Doping in XC skiing

[Pazuzu]

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Interesting, what I read was that she visualized herself as BEING THE TIGER !

You're right, I had got it backwards. She's the tiger, which I suppose is even better.

 

[Kokoso]

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Northug also left his lightly injured friend behind in the car, while escaping in hope of getting away with it. Even though drunk, not exactly a plus for his character.

Well he couldn't know how seriously wonded is his friend. And one would argue if broken collarbone is minor injury.

 

[Discgear]

of course, everyone knows/knew of northug's drunken escapades, but i did not know that sundby was also convicted of drunk driving i'd be interested in reading more...

In this thread it's possible to find some more information. J S was 20 back in late 2004. Another skier was injured and J S was punished with two weeks behind bars.

..and getting to your other point - the societal total wow at any even a slightest hint of doping. one has to wonder (and i'm hardly being original here), if protecting against or covering up for the 'never experiencing the wow' has become an integral part of defending the status operandi ?

That is such a relevant question!

 

[Erythropoietin]

As a Norwegian, it really annoys me how naive the general public is about doping. Norway totally dominates the sport, but there's still this belief that only the eastern Europeans dope. LOL...

 

[markene2]

As a Norwegian, it really annoys me how naive the general public is about doping. Norway totally dominates the sport, but there's still this belief that only the eastern Europeans dope. LOL...

It's the typical Norwegian though! They all think it's about moral and ethics. When Bengt Saltin released his documentary and questioned the blood values of the Norwegian skiiers, there was almost a national outrage...

 

[Erythropoietin]

It's the typical Norwegian though! They all think it's about moral and ethics. When Bengt Saltin released his documentary and questioned the blood values of the Norwegian skiiers, there was almost a national outrage...

Norwegians care a lot about freedom of speech when it comes to drawing Mohammed and things like that, but claiming that our national heroes use drugs is haram / strictly forbidden.

Personally, I would dope hard with a clear conscience because I understand how the game works

 

[Walkman]

Norwegians care a lot about freedom of speech when it comes to drawing Mohammed and things like that, but claiming that our national heroes use drugs is haram / strictly forbidden.

Personally, I would dope hard with a clear consciencebecause I understand how the game works

Congratulations, you represent everything that is wrong with pro sports.

 

[Walkman]

She also started working with a sports psychologist who had her visualize being chased by a tiger.

This is actually nothing new, nor it is any hocus pocus, if you can apply yourself in such a manner that is required.

Per Elofsson did it back in his days, although he said it was one of the factors leading to his non recoverable physical breakdown.

 

[neineinei]

Norwegians care a lot about freedom of speech when it comes to drawing Mohammed and things like that, but claiming that our national heroes use drugs is haram / strictly forbidden.

Personally, I would dope hard with a clear conscience because I understand how the game works

Haram has never been much or a winter sport place.

 

[Erythropoietin]

Congratulations, you represent everything that is wrong with pro sports.

No, the problem is people like you who have zero knowledge of how things work. The fact is that drug tests are useless. The proof is in guys like Michael Rasmussen who used 10 different drugs for years while passing more than a hundred drug tests. Drug tests being ****ing useless means that the riders HAVE TO dope to be competitive. And when everyone does it, you don't have to feel bad about it because you're not actually cheating, it's a level playing field.

Do you understand now? Of course you don't, that's the problem.

 

[neineinei]

http://www.biathlon.com.ua/print.php?lang=eng&id=6400

The Ukranian Biathlon Federation has descided that (bi)athletes found guilty of doping will be denied the right to be included in the national team of Ukraine in the future.

They seem to think Sednev will get a two year ban (pre 2015 CODE).

 

[Pazuzu]

No, the problem is people like you who have zero knowledge of how things work. The fact is that drug tests are useless. The proof is in guys like Michael Rasmussen who used 10 different drugs for years while passing more than a hundred drug tests. Drug tests being ****ing useless means that the riders HAVE TO dope to be competitive. And when everyone does it, you don't have to feel bad about it because you're not actually cheating, it's a level playing field.

So the biological passport, that's worthless too?

 

[TomasC]

No, the problem is people like you who have zero knowledge of how things work. The fact is that drug tests are useless. The proof is in guys like Michael Rasmussen who used 10 different drugs for years while passing more than a hundred drug tests. Drug tests being ****ing useless means that the riders HAVE TO dope to be competitive. And when everyone does it, you don't have to feel bad about it because you're not actually cheating, it's a level playing field.

Do you understand now? Of course you don't, that's the problem.

Is that you, Lance?

 

[Cloxxki]

http://www.biathlon.com.ua/print.php?lang=eng&id=6400

The Ukranian Biathlon Federation has descided that (bi)athletes found guilty of doping will be denied the right to be included in the national team of Ukraine in the future.

They seem to think Sednev will get a two year ban (pre 2015 CODE).

Comes across as a Sednev-specific ruling. Did he play them over with that retirement? Sure made them look silly.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Let's wait to see if they put Natalya Burdyga on the startlist in Antholz then...

 

[python]

a news flash...

my dislike of northug is an open secret.

yet, petter northug, if he ever doped, isn't giving the doping clues through his almost a decade-long performances in the tour de ski...

to the point, i did some pretty boring number crunching (compared him to the top 10 performances in a given stage) and came to a conclusion - if he doped it did NOT show as an outlier - the well accepted method in statistical analysis.

to summarize, his performances were quire predictable from year to year and were amazingly consistent when he was compared to himself and to the best performing on a given day....

the same, i could not say about some other performances, which clearly stood out and some later were proven doping...

...will not bother any further unless there is a reasoned objection p)

 

[BullsFan22]

a news flash...

my dislike of northug is an open secret.

yet, petter northug, if he ever doped, isn't giving the doping clues through his almost a decade-long performances in the tour de ski...

to the point, i did some pretty boring number crunching (compared him to the top 10 performances in a given stage) and came to a conclusion - if he doped it did NOT show as an outlier - the well accepted method in statistical analysis.

to summarize, his performances were quire predictable from year to year and were amazingly consistent when he was compared to himself and to the best performing on a given day....

the same, i could not say about some other performances, which clearly stood out and some later were proven doping...

...will not bother any further unless there is a reasoned objection p)

Which ones?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

In the Tour de Ski? Johannes Dürr, for one...

 

[hoerpi]

In the Tour de Ski? Johannes Dürr, for one...

That was one of the most obvious cases I've seen.

 

[python]

Which ones?

as was noted, the most outrageously blatant (i'll go into some details later) - duerr, sergej SHIRIAEV and potentially another skier i respect greatly for whom the data crunching raises some suspicions but only mildly so...

first, few words on what i did (keep in mind, it was more a fun project, than solid science..)

unlike in some other endurance sports, xc racing offers almost no opportunity to reliably compare performances, such as, for instance in the athletics, running on a 400 m lap, or a climbing tt in cycling...all because of the infinite variability of conditions (even within the same race). there is only one event in the fis calendar where such comparisons can be made - and even then very carefully where apples shall always be compared to apples.

it is alpe cermis - or, more specifically, only its climbing part which continuously goes up for over 400 m in 2.8 km. a note has to be made - the stage and the climb have not always been the same. only starting in 2011 it was exactly the same course and climb as today.

why alpe cermis was fitting the project ?...b/c it's skating, where waxing is less of an issue than in classic and that is a relatively similar to all, b/c it's almost entirely work against gravity with only minor contributions from snow friction and air drag.. b/c, if the things kept natural, the mountain, like in cycling but less so, favours a lighter build.

what did i find ?

..that northug almost on any given year was slower than the hill winner by an amazingly consistent 6-7% (spread: 6.3 to 7.9%). to give you a rough reference - in cycling w/kg equivalents, 2-3 blood bags would take care of the difference.

..that duerr' 2014 superiority was ugly/unreal/never seen since or before... he climbed a whopping 45 sec faster than his runner up babikov, while the difference btwn babikov (2nd) and the 11th (moriggle) was only 26 sec. the typical 10th to 1st average difference was 40 something seconds. always under 60 sec...

as for SHIRIAEV, i swear my analysis picked him up...only after the flag i googled him - sure enough, busted for epo..

the other skier i mentioned i believe has doped through the earlier part of his career but later stopped...if my mild evidence was added to some other rumours/weak evidence, together the become weightier...

 

[TomasC]

as was noted, the most outrageously blatant (i'll go into some details later) - duerr, sergej SHIRIAEV and potentially another skier i respect greatly for whom the data crunching raises some suspicions but only mildly so...

first, few words on what i did (keep in mind, it was more a fun project, than solid science..)

unlike in some other endurance sports, xc racing offers almost no opportunity to reliably compare performances, such as, for instance in the athletics, running on a 400 m lap, or a climbing tt in cycling...all because of the infinite variability of conditions (even within the same race). there is only one event in the fis calendar where such comparisons can be made - and even then very carefully where apples shall always be compared to apples.

it is alpe cermis - or, more specifically, only its climbing part which continuously goes up for over 400 m in 2.8 km. a note has to be made - the stage and the climb have not always been the same. only starting in 2011 it was exactly the same course and climb as today.

why alpe cermis was fitting the project ?...b/c it's skating, where waxing is less of an issue than in classic and that is a relatively similar to all, b/c it's almost entirely work against gravity with only minor contributions from snow friction and air drag.. b/c, if the things kept natural, the mountain, like in cycling but less so, favours a lighter build.

what did i find ?

..that northug almost on any given year was slower than the hill winner by an amazingly consistent 6-7% (spread: 6.3 to 7.9%). to give you a rough reference - in cycling w/kg equivalents, 2-3 blood bags would take care of the difference.

..that duerr' 2014 superiority was ugly/unreal/never seen since or before... he climbed a whopping 45 sec faster than his runner up babikov, while the difference btwn babikov (2nd) and the 11th (moriggle) was only 26 sec. the typical 10th to 1st average difference was 40 something seconds. always under 60 sec...

as for SHIRIAEV, i swear my analysis picked him up...only after the flag i googled him - sure enough, busted for epo..

the other skier i mentioned i believe has doped through the earlier part of his career but later stopped...if my mild evidence was added to some other rumours/weak evidence, together the become weightier...

Bauer?
So according to Python Passport, Duerr, Shiriaev and Mr. X are the only ones that doped for Alpe Cermis? Is it not actually a good sign?

 

[python]

Bauer?
So according to Python Passport, Duerr, Shiriaev and Mr. X are the only ones that doped for Alpe Cermis? Is it not actually a good sign?

you must have experienced a very serious blow back during your brain fart

pls point where in my clearly framed and careful statements i spouted the nonesense you did but attributed to me ? dont take it personal ))

 

[TomasC]

you must have experienced a very serious blow back during your brain fart

pls point where in my clearly framed and careful statements i spouted the nonesense you did but attributed to me ? dont take it personal ))

With the benefit of hindsight, my post does sound sarcastic which sometimes happen when my brain does the thing you mention in your 1st paragraph.
Sorry, that was not the intention and I appreciate the work you put into it.

Seriously, were these the only ones that came across as suspicious?

But really, "python passport" sounds great, doesn't it?

 

[python]

With the benefit of hindsight, my post does sound sarcastic which sometimes happen when my brain does the thing you mention in your 1st paragraph.
Sorry, that was not the intention and I appreciate the work you put into it.

i fully except and understand your explanation...just like i sometimes overreact. i did overreact to your post. it happens particularly, after what i thought was carefully phrased (and invested an effort to write it down) NOT to be taken wrongly or too far.

Seriously, were these the only ones that came across as suspicious?

But really, "python passport" sounds great, doesn't it?

when i started, my little project, i had only one goal - to try to discern if there was anything variable enough in northug's performances, that could be interpreted as suspicious. the uci, fis, the athletics feds, ibu..all use the performance variability to sharpen their target dope testing. i dislike petter. but i like the sport a lot more and respect myself enough to try use facts instead of unsupported claims great athletes don't deserve sometimes.

so, what i did, i downloaded ALL alpe cermis pdf's still available at the fis data base. my original intention was to 'process' top 20 by placing them in a spread sheet. i then realized that it was too much work for the limited goal (to analyze one athlete) i was interested in. so i only worked with the top 10 AND the northug results.

to answer your question directly, while processing only northug's results, i came across other outliers...iow, what i found about duerr and shiriaev and perhaps someone else was CO_INCIDENTAL rather than the result of an effort to filter ALL suspicious results.

furthermore, b/c i limited myself to only top 10, while btwn 40 to 50+ took part in the climb each year, i could not have found other performances as suspicions, b/c i simply did not look there.

to be sure, i suspect some other skiers. not from the project but from the wider following of the sport.. none of them have happened to be the outliers in my foolish little project or they did not take part in the sufficient # of alpe cermis climbs, like northug did (in ALL!), to present any meaningful data...

is the sport cleaning ? from where i am, it is impossible to answer honestly. and i am in no way politically involved to lie on anyone's behalf.

i do think that some very sophisticated doping is still taking place. it is a common sense assumption. it is based on the way people behave, the realization that the testing is ALWAYS behind the smartest/best prepared and that there is some very serious political crap taking place (to cover some and to scape goat others). the east europeans imo are disproportionally caught NOT b/c others don't dope.

 

[Kokoso]

So even doped Northug can't climb Alpe Cermis, that's what python's passport says.