Doping in XC skiing

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30 K Holmenkollen, XC-skiing - some sport. Same experience as watching USA dream team meet Faroe Islands in a basketball game. Hilarious to see the final stage when two red dressed athletes - seemingly from two fundamentally different sports - be beyond competition with rest of the field. One with a body made for 100 m sprint and great technique, the other with a feather light body but with a horrendous skiing technique. Both absolutely smashing rest of the field. But Red Army's crowd, basically the only ones still watching this sorry excuse for a sport, seems to be pleased.
Norway
Norway
Norway
Fattie
Norway
Norway
Norway
Fattie
 
...and the summary of the World Cup 2015

2015 – Ladies
Norway
Norway
Norway
Norway
Norway
Norway
Fattie

Not since 1995 have we seen a similar dominance when Russia took the 5 first places. Which non-Norwegian companies will be stupid enough to sponsor this crap the next season?
 
Jul 15, 2012
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Singer01 said:
Discgear said:
Norway
Norway
Norway
Fattie
Norway
Norway
Norway
Fattie
I've only just started posting round here, but is this sort of language acceptable? seems ridiculously offensive to me, I may be missing some context though.
There is context upthread.
 
Feb 17, 2015
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Sorry for going off-topic but since there have been some discussions about how much skiers train I though I´d post this list. The Norwegian numbers are compiled from interviews in a paper prior to Falun.

The Swedish numbers are from various interviews during this season and not from the same paper as the Norwegian numbers are from. I have not made any of the list so i cant vouch for them obviously, for all I know the athletes could be pulling numbers out of their asses when answering the questions.

I have been told that swedes don't keep track of their strength training the same way the Norwegian does but I don't know if there is any truth to that claim.

Norwegian
Total
Johaug 1000
Björgen 950
Östberg 900
Jacobsen, Weng 800

High intensity training
Östberg 91
Johaug 75
Jacobsen 64
Björgen 47
Weng 40

Strenght and agility
Jacobsen 96
Björgen 95
Östberg 90
Johaug 65
Weng 60

Swedes
Women
Anna Haag 750
Charlotte Kalla 870
Emma Wikén 730
Ida Ingemarsdotter 750
Sofia Bleckur 750
Stina Nilsson 670
Jonna Sundling 650

Men
Calle Halvfarsson 750
Marcus Hellner 700-800
Emil Jönsson 800
Daniel Richardsson 800
Lars Nelson 750+
Teodor Petersson 900
 

Singer01

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Nov 18, 2013
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why are the norwegian women so shite at biathlon this year, anybody got any ideas? perhaps they should give some of their lesser cross country skiers a gun and see what happens. ***, heidi weng could probably shoot 7 of 10 and win most races.
 
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Singer01 said:
why are the norwegian women so shite at biathlon this year, anybody got any ideas? perhaps they should give some of their lesser cross country skiers a gun and see what happens. ****, heidi weng could probably shoot 7 of 10 and win most races.
Look at them over the last couple of years and then consider it's not much of a surprise.

Tora Berger was their main results-getter, she has retired.

The other two Norwegian women who had won races were Ann-Kristin Flatland, who's also retired, and Synnøve Solemdal, who's always ill or injured. She has had a Sleptsova-like fall from grace, but after having mono at the end of last season and having been plagued with health issues all summer it's not surprising that she wouldn't be able to capitalize on her form.

Tiril Eckhoff was 9th in the overall World Cup last season and 11th this year; however last year she only occasionally managed a podium, this year she's won races. She's also missed events due to illness, and has ended the season rather poorly; she started it as one of the very best though.

Fanny Horn, Elise Ringen, Marte Olsbu, Kaia Wøien Nicolaisen and Bente Landheim are not performing at unexpected levels for them. They are backup calibre and capable relay hands, but none are prospective team leaders. Of more concern is the lack of top quality juniors and that Hilde Fenne's development seems to have stalled.

If Eckhoff could have kept up her early season form and Solemdal could have been at a level something approaching the last couple of years we wouldn't be having this discussion of course, but really I think the Norwegian women's team has been sort of coasting on Berger's results and the relays have been being bailed out by her for a few years now, so we're seeing the inevitable result of losing her.

As for XC skiers coming in and winning every race with 7/10, I wouldn't be so fast. There are a couple more factors to take into account.

- the very best biathletes are capable of being pretty competitive in XC. Kaisa Mäkäräinen has several World Cup top 10s to her name in XC, Miriam Gössner has Olympic and World silver relay medals (in Liberec 2009, as an 18yo junior biathlete, she came in and set fastest leg time) and missed a World Championships medal at Val di Fiemme by half a second.
- a 70% shooting record isn't enough even for the best skiers to be consistently up there.
- if somebody like Heidi isn't a natural talent for shooting, 70% may be a tough ask anyway. XC-specialized biathletes like Lars Berger and Magdalena Neuner never made 70% average shooting in standing in their careers (Lars 62,9%, Lena 67,5%)
 
Apr 22, 2012
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.[/quote]
Look at them over the last couple of years and then consider it's not much of a surprise.

[/quote]

But why are they so shite? I mean, this long long article is not much of answer Libertine.
 

Singer01

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Libertine Seguros said:
Singer01 said:
biathletes like Lars Berger and Magdalena Neuner never made 70% average shooting in standing in their careers (Lars 62,9%, Lena 67,5%)
cheers for the response, snipped for clarity. I think I remember Lars being the last person to win a sprint with 2 missed shots.
I just think with the current strength in depth where good XC skiiers not being able to get a start, some of them should look to switch.
Ekhoff looked pretty fast yesterday, shame about her shooting.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Viktova won with 2 misses when the favourites had at least 1 and more misses (4 for Domracheva, Makarainen Semenrenko, Dorin-Habert, 3 for Soukolova,....). Should have been a windy day.
 
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Kokoso said:
But why are they so shite? I mean, this long long article is not much of answer Libertine.
I get the feeling that, actually, they've been punching well below their weight for quite some time now, but Berger's continual success has kind of covered that up and it's only now that she's gone that the fact that most of their athletes are stalling or even regressing in their development is really becoming obvious, especially when compared to the production line of talents that make up the men's team. It's not impossible to believe that they may actually have not been managing development to their full capabilities for a while on the women's side, given how people like Ringen and Fenne have progressed (or not) after initially showing tons of promise.
 
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Ok. I've been looking a lot for the Swedish medical company who allegedly ested EPO on the Swedish national team in 1989. Have any of you got an idea which one it was? My main purpose is to look into the matter of Gunde Swan and Torgny Mogren.
Perhaps I should give Christer Majbäck a call.
 
Re: Re:

Singer01 said:
Discgear said:
Norway
Norway
Norway
Fattie
Norway
Norway
Norway
Fattie
I've only just started posting round here, but is this sort of language acceptable? seems ridiculously offensive to me, I may be missing some context though.
It's something like a pun. It's a jab at the notion that the podium is all hard work when in fact, currently, it is most likely highly coordinated doping schemes.

In case this hasn't been posted already:
http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/117062632453/reader-submitted-its-a-level-playing-field
 
Jun 15, 2009
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You're full of sh!t. Time to scrap this thread. Hasn't got anything to do with cycling, only interesting for 10 mentally challenged guys in Norway and a complete waste of bandwidth.
 
Jul 28, 2011
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hektoren said:
You're full of sh!t. Time to scrap this thread. Hasn't got anything to do with cycling, only interesting for 10 mentally challenged guys in Norway and a complete waste of bandwidth.
Aside from the previous page and your comment, the replies in this thread are some of the more thoughtful ones compared to the normal discourse of The Clinic.
 
If athletes can avoid any real ban by just retiring and getting a real job, perhaps just an exclusion ban is not sufficient. Athletes will compete and dope until caught. Especially with longer bans as anticipated this will be the case.
Perhaps some fines need to be involved. For instance equal to a year's budget as extracted from the sport, governmental institutions, and commercial partners. Just the monetary gain would amount to nothing for most, it's not a rich life unless you win a lot.
 
May 19, 2010
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IBU was rather kind to re-analyze the samples in late 2014 instead of waiting for the 2015 CODE to come into effect. If the cases were opened in 2015 they could probably have asked for 4 years. It wouldn't have mattered for Sednev, but for Loginov it would.
 
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neineinei said:
IBU was rather kind to re-analyze the samples in late 2014 instead of waiting for the 2015 CODE to come into effect. If the cases were opened in 2015 they could probably have asked for 4 years. It wouldn't have mattered for Sednev, but for Loginov it would.
Interesting. Do you know when the Bjoerndalen positives will be made public?
 
Aug 5, 2014
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Walkman said:
zapata said:
That blue column might just as easily be called "Gunde Svan in the golden era of blood transfusions".
Sour grapes from a norwegian, what a shocker. :rolleyes:

Had you done some research, you would have know that in 1989, Gundes most successful World Championships (he won three gold) the blood test showed no signs of any doping. In fact, mean values at the 1989 World Nordic Ski Championships were lower than population reference values, as would be expected from plasma volume expansion associated with endurance training.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10755280

There is no evidence against the Swedes. But there are a lot of suspect results and HB values from Norweigan skiers during the 90's.

Swedish (male) Hb values during the 90's.

Season, In-season avg, Off-season avg, Peak value

93–94 156,7±7,7 153,6±4,6 172 (No limit)
94–95 150,5±9,3 149,5±7,2 166
95–96 152,9±9,2 149,5±9,2 168
96–97 152,2±7,4 149,5±1,2 164 (limit: 185)
97–98 146,4±3,5 149,2±3,1 161
98–99 150,2±4,0 147,7±2,5 159
99–00 149,3±7,0 154,5±8,1 168
00–01 150,8±6,4 150,7±4,7 161 (limit: 175)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12792206

This has been posted in the thread before:

This 30km freestyle race from 1994 Olympics in Lillehammer is a good example. We know Myllyla (3rd) took EPO. Most likely Isometsa (6th) and Rasanen (11th) as well. Botvinov of Austria (4th) and Smirnov (10th) of Kazakhstan were considered amongst the biggest dopers of the time. Muehlegg (9th) is a giveaway. You're implying (and I am agreeing) that Italians doped - that takes care of DeZolt (5th) and Fauner (7th). The only clean skiers in top 11, according to you, would have been Alsgaard (1st by a mile) and Dahlie (2nd by another mile).
Furthermore, consider this:

1995; some skiers had 20 g/100 ml with all medal winners above 17.5 g /100 ml. From 1997 upper allowed limit for men 18.5 g/100 ml.

1999 some 30 male skiers between 17.0- 18.7 g/100 ml; medal winners > 17.0 g/100ml.

Just check out the guys who did medal in those Championships:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIS_Nordic_World_Ski_Championships_1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIS_Nordic_World_Ski_Championships_1997
It is also the possibility that the swedes blood wasn't in the mean. It has happened before and after ;)
 
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