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Doping in XC skiing

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May 19, 2010
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More leaks of the Taschler/Ferrari conversations:

http://www.salto.bz/article/20012015/occhio-das-ist-eine-straftat

Michele Ferrari: "Occhio hey, you know that ... .. is better not to keep in the house. It is a criminal offense. Did not some other place? ..... Now it is outside so nice and fresh, so you can .... important is that it does not freeze. I do not hide it under the earth or under leaves. Watch out, do not let it in the house. Do not you have another place where ....

Daniel Taschler: No, I keep it in the house, that does not matter ...

Ferrari: Is not there a place that is not the icebox and where the temperature is between zero and ten degrees ....

Taschler: No, I keep it in the house and well ...

Ferrari: Now that it's cold ..... is important that it does not freeze, it does not go to ten degrees below zero, then it does not fit ... But if it is between zero and ten degrees, then goes it well. The best would be under leaves, I do not know if you have a basement or a woodshed ... if you have a log holder (legnaia), it is also good, then you can leave it there. "

They have taps from Ferraris van where he talks with Daniel Taschler, and they are beyond any doubt talking about doping. For Gottlieb Tashler they have phone taps where he sets up the meeting for his son.
 
...and within a week we have confirmation that that Ukraine all-dopers-get-lifetime-ban-from-the-national-team announcement is complete garbage.

Cloxxki said:
Comes across as a Sednev-specific ruling. Did he play them over with that retirement? Sure made them look silly.

Libertine Seguros said:
Let's wait to see if they put Natalya Burdyga on the startlist in Antholz then...

26 BURDYGA Natalya UKR 14:43:00
 
Isn't it possibly that the top-50 of XC is consistently but moderately doping, as to not get caught out by feet-dragging anti-doping initiatives?
The ones getting caught are the impatient (stupid) ones (Dürr) and those with lots of haters (Russia) or internal competition to make the team (Russia).

It's interesting to me that Petter Northug DOES have the engine to win a brutal 15k individual, but not to keep up on Alpe Cermis. Does that simply come down to his naturally low cadence in all he does on skis? Too long steps, especially with his tall body, to keep lactate acid under control?
Being build much like P. Northug myself, just a bit bulkier and lankier, I don't like the notion that height or body weight restricts climbing capacity. If anything, the too short skis (less than body height) which imo are a slight drag (pun) at higher speeds, are easier to handle at 8km/u uphill.

With obviously and proven doping going on, it's impossible for me to see the sport being clean. The dopers are at times outliers, but not in a big or too obvious way. Do only also-rans dope to get up to the top level momentarily? Not one top skier doping to ski away from everyone else? More likely they are all on moderate doping with a few clean outlier talents mixing it up. An also-ran doping hard (Dürr) gets his moment of glory, but is then purged by the sport he overstepped.
Just a theory.
 
neineinei said:
Dürr was caught by IOC.

FIS doesn't like to catch anyone, except maybe Finns. They are not catching loads of Russians like IBU or IAAF.

If the top Russians in XC like Ustiugov, Belov, Legkov, Chernousov, etc are doping (I am not disputing either way), then guys like Cologna are definitely doping. Not because Cologna has generally had more success than them (Ustiugov and Belov are still relatively new to full-time WC racing, and time will only tell with them...) but because he has been coached by the exact same coaches as those guys I have mentioned, particularly Legkov and Chernousov: Knauthe, Burgermeister and Kramer (former German and Swiss coach and also Johan Muehlegg's old coach).

Time will also tell on widespread doping in IBU and IAAF. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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BullsFan22 said:
Knauthe, Burgermeister and Kramer (former German and Swiss coach and also Johan Muehlegg's old coach).

...
in a way, the 'clean' perception these european coaches exude, is the opposite of their domestic coaches reputations.

it could all be a complete sham, but when they extend rich contracts to the germans, swiss, norwegians they are sending a message to the fis anti-dopers, 'look, we are trying hard to break away with the past.. our best are trained now by the same europeans as 'your' best...' particularly with cherno being trained by a norwegian...

for all i know, it could be as serious an effort as it looks genuine. their 'kaminskis and perevozchikovs' are now pressed into a competition to produced the results, or face forced retirements.

and take a look at the today's results in rybinsk -4 of the top 5 are either current or former burgemeister russians.

a more sophisticated doping program aside, personally, i dont know what exactly burgermeister can offer them training-wise, the russians don't already know:confused:

one thing that i picked up from several of their interviews (cherno for instance) is that euro coaches are better at teaching self-awareness. things like, health fragility, recovery, over-training, race planning, nutrition...

reto himself was never caught doping, but he did have a vacation for a high hmg once, iirc.
 
May 16, 2012
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BullsFan22 said:
If the top Russians in XC like Ustiugov, Belov, Legkov, Chernousov, etc are doping (I am not disputing either way), then guys like Cologna are definitely doping. Not because Cologna has generally had more success than them (Ustiugov and Belov are still relatively new to full-time WC racing, and time will only tell with them...) but because he has been coached by the exact same coaches as those guys I have mentioned, particularly Legkov and Chernousov: Knauthe, Burgermeister and Kramer (former German and Swiss coach and also Johan Muehlegg's old coach).

Time will also tell on widespread doping in IBU and IAAF. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Maybe if russians did train some technique they would gain more out of the doping. Which coaches are you talking about? I thought Cologna had some norwegian guy..
 
melkemugg said:
Maybe if russians did train some technique they would gain more out of the doping. Which coaches are you talking about? I thought Cologna had some norwegian guy..

Knauthe and Kramer are former Cologna coaches. Which is one of the reasons why Cologna has trained with Legkov and Chernousov when they are in Switzerland. I think Fredrik Aukland was the Swiss coach for a while. I don't think he is there anymore. Not sure what the new guy's name is. He is also Norwegian, btw.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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cologna's current coach is ivan hudac, a slovakian, who took over from guri hetland, a norwegian. curiously, not all xc fans realize that guri is a frau....

hetland is credited with the creative training methods that allowed dario to recover from his injuries in time for the sochi olympics. for all we know, aukland, also a norwegian, is still dario's personal/private coach.

for whatever reason, some top skiers aren't keen on advertising who they work privately with. legkov, would be another example of such as, after leaving reto, he stubbornly refused to name the coach who's designing his training routines.

i don't necessarily see any nefarious reasons in that.
 
python said:
cologna's current coach is ivan hudac, a slovakian, who took over from guri hetland, a norwegian. curiously, not all xc fans realize that guri is a frau....

hetland is credited with the creative training methods that allowed dario to recover from his injuries in time for the sochi olympics. for all we know, aukland, also a norwegian, is still dario's personal/private coach.

for whatever reason, some top skiers aren't keen on advertising who they work privately with. legkov, would be another example of such as, after leaving reto, he stubbornly refused to name the coach who's designing his training routines.

i don't necessarily see any nefarious reasons in that.


Ok. This should clear things up for you:

http://instagram.com/p/sK1jnMHiaH/?modal=true

The gentleman on the right is Alexander Legkov. The gentleman in the middle is Markus Cramer, former Cologna, Swiss national team and German national team coach and current Legkov coach (or at least the one that writes Legkov's training plan). The gentleman on the right is Dario Cologna.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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BullsFan22 said:
Ok. This should clear things up for you:

http://instagram.com/p/sK1jnMHiaH/?modal=true

The gentleman on the right is Alexander Legkov. The gentleman in the middle is Markus Cramer, former Cologna, Swiss national team and German national team coach and current Legkov coach (or at least the one that writes Legkov's training plan). The gentleman on the right is Dario Cologna.
what exactly did this old picture clear ? melkemugg brought up an issue of cologna being associated with norwegian coaches. that's what my post was about. i pointed to his current swiss team head coach and the likely private coach. kramers's role in the past is no secret. his role in training cologna NOW is an unknown and in training legkov is a supposition that legkov himself refused to comment on.
 
Guys...The article talks about 3 people having tested positive for steroids, then about 3 *other* people being caught for having imported steroids and EPO.


Edit: If you are interested in details, you can see Antidoping Norge's list of verdicts here:
http://www.antidoping.no/dopingkontroll/dopingkontroll/dommer-oversikt/
The 3 latest cases involving testing positive for steroids is a powerlifter and a couple of wrestlers. The smuggling cases involve 3 middle aged cyclists.
 
May 19, 2010
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The EPO cases are older, and they were reported to Antidoping Norge by the Police, not the other way around. (Wrote about it here.) Amateur cyclists had their parcels with doping products stopped by customs. They are listed with "innf?rsel" in the ADD's list here. - Male cyclist born 1972 + Male cyclist born 1977. There is also a Male cyclist born 1971 who had his Prasterone seised by customs.

The 3 who had their doping use reported to the police after they had tested positive are probably also listed among the verdicts from last year. There are nine anabolic steroid positives listed: 3 from powerlifting, 1 from boxing, 2 from football, 2 from wrestling, and 1 from "american sports", whatever that is. The testosterone positive female cyclist is Nina G?ssler.

So probably no cases from cross country. Just like there aren't any on Riksidrottsf?rbundets list.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Armchaircyclist said:
----------
I guess you did not read the whole thing. In the end they mention that these are not elite athletes. We're talking about doping to beat your neighbour, or win your age-group here. How sad is that ?
i guess, you don't know the norwegian national stamp - the doping, any doping, is culturally unacceptable in norway. period.

how sad could it be that it does happen and did happen ? in norway, nonetheless? that the professional athletes have infinitely more ways to be protected or to avoid the stupid mistakes of their amatteur compatriots, is of course, unthinkable in a culture that considers doping unthinkable...how sad is that ?
 

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