiological non-doping related screenings are great, but they might not be sufficient if there's also a link to doping. Which might there be, and we will only find out if we bother to investigate.

Which you're telling us not to do because we're somehow insulting the victims? No, sorry, that's not it. We're very aware that doping is not an ethics issue among dopers. If Muamba doped in a sport where rampant doping is the norm, that doesn't make him a bad person, and if that's what you're suggesting you're missing the point. Football is not modern cycling, it's more like cycling in the 80s and 90s, and we're not judging football players from an ethical point of view.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

It pleases you to disgust people on a topic like this. Something pleases you at a time like this. You should be ashamed of yourself. Show some respect to a man who is still fighting for his life then to talk about something where you have absolutely no shred of evidence to back it up.

You say ask the hard questions. The question is how wasnt this heart problem detected and is their sufficient screening being done? Thats the real question. I dont see any doping being mentioned in these links

You mean the question I asked up-thread?

hrotha said it better than I ever could. It certainly pleases me to disgust people who I perceive are willing to risk lives as long as they can keep living in Wonderland.

 

[Mambo95]

I'll repeat my previous question: what do you think of the deaths of cyclists especially in the late 80s that are usually associated with EPO? Doping is not the only answer, of course.

Doping is not an answer at all. There is no link. Doctors know what causes these things. It's no mystery. The cyclists that died, did so in their sleep. Muamba was not asleep. Your 'theories' have no basis in fact.

Which you're telling us not to do because we're somehow insulting the victims? No, sorry, that's not it.

Well go and ask your family and friends, who you have no anonimity with, whether they thing these have been the actions of a decent compassionate human being? Then go and voice you opinions on a Bolton Wanderers forum. They're the ones who need to hear your 'message' not people on a cycling forum.

You won't though. Because you know, deep down, that you are in the wrong and your views are offensive and without the protection of anonimity and similarly warped personalities, your true self will be revealed to you.

 

[hrotha]

Doping is not an answer at all. There is no link. Doctors know what causes these things. It's no mystery. The cyclists that died, did so in their sleep. Muamba was not asleep. Your 'theories' have no basis in fact.

I already pointed out these differences earlier in this thread.
I don't see how you can be sure about doping not being involved at all when there hasn't been any open investigation.

Well go and ask your family and friends, who you have no anonimity with, whether they thing these have been the actions of a decent compassionate human being? Then go and voice you opinions on a Bolton Wanderers forum. They're the ones who need to hear your 'message' not people on a cycling forum.

You won't though. Because you know, deep down, that you are in the wrong and your views are offensive and without the protection of anonimity and similarly warped personalities, your true self will be revealed to you.

Nice, an appeal to emotion. That's not the way to treat an issue objectively, you know. I won't go to a Bolton Wanderers forum because I'd accomplish nothing and would only cause offense (just because I don't think it should be offensive that doesn't mean I can't recognize many people would be too caught up in their emotions not to be offended). I gladly discuss doping with my friends and family, thank you. The anonimity bit is stupid.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Doping is not an answer at all. There is no link. Doctors know what causes these things. It's no mystery. The cyclists that died, did so in their sleep. Muamba was not asleep. Your 'theories' have no basis in fact.

Doctors know what causes these things some of the time. If you read the links posted, you will realize that many current soccer players might already be screened for these problems. Screening has been shown to be effective and yet, from the scant information we have so far, the incidence of SCD doesn't appear to be declining as much as it should. Why not? Not enough screening? Pro soccer players are being sent to clueless cardiologists? Some other explanation?

Doctors don't know everything, especially about the risks of doping, as these are not generally studies. A reasonable theoretical case for doping not contributing to SCD was made up-thread, but that does not carry the same weight as a theory supported by some data. The information dredged up so far leaves questions unanswered in my view.

Well go and ask your family and friends, who you have no anonimity with, whether they thing these have been the actions of a decent compassionate human being? Then go and voice you opinions on a Bolton Wanderers forum. They're the ones who need to hear your 'message' not people on a cycling forum.

You won't though. Because you know, deep down, that you are in the wrong and your views are offensive and without the protection of anonimity and similarly warped personalities, your true self will be revealed to you.

All this ranting is misdirected. It's impossible to know whether doping played a part in an individual case. Even the medical professionals working on his case wont know. Nobody has suggested otherwise, and yet a few are persisting in misinterpreting what has been written. Why?

As an aside, I would be happy to discuss the subject with friends but must admit I have a few thick family members that might struggle to follow the arguments, so I don't really want to ask them their opinion. One muppet playing the child-cancer-lover card is enough for me for one day. FFS

 

[Mambo95]

All this ranting is misdirected.

It's not ranting. If, when a person is fighting for his life and before his heart has even been restarted, a person indulges in innuendo and insinuation without any effort to learn the actual facts, then that person is not a decent human being and needs to reflect on how they became so badly warped. They can bleat on about 'free speech' and 'important discussions' all they like, but when someone behaves like an a-hole, they shouldn't be surprised when someone calls them for it.

 

[andy1234]

As an aside, I would be happy to discuss the subject with friends but must admit I have a few thick family members that might struggle to follow the arguments, so I don't really want to ask them their opinion. One muppet playing the child-cancer-lover card is enough for me for one day. FFS

It's not a card, it was a question.
You are clearly one of the thick members of your family.

If all illness has a potential for underlying causes, such as doping, then where do you draw the line? Surely every avenue of abuse should be investigated ruthelessly? Hearsay and insinuation are simply a part of that important process.
F**k the feelings of family members or friends.

Its all in a good cause.

 

[Mambo95]

I have a few thick family members that might struggle to follow the arguments,

Don't you just hate genetics?

 

[ramjambunath]

Bee in the bonnet-
Does running 10km in 90 min put a strain on the heart? Does this strain increase if there are sudden spurts of acceleration? If the average number of deaths for a footballer is supposedly four times higher than the general population, do you think that the strain on the heart is the same for a footballer as it is for sedentary or regular lifestyled people?
I'm no medical expert, but reading this thread it seems there aren't many.

Make insinuations, but not without a strand of tangible evidence. That just seems like morbid gossip mongering at this moment.

 

[unclem0nty]

I don't see why speculation about what may have caused this tragedy is morbid or heartless. As said above, it's simply irresponsible not to ask why terrible incidents like this are becoming so much more common in football. I'm a Tottenham fan and like many was shocked to tears by what unfolded on Saturday. But part of my distress was a nagging fear that this wasn't a tragic one-off caused by a genetic defect or some other roll of the fate-dice.

If Muamba's cardiac catastrophe was down to an undiagnosed predisposition to arrhythmia etc, then he's a victim of inadequate testing procedures (though it's been widely reported that his two transfers would certainly have involved ECGs as part of the standard accompanying health checks, as would his appearances for the England U21 team, and that such checks would have picked up on any dangerous abnormalities).

If it was in some way catalysed by doping, then he's just as much a victim - of the ever-increasing pressure to perform in a game that's becoming more and more physical.

Muamba's team, Bolton, is locked in a fierce relegation battle - losing Premier League status would be disastrous for the club. What separates football from most other (non-American) sports tainted by doping (eg cycling, athletics, and - let's be honest - tennis) is that it's entirely a team game. Football glory is never really individual. Underperformance isn't about letting yourself down, it's about letting your comrades down. Your club down. Your fans down. Yes, there are silly amounts of cash at the top end these days, but the incentive for a footballer to dope is about a lot more than that.

It probably wouldn't even seem wrong. From what we've discovered about Operation Puerto, plus the Italian Serie A revelations in the late 90s, plus Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger's published suspicions about blood-boosting among players who arrived at the club from abroad, it's clear that the professional game has a widespread doping culture, and that whatever tests are being carried out, they aren't detecting it. That pretty much tells players that doping is acceptable - the same message that the UCI's stance over the decades has given to pro cyclists.

In short, if other players are going that extra yard for their team, you'll find it very hard to justify not doing whatever it is that they're doing to get there. Particularly if your own contribution to the cause is predominantly physical.

Muamba's game is all about stamina and determination. Some quotes from the coverage of Saturday's tragedy:

"Speaking to BBC News, football pundit and former Liverpool defender Mark Lawrenson described Muamba as 'very strong' and a 'box-to-box' midfielder."

"Steve Bruce, who signed Muamba for Birmingham from Arsenal in 2007, told Radio Five Live's Sportsweek programme: "He had a fierce determination. He was as good as I've ever had in being able to get up and down the pitch. His fitness levels and the energy he brought to the team are quite remarkable. Fabrice is not the most naturally gifted of footballers but he made the best of what he's got."

"I'm not the most talented footballer but I know what I can do," he said at the time.... Although Muamba would be the first to admit that he is not blessed with fantastic technical ability, his attitude and commitment are second to none and have left an impression on everyone who has worked with him, including Arsène Wenger. When the Arsenal manager was weighing up whether to let Muamba join Birmingham, the Frenchman privately admitted that he wished a few of his first-team squad at the time had the same level of desire as the teenager who was about to depart."

Studies have suggested a link between steroid/HGH use and a significantly enhanced risk of the type of cardiac arrest that Muamba appears to have suffered:

There are reports in the literature of cases of myocardial infarcts and massive pulmonary embolism associated with steroid use on previously healthy athletes. When steroids are used in connection with growth hormones, the cardiac myofibrils may thicken and grow unphysiologically so that the fibrils in the conduction system of the heart stretch and the electric pace-making of the heart suffers. This increases the risk of serious arrhythmia and sudden deaths.

And though EPO and its ilk are apparently sometimes helpful in such cases (I'm a Google-fed medico-pharmological imbecile), there have been suggestions of enhanced risk:

Like EPO, [Darbepoetin alfa's] use increases the risk of cardiovascular problems, including cardiac arrest, arrhythmia, hypertension and hypertensive encephalopathy, congestive heart failure, vascular thrombosis or ischemia, myocardial infarction, edema, and stroke.

We've learned over the past two days that Fabrice Muamba is a genuinely lovely, humble man who in no way fits the profile created by those who see all dopers as selfish, grubby, desperate cheats. Perhaps because I don't see football dopers in that light at all, I don't feel that it's a shameful insult to wonder aloud if Muamba's awful tragedy might in some way be linked to what very much seems an entrenched culture in the sport. If it is, as I said before, that would make him both a victim and a martyr who deserves nothing but the most profound sympathy.