Doping in XC skiing

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Ingvild raced well, didn't need to fight for position early like Heidi did and let Weng pace most of the hardest parts of the course for the first half; once we got to around the 9,6km checkpoint you could see Heidi didn't want to share the lead anymore; clearly she was running out of steam by that point whereas Ingvild had kept a lot more in reserve as can be seen from how much time Heidi lost very quickly at the end with Østberg's gap from Johaug staying fairly constant in the second half of the race.
 
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Libertine Seguros said:
Ingvild raced well, didn't need to fight for position early like Heidi did and let Weng pace most of the hardest parts of the course for the first half; once we got to around the 9,6km checkpoint you could see Heidi didn't want to share the lead anymore; clearly she was running out of steam by that point whereas Ingvild had kept a lot more in reserve as can be seen from how much time Heidi lost very quickly at the end with Østberg's gap from Johaug staying fairly constant in the second half of the race.
But Ingvild did ski in the finals yesterday, hence she had a short recovery before this extremely tough race. As a sprinter specialist, she did far beyond expectation. Everyone else from yesterdays final and semifinal session did underperform today. Both her and TJ performances were beastly.
 
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Discgear said:
Libertine Seguros said:
Ingvild raced well, didn't need to fight for position early like Heidi did and let Weng pace most of the hardest parts of the course for the first half; once we got to around the 9,6km checkpoint you could see Heidi didn't want to share the lead anymore; clearly she was running out of steam by that point whereas Ingvild had kept a lot more in reserve as can be seen from how much time Heidi lost very quickly at the end with Østberg's gap from Johaug staying fairly constant in the second half of the race.
But Ingvild did ski in the finals yesterday, hence she had a short recovery before this extremely tough race. As a sprinter specialist, she did far beyond expectation. Everyone else from yesterdays final and semifinal session did underperform today. Both her and TJ performances were beastly.
No doubt, and the way Ingvild is turning herself from a sprinter into a distance racer is mighty impressive as well. But I was more replying to the part of the post on Weng losing out than anything else, which had more to do with Heidi expending a lot more energy than Østberg in the first half of the race, after all everything else is likely to be equal.
 
Not nice to watch at all. Translated into cycling watts neither Sundby nor Johaug would come away with it. Fortunately for them no one really bothers anymore and anti-doping work is becoming an excuse to continue the show. Must be terrible for clean skiers to know that it is either to jump the bandwagon and take the risk to get caught or simply settle for a possible top 2-10 at best.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Barkintheeye said:
Not nice to watch at all. Translated into cycling watts neither Sundby nor Johaug would come away with it. Fortunately for them no one really bothers anymore and anti-doping work is becoming an excuse to continue the show. Must be terrible for clean skiers to know that it is either to jump the bandwagon and take the risk to get caught or simply settle for a possible top 2-10 at best.
i have a hunch that if there is anyone among the elite skiers who knows the real difference btwn clean and doped - it is cologna. i am not saying anything about him personally b/c he is a suspect just like anyone in the sport with his cv and sudden performances after being out with an injury.

just trying to get into his head when he knows being in tip-top shape and watching sundby disappear in a snow dust. also, cologna on at least 2 occasions was quite negatively skeptical and outspoken about sundby (not directly related to doping)
 
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python said:
Barkintheeye said:
Not nice to watch at all. Translated into cycling watts neither Sundby nor Johaug would come away with it. Fortunately for them no one really bothers anymore and anti-doping work is becoming an excuse to continue the show. Must be terrible for clean skiers to know that it is either to jump the bandwagon and take the risk to get caught or simply settle for a possible top 2-10 at best.
i have a hunch that if there is anyone among the elite skiers who knows the real difference btwn clean and doped - it is cologna. i am not saying anything about him personally b/c he is a suspect just like anyone in the sport with his cv and sudden performances after being out with an injury.

just trying to get into his head when he knows being in tip-top shape and watching sundby disappear in a snow dust. also, cologna on at least 2 occasions was quite negatively skeptical and outspoken about sundby (not directly related to doping)

I'd love to read/hear about Cologna's skepticism/criticizing of Sundby. Do you by any chance have links? I know he is a pretty reserved guy (he is Swiss, after all) so it's a little strange that he would make some remarks on fellow competitors. I remember that a couple years ago he said something regarding Northug, and how he doesn't fall for what Northug says to the media before the race and something like "the press believes everything Northug tells them.." Cologna, as some on this forum might know already, was associated with Marc Biver, a Luxembourger who was his manager. Biver was Tour De Suisse director, then was Tony Rominger's mentor/manager, before taking the managerial role with Astana. He also worked with Swiss Triathlon as well. I don't know if he is still Cologna's manager and how much involved he was/is with Cologna, but that's an eyebrow raiser for sure. Biver or not, Cologna's magical Sochi run after injury/surgery in fall 2013 will always stick out to me as something fishy.
 
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Kokoso said:
I'd like to ask someone (anyone) with some insight on number of registered xc skiers in Norway and other countries, cause that is definitely something influencing performance of their athletes. I've heard that 4 out of 5 milion Norwegians are registered (that is huge relative number) and kids entering 4th class at primary school are mostly registered in not one, but two ski clubs. I wonder about about comparison with other nations. Thank you for your opinions!

To give you an idea. In my local county or region (one of 19 in Norway). There is about twenty times the amount of registered skiers in the age group between 13-19 than the in the same age group in the entire nation of Italy. On a typical wednesday in a small city like Tromsø more than 1000 kids meet up to compete every week. In most other countries the amount of registered xc skiers would be in the hundreds. So basically small Norwegian towns would crush entire nations when it comes to the amount of registered skiers.
 
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Norbea said:
So basically small Norwegian towns would crush entire nations when it comes to the amount of registered skiers.
The talent pool is huge and explains the depth of the Norwegian XC-team. However, it doesn't explain out of earth performances. Nor does it explain "clean" dominance in the clearly brutally epo-doped 90s. Finally, both MJ "marginal gains" Sundby and Bjoergen were quite mediocre juniors and not the naturally best talents. TJ was very good already as a junior.

BullsFan22 said:
I'd love to read/hear about Cologna's skepticism/criticizing of Sundby. Do you by any chance have links?
Believe it or not. His not very popular even among Norwegian ski fans.
 
Former top-skier Mattias Fredriksson (please no debate whether or not he was or wasn't a top xc skier) made an odd remark of comparing Sundby''s latest race (not todays) with Johan Muehllegg's in 2002. The Norwegians didn't take too fondly of that as Armstrong /Muehllegg /etc comparisons only imply one thing. Nobody said the D-word and Fredriksson was quick to try to undo the damage by underscoring all those points we have heard before i. a. Armstrongian marginal gains, better technique, more training etc. At today's tv interviews neither Sundby nor Northug could "make time" for an interview with Swedish TV, clearly not happy with the excuses from Fredriksson. Xc skiing is a very small world and stepping on wrong and powerful toes may hurt you economically and socially. On a personal note I am inclined to doubt that no xc officials, skiers, sponsors, media and others are really that interested in finding out more about performances and potential cheating. Anti doping can only work when the institutions enforcing the anti doping work are strong vs its counterparts - something they clearly are not.
 
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Discgear said:
Norbea said:
So basically small Norwegian towns would crush entire nations when it comes to the amount of registered skiers.
The talent pool is huge and explains the depth of the Norwegian XC-team. However, it doesn't explain out of earth performances. Nor does it explain "clean" dominance in the clearly brutally epo-doped 90s. Finally, both MJ "marginal gains" Sundby and Bjoergen were quite mediocre juniors and not the naturally best talents. TJ was very good already as a junior.

BullsFan22 said:
I'd love to read/hear about Cologna's skepticism/criticizing of Sundby. Do you by any chance have links?
Believe it or not. His not very popular even among Norwegian ski fans.

I can´t prove that they are clean and you can´t prove that they are not, so I am not going into that discussion. Bjørgen was 3rd in the nationals at 21, so she was good at a young age. TJ was poor and generally at the bottom of the result lists as a child, but her mentality was always strong, as is the case of all winners. But yes she started to dominate her classes already at 18-19.

Sundby isn´very popular, but it is mostly because he is completely boring. Not much of a personality, he is all about extreme workouts and ridiculous amounts of training and not much more. Bjørndalen is also boring in that sense, but at least he has a bit of an eccentric personality.
 
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Barkintheeye said:
Former top-skier Mattias Fredriksson (please no debate whether or not he was or wasn't a top xc skier) made an odd remark of comparing Sundby''s latest race (not todays) with Johan Muehllegg's in 2002. The Norwegians didn't take too fondly of that as Armstrong /Muehllegg /etc comparisons only imply one thing. Nobody said the D-word and Fredriksson was quick to try to undo the damage by underscoring all those points we have heard before i. a. Armstrongian marginal gains, better technique, more training etc. At today's tv interviews neither Sundby nor Northug could "make time" for an interview with Swedish TV, clearly not happy with the excuses from Fredriksson. Xc skiing is a very small world and stepping on wrong and powerful toes may hurt you economically and socially. On a personal note I am inclined to doubt that no xc officials, skiers, sponsors, media and others are really that interested in finding out more about performances and potential cheating. Anti doping can only work when the institutions enforcing the anti doping work are strong vs its counterparts - something they clearly are not.

I agree that there should be more discussions instead of shutting discussions down. But I do think that Anti doping institutions generally have been strong in xc-skiing. They managed to root out plenty of the dopers in the 90s and 2000s. (Muhlegg got caught didn´t he?). And there are plenty of good reasons to explain Norwegian dominance. If anything one might actually expect the dominance to be even greater the cleaner the sport is. When it comes to finance, support, talent pool and all other areas considered, Norway is way ahead. Actually it is a discussion in Norway now why we don´t totally dominate women´s biathlon. Considering the amount of resources we put in to it and the amount of talents.

I find it natural. In xc and mens biathlon we have built steadily on great generations that train and compete and learn from each other. Johaug is good because she trained and worked with Bjørgen, Bjørgen learned from Skari etc. Northug learned a lot from Frode Estil. In women's biathlon the group hasn´t been that stable. If you take a great skier such as Cologna or Kalla they can get good on their own, but they can never benefit from being pushed by equally good team mates, such as many of the the Norwegians.
 
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Barkintheeye said:
Former top-skier Mattias Fredriksson (please no debate whether or not he was or wasn't a top xc skier) made an odd remark of comparing Sundby''s latest race (not todays) with Johan Muehllegg's in 2002. The Norwegians didn't take too fondly of that as Armstrong /Muehllegg /etc comparisons only imply one thing. Nobody said the D-word and Fredriksson was quick to try to undo the damage by underscoring all those points we have heard before i. a. Armstrongian marginal gains, better technique, more training etc. At today's tv interviews neither Sundby nor Northug could "make time" for an interview with Swedish TV, clearly not happy with the excuses from Fredriksson. Xc skiing is a very small world and stepping on wrong and powerful toes may hurt you economically and socially. On a personal note I am inclined to doubt that no xc officials, skiers, sponsors, media and others are really that interested in finding out more about performances and potential cheating. Anti doping can only work when the institutions enforcing the anti doping work are strong vs its counterparts - something they clearly are not.

Already been discussed in this thread. A few weeks back.
 
Oestberg being of a lesser slight build than Johaug, may well have put in a higher W/kg performance here. Not bad for an absolute top sprinter. More suspect than Johaug, as she was out-skiing all the non-sprinters by a good margin.
Johaug being so slight does offer her some ski-tech rules advantages in my opinion. Low drag having full sized skis, easy to get grip in classic as her high tempo requires little transfer of energy through the grip zone.

Kowalczyk more and more looks to have gone pan e aqua. If so, it's worth 3 minutes over 15km. If this is a factor, I suspect she's really only gone partly clean. How much would full Bassons clean vs. full Armstrong *** be worth in a race like this? Certainly more than the gaps at the front.
 
On a positive, if the last couple years are any indication, Sundby will get sick and/or his form will drop. That is almost always the case in this sport, doping or not. You can have one major peak and keep it for a little bit before you have to come down to earth. You can have a couple smaller peaks at different stages of the season, but keeping excellent, dominating form from November to end of March is impossible. We don't see major differences in the women's division because the gap between the top few women (or in today's world, one woman) and everyone else is pretty significant, while the men's it is not as wide, even though Sundby is making it look that way. When Johaug's form drops, she will still win distance races easily, when Sundby's form drops, he won't be winning. Doping or not. That might say something of other top skiers doping or not doping, but that's inevitable.

One thing regarding Sundby's training is apparently 1000+ hours per year. For anyone that's even remotely familiar with training in XC skiing knows that's ludicrous. Even former Norwegian national team members don't believe those numbers. You will have major health issues if you try something like that for a year or two. Not only that, but he's got a family to look out for too, so that's virtually impossible to maintain.
 
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Cloxxki said:
Oestberg being of a lesser slight build than Johaug, may well have put in a higher W/kg performance here. Not bad for an absolute top sprinter. More suspect than Johaug, as she was out-skiing all the non-sprinters by a good margin.
Johaug being so slight does offer her some ski-tech rules advantages in my opinion. Low drag having full sized skis, easy to get grip in classic as her high tempo requires little transfer of energy through the grip zone.

Kowalczyk more and more looks to have gone pan e aqua. If so, it's worth 3 minutes over 15km. If this is a factor, I suspect she's really only gone partly clean. How much would full Bassons clean vs. full Armstrong *** be worth in a race like this? Certainly more than the gaps at the front.

Not sure how talented Bassons was vs Armstrong's talents, but you can't compare the two sports, race gaps wise. If you tried to do what Johaug did today, for example, in a bike race, you would blow to smithereens before you reached the finish. I doubt Kowalczyk would just now, all of a sudden, be racing clean. I think she lost motivation and she's been battling some form of depression in the last coupe of seasons. She said so publicly. Her form has steadily dropped since Sochi. I think her height was reached in that 10km classic, just like Cologna in the 15km classic the very next day. Neither of them has won a race since then, if memory serves me right. Maybe I am wrong, maybe they are cleaner, but they've won everything there is to win, and they've single handedly put their respective countries on the map and made themselves extremely popular. That may be completely off on my part, but it's certainly possible.

Look at Legkov and Chernousov. Say what you will about the Russians, but their lives have completely changed since Sochi. Legkov, from a skiing standpoint, had a injury and illness filled pre-season and ski season last year, and this year he changed coaches after like 5 or 6 seasons of working with Knauthe and Burgermeister. He's slowly bringing his form up, but I am not sure when and if he finds his old form back. He won the most important race of his life, the Sochi 50, and then ended 2014 on a high, finishing 3 overall. I think having an Olympic gold probably relaxed him too much and he too lost some motivation. Chernousov changed coaches, now coached by Vegard Bitnes (a Norwegian), got married, has been training by himself and/or traveling around Europe training in different, ever changing groups. That's not easy to do. I think this year being a non-championship year might also play a big role.

The biggest shock for me is how horrendous the Swedish men have been this year. Sure, Halfvarsson has been sick, Richardsson focusing on marathons, so too Olsson, but Hellner is mysteriously on a funk, so too Peterson. Nelson, one of the heroes of 2014, has completely disappeared. Joensson is still fairly competitive in sprints, but he is slowly making way for younger sprinters. Where is everyone else? The guys at the tour de ski are waaaay back or getting sick one after the other. Northug jokingly said that perhaps the Swedes should bring back Per Elofsson back to racing. I thought that was pretty funny. Another little poke by Northug on the Swedes. Seriously though, maybe they should bring back Elofsson, Fredriksson...even Svan and Wassberg!
 
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Cloxxki said:
Oestberg being of a lesser slight build than Johaug, may well have put in a higher W/kg performance here. Not bad for an absolute top sprinter. More suspect than Johaug, as she was out-skiing all the non-sprinters by a good margin.
Johaug being so slight does offer her some ski-tech rules advantages in my opinion. Low drag having full sized skis, easy to get grip in classic as her high tempo requires little transfer of energy through the grip zone.

Kowalczyk more and more looks to have gone pan e aqua. If so, it's worth 3 minutes over 15km. If this is a factor, I suspect she's really only gone partly clean. How much would full Bassons clean vs. full Armstrong *** be worth in a race like this? Certainly more than the gaps at the front.

Østberg has always aspired to be an allrounder and she has been working hard to become one the past couple of years. She doesn´t like it when people describe her as a sprinter. But she has mainly had results in sprints. I for one have been waiting for her to break through as an allrounder. She has the build and the stamina to become a new Bjørgen. On the other hand I don´t believe Falla has what it takes to become anything more than a sprinter.

Kowalczyk is only wasting her time in the WC atm. Maybe just to please her polish fans. She is clearly not motivated any more for anything else than the long distance races such as Vasaloppet.
 
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BullsFan22 said:
The biggest shock for me is how horrendous the Swedish men have been this year. Sure, Halfvarsson has been sick, Richardsson focusing on marathons, so too Olsson, but Hellner is mysteriously on a funk, so too Peterson. Nelson, one of the heroes of 2014, has completely disappeared.
Nelson has quit - a late bloomer who now turns into an engineering career. Olsson and Rickardsson are preparing their retirement by going into the marathon circuit. Both Halfvarsson and Hellner are "boring" trainomaniacs or in other words; MJ "Marginal gains" Sundby lookalikes. They both tried to step up in training intensity this season in a desparate attempt to stay competitive withe the Norseman. Both with consistent health problems as an unwelcome consequence.....
 
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Norbea said:
Cloxxki said:
Oestberg being of a lesser slight build than Johaug, may well have put in a higher W/kg performance here. Not bad for an absolute top sprinter. More suspect than Johaug, as she was out-skiing all the non-sprinters by a good margin.
Johaug being so slight does offer her some ski-tech rules advantages in my opinion. Low drag having full sized skis, easy to get grip in classic as her high tempo requires little transfer of energy through the grip zone.

Kowalczyk more and more looks to have gone pan e aqua. If so, it's worth 3 minutes over 15km. If this is a factor, I suspect she's really only gone partly clean. How much would full Bassons clean vs. full Armstrong *** be worth in a race like this? Certainly more than the gaps at the front.

Østberg has always aspired to be an allrounder and she has been working hard to become one the past couple of years. She doesn´t like it when people describe her as a sprinter. But she has mainly had results in sprints. I for one have been waiting for her to break through as an allrounder. She has the build and the stamina to become a new Bjørgen. On the other hand I don´t believe Falla has what it takes to become anything more than a sprinter.

Kowalczyk is only wasting her time in the WC atm. Maybe just to please her polish fans. She is clearly not motivated any more for anything else than the long distance races such as Vasaloppet.

Agreed about Oestberg. She was the best junior skier in the world, won 4 individual golds and a bunch of other jr and u23 medals, in distance, let's not forget. Her being competitive in distance races in WC's is not a surprise. In fact, you'd expect it. I have no idea what sort of specific training she is on, but I am assuming she's changed some things over the past couple years. Probably more distance training, while still fine tuning her sprinting. Usually when you improve your endurance, you also do your sprinting good. Some might lose a little bit of their top end speed, but not always, and it's minimal. Kriukov and the Russian sprinters did this before Sochi. They focused on the difficult Sochi sprint tracks and it paid off for him, earning a medal in the brutal team sprint.

Back to Oestberg, she is also a fairly keen football player, playing semi-professionally at Gjoevik. Not sure how much she plays, but sometimes doing different muscle drills on the side doesn't hurt.
 
How is having a Bjoergen build a good omen to become a succesful allrounder? Most of the time in XC is spent uphill. Can any sportfysician make a case for such musculature in endurance XC? Wasn't it all about aerobic power to weight? When Johaug wins it is.
 
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Discgear said:
BullsFan22 said:
They both tried to step up in training intensity this season in a desparate attempt to stay competitive withe the Norseman. Both with consistent health problems as an unwelcome consequence.....

That is the main problem for any of the dozens of Norwegian skiers that doesn´t make the team as well. Take for instance Marthe Kristoffersen. At junior level she was even more talented than Johaug. They both made the team at about the same time and had some of the same results in the beginning. But as the training got tougher Kristoffersen couldn´t handle the brutal regime. I fear they might push Weng in to the same pit if she doesn´t find the right balance.
 
Jan 3, 2016
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BullsFan22 said:
Look at Legkov and Chernousov. Say what you will about the Russians, but their lives have completely changed since Sochi. Legkov, from a skiing standpoint, had a injury and illness filled pre-season and ski season last year, and this year he changed coaches after like 5 or 6 seasons of working with Knauthe and Burgermeister. He's slowly bringing his form up, but I am not sure when and if he finds his old form back. He won the most important race of his life, the Sochi 50, and then ended 2014 on a high, finishing 3 overall. I think having an Olympic gold probably relaxed him too much and he too lost some motivation.
Legkov is capitalizing his Olympic gold. Opened a ski shop, is managing a ski resort near Moscow, a lot of events (every week on media), a lot of advertising.
He also got married and got a child.
 

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