Doping in XC skiing

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Pretty exciting to see Northug ski in the pack for 49,8km and then outsprint everyone that actually did work and make the race happen. It's a shame. Doping or not. I am sure NeiNeiNei and ToreBear can barely contain themselves right now...
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Worst track conditions I've seen since the 80s. The Swedes really didn't succeed with the track preparation this championship.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Alleged training hours of some XC skiers.

Bjorgen: 900-1000 h [1]

Johaug: 900-1000 h [1] Used to be over 1000 but reduced to 900 ("I'll go down a little in quantity, and focus more on having quality at every session") [4]

Kalla: 830 h in 2012-13. Probably increased since then ("I need to train more" - Kalla). [1]

Elofsson: More than 800 h [2]

Weng: 700 h 2012-13, 750 h 2013-14. [3] Coach says the goal is to reach at least 800 h in the future. [4]

Sundby: 980 h 2013-14, 1150 h 2014-15 [5]

Halfvarsson: 750-800 h [6]

Northug: "trained much more than normal as a junior" and "is able to cope with an enormous training load" [7]

Fredriksson: "Most train around 800 h" [8]

Halfvarsson on Sundby:

F?r mig l?ter det helt galet att han tr?nar ?ver 1 000 [it sounds crazy that he trains more than 1 000 h]. Jag kommer att landa n?gonstans mellan 750-800 timmar [I will train 750-800h]. Vi ligger p? gr?nsen [we're at the limit] och av de ryktena som man h?rt om honom ska det i princip vara om?jligt f?r kroppen att ?terh?mta sig [if the rumours about him are true it should be impossible for the body to recover]. Eller s? f?r du bara vara ute och inte ha n?gon intensitet [unless he's just out there with no intensity], men d? tror jag p? att kort ner passen och k?ra lite h?rdare [but I believe in shorter more intense workouts], s?ger svensken.

Fredriksson on Sundby:

Jag tror inte att han tr?nar s? mycket [I don't believe he trains that much], jag tror mer att han s?ger det f?r jag tror inte att han klarar det. Det ?r nog mer en skr?na som han vill f? ut i media [it's a tale he tells the media]. Att tr?na s? mycket tror jag inte p?, s?ger han i SVT och forts?tter:
? S? mycket mer ?n 800 tr?ningstimmar tror jag ingen g?r [I don't believe anyone trains that much more than 800 h]. Det ?r klart om man r?knar med n?r man stretchar och knyter skorna kan man l?tt f? timmar [you can get easily get hours by counting when you stretch and tie your shoe laces]. Men ?ver tusen d? r?knar man nog med n?r man k?r bil till tr?ningen ocks? [but to get over 1 000 you probably have to count the drive to training as well].
 
Mar 4, 2010
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dukoff approves of Therese's epic body fat %.

johaug.jpg


johaugsmuskler.jpg
 
Tyler'sTwin said:
dukoff approves of Therese's epic body fat %.

johaug.jpg


johaugsmuskler.jpg

At least she doesn't carry around a bucket of muscle her competitions doesn't.
I'd dated girls that were dry like that, just from genes. 1m58, 40kg.
Working as a docter in the hospital. Good eater for her weight. Just the occasional gym routine in front of the TV.
Some people are just skinny, like their parents.

Ski racers don't really have a reason to dope to get skinny in the summer, I would think. Like a TdF contender doesn't need to in the fall or winter unless gravely in trouble.

I would suspect blood bags and EPO before anything else with Johaug. But she isn't as suspect as some fellow countrywomen who can sprint and not tire. Or look like a heavyweight bodybuilder and then win 30k's.
 
Johaug is slight yes. But don't call Kalla chubby before you've seen Neuner in her prime. It would take a VERY trained eye to spot her at the beach as a world class endurance athlete if you didn't recognize her face.
Johaug being a 30K specialist and Kalla 10K while able to play a role in sprints does make us expect some differences of course.
 
Discgear said:
So, did you enjoy the race? Quit interested to hear about your holistic approach to Kalla and why you find her suspicious, or is she suspicious because she's the only one with some competitive edge against the red army? Quite amazing race today. To see Johaug smash all competition with her horrible energy wasting technique, challenged by nobody except another lady with a body like an American male sprinter.
I found her suspicious mainly because of the team she is on. She was one of those I was least suspicious of.

You see the Swedish team peaking every four years, their incredible performance at altitude etc all made me very concerned last year. With Kalla on another level at the start of last year I wanted to rule her out first. Her performance in the 30k was more or less similar to last year at Holmenkollen. Although a bit better, which is to be expected from a year of training.

Why suspecting the Swedes? I have no suspicions on the younger members of the team eg(Calle and Stina). My suspicion is in part based on some snippets of information.

Fis anti doping and it's predecessor had a Swede at the helm from the early nineties until 2006.
When Saltins suspicion list came out without a Swede with some type of illness giving weird numbers wich some say was not possible with this Ilness I raised an eyebrow. When this Norwegian skier is on the list, but his increase in hgb seems to correlate exactly with the competition altitiude, and knowing that recently the UCI said they avoided testing at altitude because of measurement reliability problems, and not the above mentioned skier, my mind starts to churn. Add that to the lackluster financing of Anti Doping in Sweden. I'm not a believer in conspiracies, but I have to rule them out. I haven't proceeded much in my theorizing since I'm more focused on gathering more information.

Johaug did not have a horrible energy wasting technique on the 30k. Could it be you don't like people questioning Swedes?
As I said before, today I'm totally convinced that the Norwegian success during the 90s was due to illegal medical use. I have always refused to think that doping is a part of their current success. But what really ****es me off, is the constant questioning from Norwegian media as soon as anyone else seem to be competitive. Swedes excluded of course, since they are untouchables.

You must have read quite a bit of this since it ****es you off. I can not remember the Norwegian media questioning other nations performances. Could you provide some links, or is this some kind of straw man argumentation because you are annoyed about something?
The Swedes got away with two golds but both of those wins was very much due to weather, starting numbers and extremely good material. Today, visibly superior skis for Kalla didn't help much against a Johaug with endless energy resources.
I think Kalla would have won the 10k either way. As for her skis. I suspect you were misled by the glide you saw on the downhill into the stadium. Also skis deteriorate and they change skis. Eg Bj?rgens first skis were bad, but the second pair were good.
 
May 19, 2010
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The top Swedes are in the same bio passport program as the top Norwegians, Russians, Finns, Swiss, Poles, Austrian, Germans, Italians, Kazakhs etc. etc. The FIS anti doping program which tested Erik Brandsdal once out of competition in 2015 are keeping the Swedes clean too.

2351961.jpg

Rasmus thought it best to not let WADA or the national anti doping authorities get hold of the blood values from the 2011 Worlds through ADAMS, so he let the commercial anti doping agency PWC do the blood testing and kept the data to himself.
 
neineinei said:
The top Swedes are in the same bio passport program as the top Norwegians, Russians, Finns, Swiss, Poles, Austrian, Germans, Italians, Kazakhs etc. etc. The FIS anti doping program which tested Erik Brandsdal once out of competition in 2015 are keeping the Swedes clean too.
Are you sure ADN and FIS share their profiles? I used to assume they did through ADAMS, but lately I've begun to question that assumption.

Rasmus thought it best to not let WADA or the national anti doping authorities get hold of the blood values from the 2011 Worlds through ADAMS, so he let the commercial anti doping agency PWC do the blood testing and kept the data to himself.
Why did he do that? Do you have any links with more information?
 
Dec 31, 2011
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Tyler'sTwin said:
dukoff approves of Therese's epic body fat %.

Indeed, she certainly deserves a tribute, or two;

http://i.imgur.com/vTNGDkL.png

Proper work she put down since the 2012-season, adding some decent muscle and overall strength.

Not to say her technique, although not that intuitive to her, it's massively improved.
 
dukoff said:
Indeed, she certainly deserves a tribute, or two;

http://i.imgur.com/vTNGDkL.png

Proper work she put down since the 2012-season, adding some decent muscle and overall strength.

Not to say her technique, although not that intuitive to her, it's massively improved.

I know a similarly built lady 800m runner who does like her weights with similar musculature and fat layer. Appreciate the visual difference between flexing the abs when poling vs gasping for air (is that what the pic shows?) after a workout.
IMO a world class athlete, even the fairer sexy, is allowed to have lean muscles visible. Clean women get them, too. If they live for the sport, skip the junk food and put in the hours.
Bjoergen is a different story. She hauls around muscles that would win body building competitions at a high level, and not in the fitness class, hardcore body mass bigger is better competitions. To win 30k's with crazy vertical meters. That's just not right.
Johaug has some visible muscles on her slight body. Which man doesn't want a girlfriend like that? She can't use the muscles to consistently quality for sprint races.
 
May 19, 2010
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Tyler'sTwin said:
I guess once OOC in 2015 sounds a bit worse than once OOC in a period of six weeks.

It sounds better than FIS not testing Finn H?gen Krogh once OOC in the six weeks leading up to the Falun worlds.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Cloxxki said:
Johaug has some visible muscles on her slight body. Which man doesn't want a girlfriend like that?

Me for example. I find it rather repulsing for lady to have such low body fat. That isn't sexy for me.

I have nothing against bigger boned girls, too.
 
Kokoso said:
Me for example. I find it rather repulsing for lady to have such low body fat. That isn't sexy for me.

I have nothing against bigger boned girls, too.

I'm glad to hear that. One fewer man to send Johaug a marriage proposal. If she's into boys at all.
Not to say I only like ultra toned women, curves do have their charmes (and health benefits) just as well. The 900 hours per year look is not my favorite, it gets boyish.
The yoga teacher veggie foodie look is nicer to me, be it slight or strong.

Main attraction to a suptle fat layer on a woman to me is the reduced distance to the core. The core radiates the soul, sight and touch. Fat dampens the connection both ways. A fat lady's smile can seem like a frown. Her skin is cold to the touch, insulated.
A chubby lady's behind is less defining/recognizable than a toned woman's abs.
 
Dec 31, 2011
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Cloxxki said:
..
Bjoergen is a different story. She hauls around muscles that would win body building competitions at a high level, and not in the fitness class, hardcore body mass bigger is better competitions. To win 30k's with crazy vertical meters. That's just not right.

For such a compact build and triangular frame as she naturally has, she looks just what can be expected with the heavy strength focus her training has.

Personal preferences are quite uninteresting. Athletically I think she looks great for her frame. Most of the competition hasn't fully appretiated the optimal level of strength for XC.

http://i.imgur.com/kys6ZpZ.jpg

If she kept pace with Johaug on the longest climbs, as close Johaug now is to her potential, that would require some explanation. But it's not the case. Up Alp Cermis she's been about a minute or more off. Many has done better than that.
 
dukoff said:
For such a compact build and triangular frame as she naturally has, she looks just what can be expected with the heavy strength focus her training has.

Personal preferences are quite uninteresting. Athletically I think she looks great for her frame. Most of the competition hasn't fully appretiated the optimal level of strength for XC.

http://i.imgur.com/kys6ZpZ.jpg

If she kept pace with Johaug on the longest climbs, as close Johaug now is to her potential, that would require some explanation. But it's not the case. Up Alp Cermis she's been about a minute or more off. Many has done better than that.
Alpe Cermis is a special case. It comes after a really hard 6k or so of flat skiing, and a long weeek of many races. Bjoergen has shown that that's her weakness perhaps more than the climbs themselves.
The way she's hung on to Johaug in epic 30K's where Johaug seems to be at her awesomest, I just cannot find a devil's advocate explanation to.
Both can and likely are part of a national doping program, but within it, Bjoergen is like Armstrong. Flexing her/her muscles up an Alpe and claiming to be oh so lightweight.
Her training pictures are charming. Pretty build. That awards picture as far as I know was undoctored (visually) and even if it's a one time moment of unwise exposure (light or public) it forces a list of questions.
OK, Johaug could dope. But to stick with the pace of a doped Johaug who is actually built for the long stufff and sukks at the short... There is just no scenario in which it's plausible. The puzzle pieces don't fit.
Like out-skiing EPO'd Russians and Italians in the 90's.