Doping in XC skiing

[BullsFan22]

I agree the Norwegians are as sketchy as anything in the past. You would think with their sheer dominance and huge national/financial support structure (relatively speaking) they could *try* to do it right for one season. Kinda like how you see some cyclists blow the doors off one season then become 'normal' once they sign a big contract. I bet they'd still do alright given the shallow pool of competitors right now.

Either way, the more lopsided the sport is the quicker it will be killed off, from which no one gets fame, glory, or money.

What do you see as the way forward?

You are right on the shallow pool of competitors, particularly in the women's field. It still doesn't take away from the fact that Johaug dominated. The 30km in Oslo really defined the season.

Sundby is even more suspicious. Look at his history and how he wasn't able to finish the first 5 or 6 50km races and now he is dominating everyone. He won his first world cup as a 24 year old, then took four years to win his second and since the 2013/2014 he is unbeaten in the overall world cup, distance cup and has won every mini tour (including three straight tour de skis). And on top of that, he supposedly 'suffers' from asthma?

I am not sure what the best way forward is. I say either have an absolute strict policy in place, or let everyone do whatever they want, but as in other organizations, there is money and interests involved and no way will any of the Norwegians, certainly none of the top hitters like Sundby, Northug, Bjoergen, Johaug, etc get busted. Northug got a slap on the wrist for drunk driving two years ago and apparently drunk driving is as serious offense in Norway as anything else.

I see more of the same in regards to doping in xc skiing, the Russians will be targeted and you might see a few more of them popped, meldonium findings likely, while everyone turns a blind eye to other suspicious racing.

 

[Cloxxki]

Don't forget that Sundby has been starting to upset sprint events now also. Doublepoling them.
I for one am dreading Bjoergen's come back. I hate having to skip past her post race interviews. She's been so blatant for so many years, I can't stomach her. Not to say I think Johaug is clean, but to casually follow her, bodybuilder versus svelt duracell bunny on multi-minute climbs in a 30k, just not cool. My intelligence feels deeply violated.
One thing I miss with the ARD footage is Germans being ousted. It's focused on sports that Germans are rubbish at. Marathon running, really? Why not biathlon? Nothing to see there? And the Russian agenda is more than suspect in its timing. Why not Spain, our EU partners? Russia makes EU and Germany look silly (and outright evil) in international politics and warfare but let's focus on how they state-fund doping please. All too convenient.
Truth is great, but context should never be underestimated.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Don't forget that Sundby has been starting to upset sprint events now also. Doublepoling them.
I for one am dreading Bjoergen's come back. I hate having to skip past her post race interviews. She's been so blatant for so many years, I can't stomach her. Not to say I think Johaug is clean, but to casually follow her, bodybuilder versus svelt duracell bunny on multi-minute climbs in a 30k, just not cool. My intelligence feels deeply violated.
One thing I miss with the ARD footage is Germans being ousted. It's focused on sports that Germans are rubbish at. Marathon running, really? Why not biathlon? Nothing to see there? And the Russian agenda is more than suspect in its timing. Why not Spain, our EU partners? Russia makes EU and Germany look silly (and outright evil) in international politics and warfare but let's focus on how they state-fund doping please. All too convenient.
Truth is great, but context should never be underestimated.

Agreed on all points. It appears that the few Norwegians who commented on these threads disappeared once we started talking about the Norwegians skiers more and more. Interesting.

 

[Cloxxki]

Re: Re:

Agreed on all points. It appears that the few Norwegians who commented on these threads disappeared once we started talking about the Norwegians skiers more and more. Interesting.

It's understandable, I know how it feels. When I first came here, I was an Armstrong fanboy. I couldn't make sense of what anyway was saying. Until it sank in. I'd raced throught most of the EPO era and underestimated the true potential of doping. Perhaps I was not so bad after all.
I've lost heroes on doping, and my expanding understanding of it. No way they were clean.

I wonder how the Norwegians do it. And what they do. Is it something no-one does or knows? Almost MUST be state-sponsored?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Agreed on all points. It appears that the few Norwegians who commented on these threads disappeared once we started talking about the Norwegians skiers more and more. Interesting.

It's understandable, I know how it feels. When I first came here, I was an Armstrong fanboy. I couldn't make sense of what anyway was saying. Until it sank in. I'd raced throught most of the EPO era and underestimated the true potential of doping. Perhaps I was not so bad after all.
I've lost heroes on doping, and my expanding understanding of it. No way they were clean.

I wonder how the Norwegians do it. And what they do. Is it something no-one does or knows? Almost MUST be state-sponsored?

In regards to heroes being found out during or after their careers, it's almost ho hum for me. I never really had a 'hero,' or at least some one I would drool over, but I admired Ullrich. His never say die attitude. He apparently also had respect as a rider and person in the peloton. Of course, after he was withdrawn due to his association in the Operation Puerto in 2006 and when he officially retired in 2007, news came of him paying doctors, visiting doctors, some intimidation of people like Werner Franke (if memory serves me right) makes me think a little less of him, but his riding was somewhat unique and he seemed, at least in racing and the interviews he gave and what people thought of him, made me respect him. I still remember watching the Tour in 96, 97 (especially that year he won) and 98 and thinking how 'cool' he was to ride in the saddle on those massive climbs. Obviously he was one of the many guys on some sort of program and it yielded nice results for him, but his talents were no doubt. Those 90's Rudy's were also sweet! Can't beat Rudy's for skiing, running or biking sessions!

As far as the Norwegians are concerned, they have their own way of manipulating, I am sure of that. I think the number of Norwegians working as 'higher ups' in FIS, WADA and the IBU helps them out. They are nicely protected and obviously xc skiing being their national sport, you don't want anyone messing that up. It's interesting that Legkov got a surprising amount of 'defense' by his Norwegian peers like Northug, Toenseth, etc. They are all in the 'unless there is verifiable 100% proof, he is innocent.' That also can be seen on instagram. From what I could tell the last few years, Legkov and Northug are good buddies, have trained together on a number of occasions and obviously have had nice battles on the tracks over the years. It's probably also omertà in play.

 

[kosmonaut]

Re: Re:

Agreed on all points. It appears that the few Norwegians who commented on these threads disappeared once we started talking about the Norwegians skiers more and more. Interesting.

I don't think so. I read and post here with great interest, and apart from a few fanboys, most of my countrymen here seem quite enlightened.

Mainstream Norway continue to praise these amazing sweeps, but more and more can't stomach it. Not that they necessarily think there's doping, but it's not really interesting to follow. There's quite a few examples that are clear to you and me as dodgy as hell, but the thing troubling me now is that the competitor pool is so shallow, especially in the womens field, that it's starting to become difficult to know for sure.

I've talked a bit with a former pro athlete (not skier), and he has no problem telling me stories about how Norwegians were getting IVs before they were banned and how people are balancing in gray areas. He's also quite open about who he thinks are crossing the line, which is really interesting. The Norwegian XC women, however, gets a pass because he believes the international level is extremely low compared to other sports.

 

[python]

i sure didn't expect my favourite winter thread to get jumped in july. thus i just caught up with the updates.

great inputs from all, including a very balanced post by cosmo.

i have nothing special to add, except that fis is taking a wise wait and see approach on meldonium (they are sitting on few positives). my hunch is that there will be NO new doping meldonium cases against the russians.

regarding, the sochi allegations, imo, vyleg and legkov will survive. i have no idea if they doped, but to single them out would raise more questions about more athletes, including my darlings sweeds, and a certain miraculously recovered swiss etc...the fis is wiser than a tennis fed for instance as it has much less ground to feed itself off if it drops too many mines.

regarding the norges...sundby is as suspisious as it can be. not so northug imo. i had spent some time looking into his performances mathematically (some was posted here). i could be wrong as hell but he's very consistent wrt his actual results compared to projections given his natural strengths or natural weakness. can't stand either bjoergen or johaug, but will agree with cosmo and others about the lack of depth in the ladies field.

for instance - this is from a well informed source - the average vo2max among the russian ladies was just above 60 in 2014 where as the norge ladies boasted an average over 70. almost a 15% difference !

 

[Lyon]

The 'gray area' thing was talked about by Ulvang et al already back in the early 90's. Deflection? Quite possibly.

As for this thread... It is kept alive by a few individuals routinely patting themselves on the back but never bringing anything of substance. In terms of real knowledge and actual information it is probably the worst thread in the whole clinic, which is sad, since it is about an interesting subject.

Personally I don't care about the actual skiing, but I have experience enough from other sports in Norway to safely state that the Norwegian skiers as a whole is viewed with suspicion. Even more so since they refuse to share knowledge and information. During the nineties they become a more and more closed and incestious group, and anybody with some experience from sports knows what that usually means - big secrets.

As in cycling, track and field and, really, any sport, if you want to know what's up, follow certain people as they move around between groups and federations. Norwegian cross-country skiing, especially on the mens side, only got good once certain Swedes was brought over. Just as later everybody wanted norwegian ski preps, coaches, agents etc.

I think that, in many ways, the story of Norwegian cross country skiing from the late eighties and onwards have a parallel in the development of British cycling. Decisions are made to allow your athletes to compete at the highest level whatever it takes, money is prepared, people are brought in, but there is an element of stubbornness involved - you want to do it in your own way. Quite quickly results are improving, but not quite to the extent that you want it to. What to do? Easy... If you can't beat them, join them. You put aside your stubbornness and copy the others, not just fifty percent like before but a hundred percent. This is the big leap. Now there is no more fooling yourself into thinking you are different and no more going back - you are just like everybody else out there. Still, the results keeps on improving - you are the new kid on the block, with energy to spare and the resources to do it better than the others. There is no magic involved. Sky is the limit.

Most importantly, you, the people in sport, are now at the avant-garde - your audience is not yet ready for the intimate knowledge of what you are doing, so you cover it all up in words and jargon. It is an open secret covered in little lies, but the people that counts knows - and that group is slowly growing, until 'everybody' knows and it is accepted.

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

In terms of real knowledge and actual information it is probably the worst thread in the whole clinic

I have to disagree strongly. That's total BS.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

The 'gray area' thing was talked about by Ulvang et al already back in the early 90's. Deflection? Quite possibly.

As for this thread... It is kept alive by a few individuals routinely patting themselves on the back but never bringing anything of substance. In terms of real knowledge and actual information it is probably the worst thread in the whole clinic, which is sad, since it is about an interesting subject.

Personally I don't care about the actual skiing, but I have experience enough from other sports in Norway to safely state that the Norwegian skiers as a whole is viewed with suspicion. Even more so since they refuse to share knowledge and information. During the nineties they become a more and more closed and incestious group, and anybody with some experience from sports knows what that usually means - big secrets.

As in cycling, track and field and, really, any sport, if you want to know what's up, follow certain people as they move around between groups and federations. Norwegian cross-country skiing, especially on the mens side, only got good once certain Swedes was brought over. Just as later everybody wanted norwegian ski preps, coaches, agents etc.

I think that, in many ways, the story of Norwegian cross country skiing from the late eighties and onwards have a parallel in the development of British cycling. Decisions are made to allow your athletes to compete at the highest level whatever it takes, money is prepared, people are brought in, but there is an element of stubbornness involved - you want to do it in your own way. Quite quickly results are improving, but not quite to the extent that you want it to. What to do? Easy... If you can't beat them, join them. You put aside your stubbornness and copy the others, not just fifty percent like before but a hundred percent. This is the big leap. Now there is no more fooling yourself into thinking you are different and no more going back - you are just like everybody else out there. Still, the results keeps on improving - you are the new kid on the block, with energy to spare and the resources to do it better than the others. There is no magic involved. Sky is the limit.

Most importantly, you, the people in sport, are now at the avant-garde - your audience is not yet ready for the intimate knowledge of what you are doing, so you cover it all up in words and jargon. It is an open secret covered in little lies, but the people that counts knows - and that group is slowly growing, until 'everybody' knows and it is accepted.

What sort of 'substance' are/were we supposed to bring? I am going to venture and say most of the posters here don't have the 'ins and outs' of drug testing and have never worked with anti-doping institutions, national federations of olympic committees. Of course, the easy way out would be say 'didn't test positive, so clean.' I get it. That's been used since inception of drug use in sports, but what sort of information, specific information, are we supposed to provide here that you think is of 'substance?' Do we need to provide dope testing results from all WC athletes from last year, for example? I don't think many of us have that sort of power and access. I know some skiers from a few national teams, but I never bothered to ask about doping and testing. If I do decide to ask them, how should I pose the question(s)?

 

[kosmonaut]

Boom.

https://www.nrk.no/sport/sundby-utestengt-etter-for-hoye-doser-av-astmamedisin-1.13050825

MJS losing Tour de Ski title for violating WADA rules regarding his asthma medicine. Norwegian ski federation taking blame for telling him he didn't need to apply for a TUE.

 

[Big_Blue_Dave]

Re:

Boom.

https://www.nrk.no/sport/sundby-utestengt-etter-for-hoye-doser-av-astmamedisin-1.13050825

MJS losing Tour de Ski title for violating WADA rules regarding his asthma medicine. Norwegian ski federation taking blame for telling him he didn't need to apply for a TUE.

And for those wanting the CAS decision in English.

http://www.fis-ski.com/cross-countr...oss-country-skier-martin-johnsrud-sundby.html

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Boom.

https://www.nrk.no/sport/sundby-utestengt-etter-for-hoye-doser-av-astmamedisin-1.13050825

MJS losing Tour de Ski title for violating WADA rules regarding his asthma medicine. Norwegian ski federation taking blame for telling him he didn't need to apply for a TUE.

Right. What are the chances he is acquitted, FIS, CAS and WADA call it a technicality, his suspension annulled and his results and rankings re-instated?

 

[python]

yep, a huge groundbreaking news ! the 1st norge xc skier EVER to be officially popped

an obvious doper sundby.

so much for 'non-performance enhancing asthma meds'

 

[kosmonaut]

The impressive thing here is that the lid was kept on for 1.5 years. Not one single journalist wrote a thing about it.

 

[BullsFan22]

So this makes Dolidovich the 50km winner from Sochi? Ha!

In all seriousness, look at FIS's official statement regarding Sundby. At the end they feel the need to stress that essentially this was not malicious or that Sundby was trying to enhance his performances. Did they really need to wait 1 1/2 years for this sort of explanation to be made? Must be something more to this than simply him not having a TUE. Is this a case, where like the Russians, something gets through the hole before the hole is closed? And how convenient, this gets announced in the middle of Summer, and he gets a two month ban (in the Summer! LMFAO) for something that clearly happened during the WC season. Why not annul all of his results from that year and suspend him for two years? He can keep last years results. Or something similar.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

The impressive thing here is that the lid was kept on for 1.5 years. Not one single journalist wrote a thing about it.

Strange, isn't it? Not a single peep from anyone, be it the Norwegian camp (coaches, officials, journalists...) or anyone from international federations (FIS, WADA, CAS). It makes you wonder what really goes on, and not just for Norwegians or Russians, but for everyone that did dope or has irregularities in their system. So much for being open and transparent. I get the idea of keeping the name silent if it was a case of test A is positive, but let's wait until test B to make a sound decision. This was ho-hum. "Well, it was simply a case of TUE technicalities that the Norwegian officials didn't explain well enough to Sundby, therefore Sundby took more illegal substances than prescribed to eek out any possible advantage he could....but this isn't doping." Did I miss anything?

 

[Blaaswix]

Re: Re:

The impressive thing here is that the lid was kept on for 1.5 years. Not one single journalist wrote a thing about it.

Strange, isn't it? Not a single peep from anyone, be it the Norwegian camp (coaches, officials, journalists...) or anyone from international federations (FIS, WADA, CAS). It makes you wonder what really goes on, and not just for Norwegians or Russians, but for everyone that did dope or has irregularities in their system. So much for being open and transparent. I get the idea of keeping the name silent if it was a case of test A is positive, but let's wait until test B to make a sound decision. This was ho-hum. "Well, it was simply a case of TUE technicalities that the Norwegian officials didn't explain well enough to Sundby, therefore Sundby took more illegal substances than prescribed to eek out any possible advantage he could....but this isn't doping." Did I miss anything?

I'll second that. Very worrying collusion to keep the lid on it.

 

[markene2]

Love it. Sundby has been far to dominant. Reading the comments in the Norwegian media is even better, everyone defending him while they at the same time piss on russians. XC doping is state sponsored no doubt.

 

[python]

the ground breaking news in our small sport brings up more questions...hear everyone, the collusion is obvious and worrying. moreover, the very fis document linked above basically admits that they tried to get martin off the hook...

BUT, BUT..I am encouraged, sorry for the beat up cliche, by this small step in the right direction !!

as much as the wording of the cas press release was trying to minimize the doping offense, they finally established the precedent of the 'first ever norge skier doper'. i'll take what i get before i form any harsher opinions

we are preparing for the vacation atm, but i will try to find the time to read the full 59-page cas decision.

several loaded issues are now ripe for exploration:

1. indeed, how did the fis succeed keeping the lid. yes, it is absolutely remarkable given the today's situation. forgive me for the harsh comparison, but it smell mafia-like, what's the right word... omerta. did the norges really succeed building a lip tight secret society around their pet sport ? how many more of the secret society nuts and bolts are we still to be learn about ?

2. the politics of anti-doping.
i understand the criticism towards wada, but people should be fairer abit...it was wada that appealed and got the precedent on the books. they did not have to appeal given the really tight budget.

3. the ridiculously light punishment of 2 months. i cantt say more of anything objective until i read the full document

4. the fact that the anti-asthma med EXCESSIVE DOSE was what popped sundby, will now deserve a serious discussion - generally dismissed by the 'scientific community' out of hand - a discussion about the real performance enhancement. and hopefully more solid research into the doses. i was always convinced that for some individuals the anti-asthma meds are plain and strong doping stimulants - as they in fact are chemically classified.

let the ball start rolling !!

 

[Discgear]

Re:

the ground breaking news in our small sport brings up more questions...hear everyone, the collusion is obvious and worrying. moreover, the very fis document linked above basically admits that they tried to get martin off the hook...

BUT, BUT..I am encouraged, sorry for the beat up cliche, by this small step in the right direction !!

as much as the wording of the cas press release was trying to minimize the doping offense, they finally established the precedent of the 'first ever norge skier doper'. i'll take what i get before i form any harsher opinions

we are preparing for the vacation atm, but i will try to find the time to read the full 59-page cas decision.

several loaded issues are now ripe for exploration:

.... leaning back, opening the first bag with popcorn ....

 

[roundabout]

So this makes Dolidovich the 50km winner from Sochi? Ha!

In all seriousness, look at FIS's official statement regarding Sundby. At the end they feel the need to stress that essentially this was not malicious or that Sundby was trying to enhance his performances. Did they really need to wait 1 1/2 years for this sort of explanation to be made? Must be something more to this than simply him not having a TUE. Is this a case, where like the Russians, something gets through the hole before the hole is closed? And how convenient, this gets announced in the middle of Summer, and he gets a two month ban (in the Summer! LMFAO) for something that clearly happened during the WC season. Why not annul all of his results from that year and suspend him for two years? He can keep last years results. Or something similar.

At least he has lost the overall title together with the Tour de Ski title.

 

[BullsFan22]

So this makes Dolidovich the 50km winner from Sochi? Ha!

In all seriousness, look at FIS's official statement regarding Sundby. At the end they feel the need to stress that essentially this was not malicious or that Sundby was trying to enhance his performances. Did they really need to wait 1 1/2 years for this sort of explanation to be made? Must be something more to this than simply him not having a TUE. Is this a case, where like the Russians, something gets through the hole before the hole is closed? And how convenient, this gets announced in the middle of Summer, and he gets a two month ban (in the Summer! LMFAO) for something that clearly happened during the WC season. Why not annul all of his results from that year and suspend him for two years? He can keep last years results. Or something similar.

At least he has lost the overall title together with the Tour de Ski title.

Yeah, like Python said above, it's a start!

 

[May0maniac]

Nobody knew about it, maybe the gave him a soft ban durning the summer as a warning, tune it down and don't make it look that easy, who knows...
Petter finally got his Tour de Ski win, Libertine is probably partying hard right now.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

Nobody knew about it, maybe the gave him a soft ban durning the summer as a warning, tune it down and don't make it look that easy, who knows...
Petter finally got his Tour de Ski win, Libertine is probably partying hard right now.

If it means he's finally achieved all he wants and can now p**s off to the prison sentence he didn't serve, then I'm all for it.