Doping in XC skiing

[Blaaswix]

Diggins with quite a miraculous 2nd half of the race in the 5km today. I know she does really well on downhills and is in good shape, but overcoming the Norwegians? She also has gained quite a noticeable amount of muscle in the last couple years. Doping? Not sure. I will say however, that now that the roles have been reversed with Russia, you won't hear much from the US nordic community. The Russians used to dominate the women's races and people like Marty Hall were yelling bloody murder! Now he'll be praising the performances of the US women who've had 2 wins in a space of a few days.

Ha, I knew a non-Norwegian must have won today because it's not mentioned in the headlines in the Norwegian news sites

 

[BullsFan22]

Diggins with quite a miraculous 2nd half of the race in the 5km today. I know she does really well on downhills and is in good shape, but overcoming the Norwegians? She also has gained quite a noticeable amount of muscle in the last couple years. Doping? Not sure. I will say however, that now that the roles have been reversed with Russia, you won't hear much from the US nordic community. The Russians used to dominate the women's races and people like Marty Hall were yelling bloody murder! Now he'll be praising the performances of the US women who've had 2 wins in a space of a few days.

Ha, I knew a non-Norwegian must have won today because it's not mentioned in the headlines in the Norwegian news sites

It was a fun race, unless you are a Norwegian Diggins had a great race (obviously), but the toll of the Tour de Ski is catching up, to everybody. Everyone looked exhausted, the top women AND the top men. Not sure what will happen tomorrow, but there are gonna be some tired people on Sunday. Johaug, even though she won the classic race the other day, looks vulnerable. She looked like she was struggling at the TV timing check point. Maybe I am too optimistic, but I think we might be in for another surprise or two tomorrow. Sadie Bjornsen for the win? Following in the footsteps of Caldwell and Diggins? In the men's, I think Poltoranin will eek out another win, he's been money at these types of races in the last 5 years. Perhaps an outsider will win? Maybe those that haven't had the results yet?

 

[Discgear]

The Norwegian freak show continues. No doubt Flugstad Oestberg was inaugurated with the secrets of the Druids this season. Have we ever seen a similar transition from sprinter to absolute first class distance monster - with unlimited recovery abilities - in shorter time before?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

The Norwegian freak show continues. No doubt Flugstad Oestberg was inaugurated with the secrets of the Druids this season. Have we ever seen a similar transition from sprinter to absolute first class distance monster - with unlimited recovery abilities - in shorter time before?

To be fair to her, she was an excellent distance skier as a junior, winning many Norwegian junior races and indeed the U18, and World Junior and U23 races. It still doesn't ring as clean though. She's really transformed herself this year. Johaug seems to be running on fumes now, if that's even possible for her. I know top form is physically unattainable the whole season, particularly when you are doing a lot of races, and a lot of races packed together, but her form has noticeably dropped while Oestberg's is growing and Weng is super consistent. I may be completely off, but at this time, I think Weng might be the most talented skier in this team.

 

[Discgear]

Re: Re:

The Norwegian freak show continues. No doubt Flugstad Oestberg was inaugurated with the secrets of the Druids this season. Have we ever seen a similar transition from sprinter to absolute first class distance monster - with unlimited recovery abilities - in shorter time before?

To be fair to her, she was an excellent distance skier as a junior, winning many Norwegian junior races and indeed the U18, and World Junior and U23 races. It still doesn't ring as clean though. She's really transformed herself this year. Johaug seems to be running on fumes now, if that's even possible for her. I know top form is physically unattainable the whole season, particularly when you are doing a lot of races, and a lot of races packed together, but her form has noticeably dropped while Oestberg's is growing and Weng is super consistent. I may be completely off, but at this time, I think Weng might be the most talented skier in this team.

Really? Johaug is still smashing everyone but some fellow Norwegians with minutes. I wouldn't call that running on fumes.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

The Norwegian freak show continues. No doubt Flugstad Oestberg was inaugurated with the secrets of the Druids this season. Have we ever seen a similar transition from sprinter to absolute first class distance monster - with unlimited recovery abilities - in shorter time before?

To be fair to her, she was an excellent distance skier as a junior, winning many Norwegian junior races and indeed the U18, and World Junior and U23 races. It still doesn't ring as clean though. She's really transformed herself this year. Johaug seems to be running on fumes now, if that's even possible for her. I know top form is physically unattainable the whole season, particularly when you are doing a lot of races, and a lot of races packed together, but her form has noticeably dropped while Oestberg's is growing and Weng is super consistent. I may be completely off, but at this time, I think Weng might be the most talented skier in this team.

Really? Johaug is still smashing everyone but some fellow Norwegians with minutes. I wouldn't call that running on fumes.

I think it explains what I and I am sure many others are saying, the field is very shallow in the women's division. 5 minutes into a 10km race and the top 5 are already gapping the field and running away with it. As I said her form is dropping, while it doesn't mean much to the grand scheme of things, as far as places 5-last are concerned, it's noticeable for her. She crushed the early season races, crushed the 15km in Lenzerheide, where she went alone after literally 90 seconds of skiing and nobody saw her after that. Of course, the Norwegian domination was to be expected. The biggest surprise is Oestberg, but her steady racing this year and Johaug's drop of form has made this tour at least a little bit interesting. Obviously still not that fun to watch when it's a Norway 1-2-3- and sometimes 4, in these races, but at least Johaug isn't winning everything like most thought she would. Perhaps 'fumes' is a little too strong, but she is, dare i say, struggled to stay with Oestberg and Weng at times today.

 

[Blaaswix]

In a pre-race interview, Johaug suggested that she still had something to give on Sunday, but today she did not look convincing. She looked like she was breathing harder and her technique was messier than usual, IMHO. Horrible artificial snow klister conditions all the way through the tour, but if there's any mistakes in the waxing tomorrow it will show up on the big hill tomorrow. There may still be some life in this tour (but that's a hopeless optimist's opinion).

A real shame to see Cologna go out of the tour today, maybe a muscular injury caused by loss of grip.

 

[John de Savage]

Re: Re:

Really? Johaug is still smashing everyone but some fellow Norwegians with minutes. I wouldn't call that running on fumes.

Compare the last few TdS stages with the following races:

Ruka (FIN) Ladies’ 5 km F

1 JOHAUG Therese 11:23.8

4 WENG Heidi +26.0
5 OESTBERG Ingvild Flugstad +26.9

Lillehammer (NOR) Ladies’ Skiathlon7.5km/7.5km C/F

1 JOHAUG Therese 42:17.7
2 WENG Heidi +1:29.3

10 OESTBERG Ingvild Flugstad +2:24.0

Davos (SUI) Ladies’ 15 km F

1 JOHAUG Therese 35:40.3
2 OESTBERG Ingvild Flugstad +1:10.3
3 WENG Heidi +1:15.3

Toblach (ITA) Ladies’ 10 km C

1 JOHAUG Therese 27:22.4

3 OESTBERG Ingvild Flugstad +40.1
4 WENG Heidi +45.2

Lenzerheide (SUI) Ladies’ 15 km C Mst

1 JOHAUG Therese 41:26.4
2 OESTBERG Ingvild Flugstad +37.9
3 WENG Heidi +1:16.2

Bit of a difference maybe?

 

[Discgear]

As I said: Johaug is still smashing everyone but some fellow Norwegians with minutes
XC-skiing truly has become a Norwegian freak show and a sad excuse for a sport. When I first started to write in the forum it was an interest to really find out what happened in the 90s and especially supposedly clean Norwegians beating the hell out of proven dopers in the EPO era. I actually had no suspicions about the current generation. However everything changed with the maneuvers from the Norwegian Ski Federation in connection with the SVT documentary in 2013 and the statements by the late Bengt Saltin. Knowing that the same people that were involved in the 90s are still running the Red army casts serious doubts over this and the last seasons Norwegian dominance,.

 

[BullsFan22]

As I said: Johaug is still smashing everyone but some fellow Norwegians with minutes
XC-skiing truly has become a Norwegian freak show and a sad excuse for a sport. When I first started to write in the forum it was an interest to really find out what happened in the 90s and especially supposedly clean Norwegians beating the hell out of proven dopers in the EPO era. I actually had no suspicions about the current generation. However everything changed with the maneuvers from the Norwegian Ski Federation in connection with the SVT documentary in 2013 and the statements by the late Bengt Saltin. Knowing that the same people that were involved in the 90s are still running the Red army casts serious doubts over this and the last seasons Norwegian dominance,.

I had to watch the men's 15km today again. Just so I could make sure what I watched live earlier in the day was real. I still can't believe how easily Sundby crushed the field, apart from Dyrhaug and Poltoranin, but the win was never in doubt. He changed tracks, he looked around, he slowed the pace he upped the pace he went for the bonus seconds as he pleased. I am starting to think that Oberstdorf 15km was only for entertainment and false hope for the rest of the racers and everyone watching at home. The time gaps without the bonuses are around 1:15, which is still significant, given how tightly bunched 2-6 are, and everyone up to 14/15 isn't too far behind 6th. I don't care how efficient Sundby's technique is, these aren't juniors he is going up against, these are other top skiers and he's making them look like juniors. Whatever he's been eating the last three seasons, this season especially, I'll have it.

 

[Cloxxki]

Re: the difference between the lead and the back, and lapping.
We kind of have to assume that those in the back are at worst terrible dopers, and might as well have gone clean. And I do honestly feel at the back there will be cleans. More so than in the TdF where red lantern are at home famous for nicknames that includes banned substances.
The front of the pack, who doubts that the pace is being set by dopers who would have been there anyway in a clean field? That opens up the gap a lot. If there is 5% between the top 70 women when clean (7% in climbing speed?), dopers leading it will boost that waaaaaay past 10-%. From what Í've read on doping over the year, the performance boost is so radical, that I as a modest national bike racer may well have made pro. In skiing, aerobic power is even more important than in MTB. More time spent on climbs, less on downhills, and less of a difference to be made with above average downhilling skill.

The relative performances of various skiers year on year and even during this season, I cannot help but feel unscheduled pan e aqua is a factor. In some cases blood bags that didn't make their intended deployment. Were perhaps letters sent? Skiers elected to be the next stars? Others told that their run had been terminated? Targeted testing announced to force some to back off? Even during the TdS?

Sundby from an off-day back to regular dominant form.

 

[Blaaswix]

Re:

I get the impression that most of the field thinks Johaug should have been punished for skating this week. Northug seems to get away with quite a lot (!) all the time but then he's just been named as sporting 'name of the year' in Norway so let's not spoil the party, eh.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Re: Re:

I get the impression that most of the field thinks Johaug should have been punished for skating this week. Northug seems to get away with quite a lot (!) all the time but then he's just been named as sporting 'name of the year' in Norway so let's not spoil the party, eh.

Norwegians cheats always get away with everything. If Johaug and Northug were Russian they'd been punished within ablink of an eye.

 

[markene2]

Johaug beats Østberg is 2.59 in the alpine hill. *** farce!!

 

[meat puppet]

Clearly Östberg did not have stone ground skis.

 

[John de Savage]

Re: Re:

I get the impression that most of the field thinks Johaug should have been punished for skating this week. Northug seems to get away with quite a lot (!) all the time but then he's just been named as sporting 'name of the year' in Norway so let's not spoil the party, eh.

Norwegians cheats always get away with everything. If Johaug and Northug were Russian they'd been punished within ablink of an eye.

Dyrhaug was relegated for skating in the classic sprint. Pretty sure he's as norwegian as Johaug.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

I get the impression that most of the field thinks Johaug should have been punished for skating this week. Northug seems to get away with quite a lot (!) all the time but then he's just been named as sporting 'name of the year' in Norway so let's not spoil the party, eh.

Norwegians cheats always get away with everything. If Johaug and Northug were Russian they'd been punished within ablink of an eye.

Dyrhaug was relegated for skating in the classic sprint. Pretty sure he's as norwegian as Johaug.

He wasn't a threat for the overall. Sundby and Johaug skated several times, only a warning was issued.

 

[John de Savage]

Re: Re:

I get the impression that most of the field thinks Johaug should have been punished for skating this week. Northug seems to get away with quite a lot (!) all the time but then he's just been named as sporting 'name of the year' in Norway so let's not spoil the party, eh.

Norwegians cheats always get away with everything. If Johaug and Northug were Russian they'd been punished within ablink of an eye.

Dyrhaug was relegated for skating in the classic sprint. Pretty sure he's as norwegian as Johaug.

He wasn't a threat for the overall. Sundby and Johaug skated several times, only a warning was issued.

I agree, TJ was given favourable treatment by the jury because they didn't have the guts to take out an (the) overall contender.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

I get the impression that most of the field thinks Johaug should have been punished for skating this week. Northug seems to get away with quite a lot (!) all the time but then he's just been named as sporting 'name of the year' in Norway so let's not spoil the party, eh.

Norwegians cheats always get away with everything. If Johaug and Northug were Russian they'd been punished within ablink of an eye.

Dyrhaug was relegated for skating in the classic sprint. Pretty sure he's as norwegian as Johaug.

He wasn't a threat for the overall. Sundby and Johaug skated several times, only a warning was issued.

I agree, TJ was given favourable treatment by the jury because they didn't have the guts to take out an (the) overall contender.

Did she have a 'yellow card' next to her name prior to that sprint race, or was it given after that particular race? Perhaps that's why they did nothing. Another yellow and she would have been gone. She did it on multiple occasions. Definitely yellow card worthy.

 

[John de Savage]

Re: Re:

Did she have a 'yellow card' next to her name prior to that sprint race, or was it given after that particular race? Perhaps that's why they did nothing. Another yellow and she would have been gone. She did it on multiple occasions. Definitely yellow card worthy.

Yup, she was carrying a yellow from a pre-TdS race and another one would've meant a 3 minute time penalty. Maurice Manificat received his 1st card for an almost identical incident in the men's sprint.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Did she have a 'yellow card' next to her name prior to that sprint race, or was it given after that particular race? Perhaps that's why they did nothing. Another yellow and she would have been gone. She did it on multiple occasions. Definitely yellow card worthy.

Yup, she was carrying a yellow from a pre-TdS race and another one would've meant a 3 minute time penalty. Maurice Manificat received his 1st card for an almost identical incident in the men's sprint.

Norwegian NRK wrote that Kowalczyk, in an interview with Polish TV, said that Johaug should have gotten a 3 minute penalty, as per rules, and she also said that a number of other skiers thought it should have been given. Manificat said she should have gotten a penalty as well. At least Johaug was 'nervous' in the jury room when they discussed the incident with her. Obviously it was blatant and she knew she was caught with her hand in the cookie jar. Obviously, the jury are afraid to penalize top Norwegians.

 

[abcdaniel]

Johaug beat 18 of the male contestants up Alpe Cermis (just the climb part), including all Swedes. Johaug is a natural climber and the best Swedes were at home, but still it is silly, Johaug smiling and jumping for photographers after crossing the finishing line, which she did carrying a flag. Stats from Aftonbladet, http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/vintersport/skidor/article22067207.ab

 

[May0maniac]

Re:

Johaug beat 18 of the male contestants up Alpe Cermis (just the climb part), including all Swedes. Johaug is a natural climber and the best Swedes were at home, but still it is silly, Johaug smiling and jumping for photographers after crossing the finishing line, which she did carrying a flag. Stats from Aftonbladet, http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/vintersport/skidor/article22067207.ab

Johaug with 6 months of training on a bike vs the worlds best female cyclists in a Zoncolan MTT and Johaug vs them in a road stage with a Stelvio MTF, I'd pay good money to see that.
Her dominance is just boring, I used to her because she was capable to go toe to toe with full *** Bjørgen.

 

[Cloxxki]

I feel similarly.
Her mental state and physiology are just so invincible for everything except sprinting. Skiing is so selective, and exagerbates her advantage. Indeed, full *** Bjoergen made watching Johaug more interesting. Only Johaug could drop heavyweight bodybuilder Bjoergen, on the very most brutally long and steep climbs.

There is no doubt in my mind that if Johaug gets to show up at such a bike race where her body style is rewarded, she'll be a factor. On running shoes she's not so shabby either. Make a truly hilly XC run course and you'll need a guy to beat her. But not a Swede, those are slow.
Perhaps we are at a point where athletics and XC skiing and biathlon are just allowing huge advantages for certain athletes. Like the Armstrong days in cycling, but more complex than that. Perhaps Johaug would not come to that bike race because she would be caught right away.

On a level playing there is no doubt in my mind Johaug would rise to the top also. She may even be more invincible, and the whole overlap with Bjoergen would not have been there if all went clean. Kowalczyk on a level playing field would lose to Johaug due to her later entry to the sport, being less stable on her feet. Almost no-one makes an impact on the sport trying skis so late in life. It's easier to skip karting to become a Formula 1 champion than to start skiing later in life.

On Kowalczyk, I wonder why she even shows up anymore. Is she establishing what pan e aqua means? Is she doing the doping andd training she can, but now finally her mental issues are holding back her performances on skis? Does she love the sport so much that she just wants to be part of it? You don't see that often from someone who's been so dominant. Obviously her mental situation is fascinating in itself, but there seems to be much more.

It's curious to me that Oestberg stayed in the red bib for 7 stages and then loses so much on the final stage. Even on the gradual downhill she lost 38 seconds already. Why could Bjoergen with her buckets of useless muscle ski up Alpe Cermis faster than relatively skinny Oestberg? Makes little sense to me.
Perhaps in this case the mental side was a real factor for Johaug v Oestberg. That final stage is something different, and Johaug attacks it like anything, Oestberg perhaps was not ready to do dig as deep as needed to actually win a TdS when it most matters.

That so many men skied up slower than Johaug who was not even challenged and had tired herself so much in the approach, that's an odd thing. In cycling you could sort of expect that, but in skiing uphilling is simply 70% of what you do. You don't make it to the final stage if you're not a very special specimen. To be girled then...
Actually in Biathlon we've seen that the top women were lapping at the pace of male backmarkers. But those were then from minor nations which don't even get to the TdS.

We didn't hear much of Andrew Young anymore, but he did again have that very fast qualifier in the TdS. Seems his rise top top form was not just one-time affair. Britains can now beat most Norwegians in qualifying.

 

[BullsFan22]

I feel similarly.
Her mental state and physiology are just so invincible for everything except sprinting. Skiing is so selective, and exagerbates her advantage. Indeed, full *** Bjoergen made watching Johaug more interesting. Only Johaug could drop heavyweight bodybuilder Bjoergen, on the very most brutally long and steep climbs.

There is no doubt in my mind that if Johaug gets to show up at such a bike race where her body style is rewarded, she'll be a factor. On running shoes she's not so shabby either. Make a truly hilly XC run course and you'll need a guy to beat her. But not a Swede, those are slow.
Perhaps we are at a point where athletics and XC skiing and biathlon are just allowing huge advantages for certain athletes. Like the Armstrong days in cycling, but more complex than that. Perhaps Johaug would not come to that bike race because she would be caught right away.

On a level playing there is no doubt in my mind Johaug would rise to the top also. She may even be more invincible, and the whole overlap with Bjoergen would not have been there if all went clean. Kowalczyk on a level playing field would lose to Johaug due to her later entry to the sport, being less stable on her feet. Almost no-one makes an impact on the sport trying skis so late in life. It's easier to skip karting to become a Formula 1 champion than to start skiing later in life.

On Kowalczyk, I wonder why she even shows up anymore. Is she establishing what pan e aqua means? Is she doing the doping andd training she can, but now finally her mental issues are holding back her performances on skis? Does she love the sport so much that she just wants to be part of it? You don't see that often from someone who's been so dominant. Obviously her mental situation is fascinating in itself, but there seems to be much more.

It's curious to me that Oestberg stayed in the red bib for 7 stages and then loses so much on the final stage. Even on the gradual downhill she lost 38 seconds already. Why could Bjoergen with her buckets of useless muscle ski up Alpe Cermis faster than relatively skinny Oestberg? Makes little sense to me.
Perhaps in this case the mental side was a real factor for Johaug v Oestberg. That final stage is something different, and Johaug attacks it like anything, Oestberg perhaps was not ready to do dig as deep as needed to actually win a TdS when it most matters.

That so many men skied up slower than Johaug who was not even challenged and had tired herself so much in the approach, that's an odd thing. In cycling you could sort of expect that, but in skiing uphilling is simply 70% of what you do. You don't make it to the final stage if you're not a very special specimen. To be girled then...
Actually in Biathlon we've seen that the top women were lapping at the pace of male backmarkers. But those were then from minor nations which don't even get to the TdS.

We didn't hear much of Andrew Young anymore, but he did again have that very fast qualifier in the TdS. Seems his rise top top form was not just one-time affair. Britains can now beat most Norwegians in qualifying.

First of all, Oestberg is not skinny. She is solidly built. You can see the background in football in her physique. Her legs are strongly built and her upper body is as well. Not to the extent of Bjoergen, but she is definitely not skinny.

Andrew Young was injured in the Lenzerheide sprint when his left hand was jerked back in a fall due to the advertisement rope on the side of the trail.

Kowalczyk said this was likely her last tour. She's had a number of significant injuries in the last few years. Let's also not forget the multiple knee surgeries she's had prior to being the best in the world. Cologna is a little similar. I don't think he's recovered from the ankle injury he suffered in the fall of 2013. Yes, he won two golds in Sochi, had a silver in Falun last year, but very little else. I think he's only had one or two world cup wins since Sochi. Perhaps motivation is lacking in him as well.