Doping in XC skiing

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Sep 25, 2009
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kosmonaut said:
.... Mediocre engine much?
according to this 10 yo article, which in turn refers to a translated norge source, einar could boast a VO2 max of 86.

if true, hardly a mediocre engine tarasov referred to that he could regularly trounce by 1.5 min in 20 km....

among the other numbers, bjoergen is listed at 72.

while i have no evidence to prove or disprove the data, i seriously doubt the eob's number (provided it is un-doped), albeit, the marit's one looks quite plausible for a female with her achievements and physique..
 
May 19, 2010
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TomasC said:
According to the interview, he also tried to make some German biathletes (Ricco Gross, Frank Luck, Mark Kirchner) drunk on the eve of a 20km race while staying sober himself to have better chances to win. The drinking part he succeeded in but the next day the race was won by Pavel Muslimov followed by all the (supposedly) drunk Germans while Tarasov ended 25th :)
The drinking story is in the Bj?rndalen section.
Bj?rndalen famously doesn't drink. He uses vodka as mouthwash before he goes to bed, to kill all germs he's picked up from the riff raff on the biathlon circus. Then he spits it out and goes to sleep to wake up rested and healthy the next morning.
 
Feb 15, 2015
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python said:
according to this 10 yo article, which in turn refers to a translated norge source, einar could boast a VO2 max of 86.
while i have no evidence to prove or disprove the data, i seriously doubt the eob's number (provided it is un-doped)
Why would you doubt that number?
 
Kokoso said:
That's surprising considering how he was literally flying in the past. I remember him being able to pull huge chunks of time on anybody. Are others so lazy or what?
Many years ago, he talked about the blood values he had at the WCH in Hochfilzen 2005, probably the point in his career where he was at his best, and those he mentioned were mediocre. Similar to mine if i remember correctly (so something like 42 % hct, 13.x g/dl).

Please note that Poiree at his best could rival him in terms of skiing speed, as well as Sven Fischer and Michael Greis. Andresen was equal to him and I daresay Berger was the fastest of them all, but these two always failed at the shooting range.

And if you would try to find out who is fastest by just looking at the technique of the athletes, without knowing anything about them, I'm pretty sure OEB, Andresen or Berger would be very high up there. You see, to me it always looked like these athletes were supposed to be fastest. If someone who is skiing like this gets the best times, then things can't be that wrong. Yaroshenko or Tcherezov on the other hand... When they were making the rest look silly in Kontiolahti in 2007, I "knew" something was wrong there.
 
kingjr said:
Many years ago, he talked about the blood values he had at the WCH in Hochfilzen 2005, probably the point in his career where he was at his best, and those he mentioned were mediocre. Similar to mine if i remember correctly (so something like 42 % hct, 13.x g/dl).

Please note that Poiree at his best could rival him in terms of skiing speed, as well as Sven Fischer and Michael Greis. Andresen was equal to him and I daresay Berger was the fastest of them all, but these two always failed at the shooting range.

And if you would try to find out who is fastest by just looking at the technique of the athletes, without knowing anything about them, I'm pretty sure OEB, Andresen or Berger would be very high up there. You see, to me it always looked like these athletes were supposed to be fastest. If someone who is skiing like this gets the best times, then things can't be that wrong. Yaroshenko or Tcherezov on the other hand... When they were making the rest look silly in Kontiolahti in 2007, I "knew" something was wrong there.
Lars Berger has the best ski technique of those, and among the best ski techniques of anybody.

How he doesn't claw his eyes out watching his sister spewing snow three feet in the air as she stomps around the course with Johaug-like turnover and M?hlegg-like efficiency I don't know.

Best skater around atm is Domracheva. Either gender, XC, NoCo or biathlon, there's a damn good reason everybody always raves about her technique.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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^^you are misplacing the esthetics of a technique for its efficiency. sometimes they mean the same thing, sometimes not...moreover, some seemingly poor techniques are demonstrated by the remarkably successful skiers - northug and vyleg among them.

i would also not be as far reaching as you - across several sports, both genders and with different requirements to boot - by nominating dasha as a single mostest bestestest skater. we all love watching dasha, but i would nominate manificat or roethe or cologna, for instance, as among the most efficient skaters atm.

the true analysis of a technique efficiency require slow motion, scrupulous analysis of angles of propulsion, the center of gravity shifting motion etc, etc...none can be done accurately from a tv broadcast.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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kingjr said:
Many years ago, he talked about the blood values he had at the WCH in Hochfilzen 2005, probably the point in his career where he was at his best, and those he mentioned were mediocre. Similar to mine if i remember correctly (so something like 42 % hct, 13.x g/dl).

Please note that Poiree at his best could rival him in terms of skiing speed, as well as Sven Fischer and Michael Greis. Andresen was equal to him and I daresay Berger was the fastest of them all, but these two always failed at the shooting range.

And if you would try to find out who is fastest by just looking at the technique of the athletes, without knowing anything about them, I'm pretty sure OEB, Andresen or Berger would be very high up there. You see, to me it always looked like these athletes were supposed to be fastest. If someone who is skiing like this gets the best times, then things can't be that wrong. Yaroshenko or Tcherezov on the other hand... When they were making the rest look silly in Kontiolahti in 2007, I "knew" something was wrong there.
Nobody could rival Ole at his top form. Not even those you named.
The value of Hb you've mentioned is mostly under average for male.

Anyway, Domracheva hes great technique, but you'd find others...both Boe's :) Hellner, Northug of the head...and I think more have comparable technique. To be fast isn't only about technique and even athletes with lesser technique can have great technique - like Lesser. (joke)
 
python said:
^^you are misplacing the esthetics of a technique for its efficiency. sometimes they mean the same thing, sometimes not...moreover, some seemingly poor techniques are demonstrated by the remarkably successful skiers - northug and vyleg among them.

i would also not be as far reaching as you - across several sports, both genders and with different requirements to boot - by nominating dasha as a single mostest bestestest skater. we all love watching dasha, but i would nominate manificat or roethe or cologna, for instance, as among the most efficient skaters atm.

the true analysis of a technique efficiency require slow motion, scrupulous analysis of angles of propulsion, the center of gravity shifting motion etc, etc...none can be done accurately from a tv broadcast.
Of course there are some who succeed despite their techniques, but that wasn't how I read the discussion. I mean, I referred to the Berger siblings, who are an extreme example, since Tora was, at least later in her career, among the strongest skiers on the scene, but her skate technique was, compared to her brother's, wastefully inefficient and relied mainly on fast turnover and power through some very staccato motions, while Lars was much more flowing and efficient.

R?the is a good call though. I do like watching him.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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python said:
^^you are misplacing the esthetics of a technique for its efficiency. sometimes they mean the same thing, sometimes not...moreover, some seemingly poor techniques are demonstrated by the remarkably successful skiers - northug and vyleg among them.

i would also not be as far reaching as you - across several sports, both genders and with different requirements to boot - by nominating dasha as a single mostest bestestest skater. we all love watching dasha, but i would nominate manificat or roethe or cologna, for instance, as among the most efficient skaters atm.

the true analysis of a technique efficiency require slow motion, scrupulous analysis of angles of propulsion, the center of gravity shifting motion etc, etc...none can be done accurately from a tv broadcast.
Mostly I share your opinion, only I don't think NOrthug is bad skater. Quite on the contrary, he's been built for skating.

Regarding technique and Berger siblings one can't see one thing: maybe there people who can't have good technique. You need good physiology for start.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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peloton said:
Falun WC starts today, good times :)
it may have started in sweden and elsewhere, but not in norway :)...b/c the nrk, unlike eurosport, did not consider wasting its air time on the qualifying races.

perhaps for a good reason. i just watched the girls finish. their differences in finish time in relation to their technique were so huge, that it was possible by just looking at them to predict WHO will make into top 10 and who will not.

@kokoso
i know that my opninion of northug's skating is not shared by most. incidentally, i think his pronounced forward-leaning style is in part the reason for his unparallelled acceleration, which, under other circumstances, like steep longish hills, may be his achilles heel.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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kingjr said:
Many years ago, he talked about the blood values he had at the WCH in Hochfilzen 2005, probably the point in his career where he was at his best, and those he mentioned were mediocre. Similar to mine if i remember correctly (so something like 42 % hct, 13.x g/dl).
That Hct is low limit (under average you can say) too. I doubt that Pobryndalen can have such values.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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MrRoboto said:
Andresen wasn't far off Bj?rndalen's pace in the 2002 olympics.
I've always thought that biathlon is about skiing AND shooting. Andresen was never good at shooting. You know, it can be that if he skied slower, he could shoot better. Maybe Bjorndalen could could skate even faster, but than he'd shoot like Andresen.
 
Kokoso said:
That Hct is low limit (under average you can say) too. I doubt that Pobryndalen can have such values.
And that's what he more or less said himself in the interview. Just the other way round, he talked about his blood values, and with those he has, he shouldn't be be able to be that fast, in theory.

I'm recalling that from memory of an interview I read 8 years ago, so I might have got some details wrong, but I'm sure I remember the essence of it correctly.

And as a response to your latest post, then Bjoerndalen would always be at his strongest on his last lap wouldn't he? Truth is, it doesn't quite work like that. You'd think in his almost 20-year long career, Andresen would have tried out if going slower would enable him to shoot better.
 
Shardi said:
Northug... wow.

If there has previously been a XC-skiing definition of: 'Riding like a boss'

... then I believe that was just now replaced. Hats off.
Should we be suspicious? As far as the race itself, he knew he actually had to do what he very rarely does, lead early and keep the pace high. He probably knew that Kriukov is the best double poler/finisher on the circuit right now (you saw how quickly Kriukov was moving in the last 200 meters of the race). He cut Kriukov off on the first big climb and then took off. At that point Kriukov lost momentum and never fully recovered. Had Kriukov won this and defended his title, it would have been unprecedented. Sprinters don't hang around the top for 5 straight championships very often.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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here's what i found remarkable (if not suspicious) about yesterday's men sprints...not the fact that northug won that sprints -that after all is almost normal. neither the tactic he used, which indeed was smart to attack from far away.. but the power of recovery and the pace intensity he was able to sustain in 4 heats.

to remind, in his 1/4 and semifinals, the pace was substantially faster than in others AND (which is critical in any sprint series success) he had much less time to recover since he raced later, than several of his competitors.

in one word, much more intensity at much shorter recovery against world's best is either extraordinary or extraterrestrial. you pick.
 

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