Doping in XC skiing

[Norbea]

Re:

How is having a Bjoergen build a good omen to become a succesful allrounder? Most of the time in XC is spent uphill. Can any sportfysician make a case for such musculature in endurance XC? Wasn't it all about aerobic power to weight? When Johaug wins it is.

Actually the sport is moving in the direction of more muscle power. Uphill capabilities was more important earlier. At least in classical style. In 2015 even the Birkebeiner race was won by someone without using wax. Something that was considered impossible only a year ago. Many of the best marathon skiers of today are former sprinters. But that has a lot do to with the races being to flat. If the races had more uphill climbs it would benefit the lighter skiers.

In XC skiing it is a combination of so many factors that makes a good skier. A strong and heavy skier can gain advantages uphill by having a good technique that makes an effective use of his/her muscle power to uphold good glide in steep hills. Of course there is an advantage to be light in endurance in general and uphill, but it is not the same as cycling or running. A light person might still be a pretty good sprinter and a strong and heavy built person might do well in the long distances when it comes to xc-skiing, because it has a lot to do with technique. When I see Ørtberg as someone who could become a good allrounder it is because she has a very effective technique and she seems to have good stamina. Ad her sprinting capabilities and you have someone who will surely win a lot of races in the way the WC is arranged today.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Look at Legkov and Chernousov. Say what you will about the Russians, but their lives have completely changed since Sochi. Legkov, from a skiing standpoint, had a injury and illness filled pre-season and ski season last year, and this year he changed coaches after like 5 or 6 seasons of working with Knauthe and Burgermeister. He's slowly bringing his form up, but I am not sure when and if he finds his old form back. He won the most important race of his life, the Sochi 50, and then ended 2014 on a high, finishing 3 overall. I think having an Olympic gold probably relaxed him too much and he too lost some motivation.

Legkov is capitalizing his Olympic gold. Opened a ski shop, is managing a ski resort near Moscow, a lot of events (every week on media), a lot of advertising.
He also got married and got a child.

I am aware about his exploits outside of racing, yes. I could tell from his interviews that he is quite content, almost relieved after the Sochi success. I actually thought after winning in Sochi he would gain more momentum and would build upon his success working with Knauthe and Burgermeister, but it hasn't turned out that way. Petukhov and Kriukov might be the same way. They too, are married, and Petukhov has a little kid. I think if he doesn't find success in Lahti next season, he might retire. Hattestad is in the same boat. It's the changing of the guard in men's skiing. My hope is that everyone that sticks around from the old guard get old forms back and we see more competitive races.

 

[Blaaswix]

NRK reporting that Jacobsen is pulling out of the tour after yesterday's problems after the finish line.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

NRK reporting that Jacobsen is pulling out of the tour after yesterday's problems after the finish line.

Yeah, that didn't look good at all. Perhaps not enough fluids/food before and during the race? It didn't look as though she went too hard from the beginning.

 

[Norbea]

Re: Re:

NRK reporting that Jacobsen is pulling out of the tour after yesterday's problems after the finish line.

Yeah, that didn't look good at all. Perhaps not enough fluids/food before and during the race? It didn't look as though she went too hard from the beginning.

She just finished exams for her medical degree as well. Might have overdone it with competing at this level and doing lots of studying all at once. Not enough rest and restitution.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

NRK reporting that Jacobsen is pulling out of the tour after yesterday's problems after the finish line.

Yeah, that didn't look good at all. Perhaps not enough fluids/food before and during the race? It didn't look as though she went too hard from the beginning.

She just finished exams for her medical degree as well. Might have overdone it with competing at this level and doing lots of studying all at once. Not enough rest and restitution.

I am really impressed by her ability to go to med school and race at the top level. She's been doing this for years now. That very well could be the reason for her collapse at the finish yesterday. Hopefully it's nothing serious.

 

[Blaaswix]

Didn't watch the end of the men's bore-a-thon, not that there was anything to see. Sounds like Northug followed his usual tactics of doing no work and then taking the glory at the end. Must be a great atmosphere on the team bus. Or does he still have a separate bus?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Didn't watch the end of the men's bore-a-thon, not that there was anything to see. Sounds like Northug followed his usual tactics of doing no work and then taking the glory at the end. Must be a great atmosphere on the team bus. Or does he still have a separate bus?

I know Northug is funny and playful, but I wonder what his 'teammates' think of him just sitting behind, not doing any work and then sprints the last couple minutes of each race. I know Sundby was annoyed with him a couple years ago at the Norwegian nationals for doing exactly what he normally does. I wonder if others are as annoyed or they don't care, or they are in awe of him?

 

[Blaaswix]

Re: Re:

Didn't watch the end of the men's bore-a-thon, not that there was anything to see. Sounds like Northug followed his usual tactics of doing no work and then taking the glory at the end. Must be a great atmosphere on the team bus. Or does he still have a separate bus?

I know Northug is funny and playful, but I wonder what his 'teammates' think of him just sitting behind, not doing any work and then sprints the last couple minutes of each race. I know Sundby was annoyed with him a couple years ago at the Norwegian nationals for doing exactly what he normally does. I wonder if others are as annoyed or they don't care, or they are in awe of him?

I don't think there's any love lost on or off the løype. I think the only circumstances in which you'd see the rest of the team willingly working for Northug would be if there was a serious threat from another country. And even then, I think they'd have to be desperate.

I don't find him funny and playful, I find his tactics immature (although successful) and his behaviour unsporting on too many occasions - He's a poor winner, and a worse loser IMHO.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I find Northug to be very much like I find Peter Sagan, only without the defensible racing.

 

[Norbea]

Re: Re:

Didn't watch the end of the men's bore-a-thon, not that there was anything to see. Sounds like Northug followed his usual tactics of doing no work and then taking the glory at the end. Must be a great atmosphere on the team bus. Or does he still have a separate bus?

I know Northug is funny and playful, but I wonder what his 'teammates' think of him just sitting behind, not doing any work and then sprints the last couple minutes of each race. I know Sundby was annoyed with him a couple years ago at the Norwegian nationals for doing exactly what he normally does. I wonder if others are as annoyed or they don't care, or they are in awe of him?

Tønseth was not very happy when he was interviewed after the race. He had some sarcastic remarks about Northug´s teamwork.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

I find Northug to be very much like I find Peter Sagan, only without the defensible racing.

That's a fair comparison. However, just wait until Sagan starts poking fun at the Czechs, as Northug does the Swedes.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

I'd like to ask someone (anyone) with some insight on number of registered xc skiers in Norway and other countries, cause that is definitely something influencing performance of their athletes. I've heard that 4 out of 5 milion Norwegians are registered (that is huge relative number) and kids entering 4th class at primary school are mostly registered in not one, but two ski clubs. I wonder about about comparison with other nations. Thank you for your opinions!

To give you an idea. In my local county or region (one of 19 in Norway). There is about twenty times the amount of registered skiers in the age group between 13-19 than the in the same age group in the entire nation of Italy. On a typical wednesday in a small city like Tromsø more than 1000 kids meet up to compete every week. In most other countries the amount of registered xc skiers would be in the hundreds. So basically small Norwegian towns would crush entire nations when it comes to the amount of registered skiers.

Thnak you for your answer. Anyway, as arises from you answer, there are actually some countries where there are lot of skiers too (you say most of the countries). So is that explanation? I think that number of registered skiers can be misleading, too. In my country there are lot of xc skiers, they just don't happen to be registered.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

Former top-skier Mattias Fredriksson (please no debate whether or not he was or wasn't a top xc skier) made an odd remark of comparing Sundby''s latest race (not todays) with Johan Muehllegg's in 2002. The Norwegians didn't take too fondly of that as Armstrong /Muehllegg /etc comparisons only imply one thing. Nobody said the D-word and Fredriksson was quick to try to undo the damage by underscoring all those points we have heard before i. a. Armstrongian marginal gains, better technique, more training etc. At today's tv interviews neither Sundby nor Northug could "make time" for an interview with Swedish TV, clearly not happy with the excuses from Fredriksson. Xc skiing is a very small world and stepping on wrong and powerful toes may hurt you economically and socially. On a personal note I am inclined to doubt that no xc officials, skiers, sponsors, media and others are really that interested in finding out more about performances and potential cheating. Anti doping can only work when the institutions enforcing the anti doping work are strong vs its counterparts - something they clearly are not.

I agree that there should be more discussions instead of shutting discussions down. But I do think that Anti doping institutions generally have been strong in xc-skiing. They managed to root out plenty of the dopers in the 90s and 2000s. (Muhlegg got caught didn´t he?). And there are plenty of good reasons to explain Norwegian dominance. If anything one might actually expect the dominance to be even greater the cleaner the sport is. When it comes to finance, support, talent pool and all other areas considered, Norway is way ahead. Actually it is a discussion in Norway now why we don´t totally dominate women´s biathlon. Considering the amount of resources we put in to it and the amount of talents.

I find it natural. In xc and mens biathlon we have built steadily on great generations that train and compete and learn from each other. Johaug is good because she trained and worked with Bjørgen, Bjørgen learned from Skari etc. Northug learned a lot from Frode Estil. In women's biathlon the group hasn´t been that stable. If you take a great skier such as Cologna or Kalla they can get good on their own, but they can never benefit from being pushed by equally good team mates, such as many of the the Norwegians.

I've heard this more times and I wonder where Norwwgians gain that certainity about their margin with money, support, talent pool "and all other areas considered". All of them. That isn't good for others, because, as I can see, it's wonder that there isn't dominance in women biathlon too. And there was Johann Oalv Koss, Bjarte Engen Vik, Fred Borre Lundberg, long row of ski jumping champions, Lasse Kjus, Kjetil Andre Aamodt...

 

[Norbea]

Re: Re:

Thnak you for your answer. Anyway, as arises from you answer, there are actually some countries where there are lot of skiers too (you say most of the countries). So is that explanation? I think that number of registered skiers can be misleading, too. In my country there are lot of xc skiers, they just don't happen to be registered.

I don´t have official numbers. My only source is what someone who works in the skiing federation has told me. Yes some countries have a lot of skiers. The Swedes are the ones closest to Norway and they are not even close when it comes to registered skiers. And I know there are a lot of unregistered skiers. I´ve heard that xc skiing has become very popular activity in Switzerland. But the same goes for Norway. Just look at races such as Marcialonga in Italy or Vasaloppet in Sweden - most of the participants are Norwegian amateur skiers and they come in the thousands and outnumber the racers from the host nation.

 

[Norbea]

Re: Re:

I
I've heard this more times and I wonder where Norwwgians gain that certainity about their margin with money, support, talent pool "and all other areas considered". All of them. That isn't good for others, because, as I can see, it's wonder that there isn't dominance in women biathlon too. And there was Johann Oalv Koss, Bjarte Engen Vik, Fred Borre Lundberg, long row of ski jumping champions, Lasse Kjus, Kjetil Andre Aamodt...

I agree that some of these didn´t have the same advantage in resources, but when it comes to Nordic Combined there at least is some spill over effects from the massive xc pool. All of these sports are very popular in Norway and has a long tradition. Maybe with the exception of alpine skiing. When it comes to speed skating the dutch have the same position as Norway has in XC skiing. They have dominated the sport for the most of the time and you might be surprised by Sundbys performance, but it is not as big as Sven Kramer´s dominance in speed skating in his prime. Norway has only had periods of good speed skaters, but those periods goes all the way back to the 1920s. I don´t really see the great benefit from doping in ski jumping other than maybe keeping low weight and enhancing your concentration. It is such a highly technical skill. As is alpine skiing although there are some benefits in growing the right muscles.

 

[Trond Vidar]

Re: Re:

I'd like to ask someone (anyone) with some insight on number of registered xc skiers in Norway and other countries, cause that is definitely something influencing performance of their athletes. I've heard that 4 out of 5 milion Norwegians are registered (that is huge relative number) and kids entering 4th class at primary school are mostly registered in not one, but two ski clubs. I wonder about about comparison with other nations. Thank you for your opinions!

To give you an idea. In my local county or region (one of 19 in Norway). There is about twenty times the amount of registered skiers in the age group between 13-19 than the in the same age group in the entire nation of Italy. On a typical wednesday in a small city like Tromsø more than 1000 kids meet up to compete every week. In most other countries the amount of registered xc skiers would be in the hundreds. So basically small Norwegian towns would crush entire nations when it comes to the amount of registered skiers.

I can only attest to this. Skiing is the national sport. It means that when we get into the junior years, those with a unique and raw physical/mental talent actually chooses XC-skiing moving forward. In almost every other country that talent pool would chose something else entirely, because of the low status of xc-skiing. Even Northug said so way back, that if Norway had a different national sport he would have gone that route instead.

In sweden, skiing is now losing their talent to bandy.

 

[kosmonaut]

Re: Re:

I'd like to ask someone (anyone) with some insight on number of registered xc skiers in Norway and other countries, cause that is definitely something influencing performance of their athletes. I've heard that 4 out of 5 milion Norwegians are registered (that is huge relative number) and kids entering 4th class at primary school are mostly registered in not one, but two ski clubs. I wonder about about comparison with other nations. Thank you for your opinions!

To give you an idea. In my local county or region (one of 19 in Norway). There is about twenty times the amount of registered skiers in the age group between 13-19 than the in the same age group in the entire nation of Italy. On a typical wednesday in a small city like Tromsø more than 1000 kids meet up to compete every week. In most other countries the amount of registered xc skiers would be in the hundreds. So basically small Norwegian towns would crush entire nations when it comes to the amount of registered skiers.

I can only attest to this. Skiing is the national sport. It means that when we get into the junior years, those with a unique and raw physical/mental talent actually chooses XC-skiing moving forward. In almost every other country that talent pool would chose something else entirely, because of the low status of xc-skiing. Even Northug said so way back, that if Norway had a different national sport he would have gone that route instead.

In sweden, skiing is now losing their talent to bandy.

Does it explain why Sundby – who was mediocre at World Cup level for five years – is suddenly crushing his countrymen and everyone else?

Rough diamond? Marginal gains?

We've been through this. It explains depth, but not freak performances.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

I'd like to ask someone (anyone) with some insight on number of registered xc skiers in Norway and other countries, cause that is definitely something influencing performance of their athletes. I've heard that 4 out of 5 milion Norwegians are registered (that is huge relative number) and kids entering 4th class at primary school are mostly registered in not one, but two ski clubs. I wonder about about comparison with other nations. Thank you for your opinions!

To give you an idea. In my local county or region (one of 19 in Norway). There is about twenty times the amount of registered skiers in the age group between 13-19 than the in the same age group in the entire nation of Italy. On a typical wednesday in a small city like Tromsø more than 1000 kids meet up to compete every week. In most other countries the amount of registered xc skiers would be in the hundreds. So basically small Norwegian towns would crush entire nations when it comes to the amount of registered skiers.

I can only attest to this. Skiing is the national sport. It means that when we get into the junior years, those with a unique and raw physical/mental talent actually chooses XC-skiing moving forward. In almost every other country that talent pool would chose something else entirely, because of the low status of xc-skiing. Even Northug said so way back, that if Norway had a different national sport he would have gone that route instead.

In sweden, skiing is now losing their talent to bandy.

Does it explain why Sundby – who was mediocre at World Cup level for five years – is suddenly crushing his countrymen and everyone else?

Rough diamond? Marginal gains?

We've been through this. It explains depth, but not freak performances.

c'mon kosmo

as late as yesterday, sundby himself explained his phenomena. his literal words (my translation):'it's not abracadabra...'
http://www.tv2.no/2016/01/03/sport/langrenn/tour-de-ski/7867141

the rest of the article, in summary, reports an opinion of odd-bjørn hjelmeset (isn't it indeed odd - pun intendedd) that a foreigner with sundby's performance would be suspected of doping by many norwegians. and mjs himself admitted he'd be just as suspicious if someone was as superb. but no worries, he said, it's a lot of hard, well-planned training...

if i was allowed to speculate on anything other than his obvious to me improvement in the technique, particularly a v2, i'd look into something that rolls back an athlete's age.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

I'd like to ask someone (anyone) with some insight on number of registered xc skiers in Norway and other countries, cause that is definitely something influencing performance of their athletes. I've heard that 4 out of 5 milion Norwegians are registered (that is huge relative number) and kids entering 4th class at primary school are mostly registered in not one, but two ski clubs. I wonder about about comparison with other nations. Thank you for your opinions!

To give you an idea. In my local county or region (one of 19 in Norway). There is about twenty times the amount of registered skiers in the age group between 13-19 than the in the same age group in the entire nation of Italy. On a typical wednesday in a small city like Tromsø more than 1000 kids meet up to compete every week. In most other countries the amount of registered xc skiers would be in the hundreds. So basically small Norwegian towns would crush entire nations when it comes to the amount of registered skiers.

I can only attest to this. Skiing is the national sport. It means that when we get into the junior years, those with a unique and raw physical/mental talent actually chooses XC-skiing moving forward. In almost every other country that talent pool would chose something else entirely, because of the low status of xc-skiing. Even Northug said so way back, that if Norway had a different national sport he would have gone that route instead.

In sweden, skiing is now losing their talent to bandy.

So all those great handball, soccer, hockey players, biathletes, nordic combined, ski jumpers, alpine skiers...are just a junk, what's left after greatest talent enters xc skiing.

 

[May0maniac]

Gottlieb Taschler is still the president of the organizing committee of the Antholz Biathlon world cup, he even was the most important person at the press conference and was asking the journalists to keep the talk about him and Ferrari away from the event (a month or two ago he claimed that he only contacted Il Mito because of his Son's thyroid dysfunction ).
How can the guy still be the face of the organizing committee? Not a single athlete has said a word about the whole affair, it's classic Omerta at it's best.
Sadly it's not a huge surprise even our local amateur scene is filled with a few shady middle of the pack guys that suddenly became world beaters. I've even heard rumours about a guy who used to work with a pretty successful finish Biathlete helping them with their "preparation", but those are just rumours, so I won't say any names.

 

[Discgear]

Re: Re:

I'd like to ask someone (anyone) with some insight on number of registered xc skiers in Norway and other countries, cause that is definitely something influencing performance of their athletes. I've heard that 4 out of 5 milion Norwegians are registered (that is huge relative number) and kids entering 4th class at primary school are mostly registered in not one, but two ski clubs. I wonder about about comparison with other nations. Thank you for your opinions!

To give you an idea. In my local county or region (one of 19 in Norway). There is about twenty times the amount of registered skiers in the age group between 13-19 than the in the same age group in the entire nation of Italy. On a typical wednesday in a small city like Tromsø more than 1000 kids meet up to compete every week. In most other countries the amount of registered xc skiers would be in the hundreds. So basically small Norwegian towns would crush entire nations when it comes to the amount of registered skiers.

I can only attest to this. Skiing is the national sport. It means that when we get into the junior years, those with a unique and raw physical/mental talent actually chooses XC-skiing moving forward. In almost every other country that talent pool would chose something else entirely, because of the low status of xc-skiing. Even Northug said so way back, that if Norway had a different national sport he would have gone that route instead.

In sweden, skiing is now losing their talent to bandy.

So all those great handball, soccer, hockey players, biathletes, nordic combined, ski jumpers, alpine skiers...are just a junk, what's left after greatest talent enters xc skiing.

Yes, Norwegian Xc-skiers: cream of the crop, best of the best, crème de la crème - the bumble bees of aerobic sports.
In the past - especially in the 90s - definitely today and most certainly in the future.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

I'd like to ask someone (anyone) with some insight on number of registered xc skiers in Norway and other countries, cause that is definitely something influencing performance of their athletes. I've heard that 4 out of 5 milion Norwegians are registered (that is huge relative number) and kids entering 4th class at primary school are mostly registered in not one, but two ski clubs. I wonder about about comparison with other nations. Thank you for your opinions!

To give you an idea. In my local county or region (one of 19 in Norway). There is about twenty times the amount of registered skiers in the age group between 13-19 than the in the same age group in the entire nation of Italy. On a typical wednesday in a small city like Tromsø more than 1000 kids meet up to compete every week. In most other countries the amount of registered xc skiers would be in the hundreds. So basically small Norwegian towns would crush entire nations when it comes to the amount of registered skiers.

I can only attest to this. Skiing is the national sport. It means that when we get into the junior years, those with a unique and raw physical/mental talent actually chooses XC-skiing moving forward. In almost every other country that talent pool would chose something else entirely, because of the low status of xc-skiing. Even Northug said so way back, that if Norway had a different national sport he would have gone that route instead.

In sweden, skiing is now losing their talent to bandy.

So all those great handball, soccer, hockey players, biathletes, nordic combined, ski jumpers, alpine skiers...are just a junk, what's left after greatest talent enters xc skiing.

Yes, Norwegian Xc-skiers: cream of the crop, best of the best, crème de la crème - the bumble bees of aerobic sports.
In the past - especially in the 90s - definitely today and most certainly in the future.

Exactly, like Petter Northug, epitome of humanity.

 

[BullsFan22]

Is anyone else annoyed by Johaug's constant screaming every time she crosses the finish line? I know she's happy to make it past the quarters and semis of these sprint races, but....roid rage? Also, she skated, blatantly, it has to be said, several consecutive times, especially in the finals, and she wasn't DQ'd. The TD, Arne Sandvol (Norwegian) and Pierre Mignerey, who took over for Juerg Capol a few years ago, only had a 'talk with her,' but nothing was done. Same thing with Sundby. You can even say that Iversen, who won the race, put in some skate pushes in the final bit of the race. Again, nothing done.

Here is the link to Johaug's skating at the start of the women's final.

http://www.nrk.no/sport/johaug-kalt-inn-til-juryen_-kunne-fatt-tre-minutter-tidsstraff-1.12734613

 

[jsem94]

Should have been penalized. But that's not a topic for the Clinic. And this screaming? Hardly a result of PEDs. More a result of wearing her heart on her sleeve. It was cute the first time, in Holmenkollen, but it's getting too repetitive. Like she was almost as happy over making it to the semis in a TDS sprint as she was winning the 30km in Kollen. Really?