Doping in XC skiing

[dukoff]

Re: Re:

You're listing the reported conversation between the doctor and the athlete as a fact - failing to recognize anything the defendants say should be treated with a high degree of suspicion.

If you refer to the "doping list" quote, that's from the press conference. Bendiksen says Johaug asked "if the cream was ok, (implied if it's on the doping list)". While if he wanted to cover for her, why didn't he say she asked "if it was on the doping list"? He corrected her statement to her disadvantage. Same with the packaging.. Why they said she got it, when so much to her disadvantage?

I'm just pointing out inconsistencies with a cover-up-theory. And they are many. If you try to fit them into a full storyline, (like I did) it simply will not work, if you are honest and include them all.

As you've described the scenario, it certainly doesn't make sense. But with just a small adjustment it will. If the well-renowned medic..
....
Johaug’s problems with eating enough food and building muscles a few years back

Yes you argue for some motive of the doctor. That will always be possible to do. But if true, then the storyline should otherwise fit into that picture. The other details I make which are inconsistent you leave unexplained. If you try to put them all together, you get into trouble. I'm all for exploring all hypothesis, but usually, when all details try to be fitted, the invalid ones will fall apart. If there are enough details that is, which in this case I think there is.

All the Norwegian team have focused and developed on bulk leg strength over the last years. This was really the fruits after Marit's devotion to heavy lifting, squatting etc, and transferring some of that approach. Women do have a natural potential of quite powerful legs. Not such a difficult area to develop as the upper body. I wouldn't say Johaug has developed much else than the legs, from purely a bulk-size view. Something anyone is able to do. But first obviously you must realize it's a great advantage, then train for it. And it does take a few years to develop.

 

[abcdaniel]

Last season Johaug was skiing like Mühlegg.

 

[Discgear]

Re: Re:

The other details I make which are inconsistent you leave unexplained. If you try to put them all together, you get into trouble.

I'm not sure what unexplained inconsistencies you are referring to. I tried to give an alternative to the scenario you did put out. I think the whole perspective changes if you accept it might have been a cover-up story. In my opinion this inevitably involves the doctor being part of a steroid program. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Maybe you're referring to that Johaug supposedly did write Trofodermin on a medicine list before the test. Well, here we have to trust the press-conference. I can't recall that ADN have acknowledged this. However, you're aware that there are two different versions on the market of Trofodermin? One with the steroid Clostebol (the one that was showed in the press conference) and one with Clobetasol (http://www.tabletwise.com/trofodermin-skin-cream/composition-ingredients) which is a glucocorticoid and allowed for external use.

This more or less makes Trofodermin the perfect scape-goat, every scenario covered.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

The other details I make which are inconsistent you leave unexplained. If you try to put them all together, you get into trouble.

I'm not sure what unexplained inconsistencies you are referring to. I tried to give an alternative to the scenario you did put out. I think the whole perspective changes if you accept it might have been a cover-up story. In my opinion this inevitably involves the doctor being part of a steroid program. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Maybe you're referring to that Johaug supposedly did write Trofodermin on a medicine list before the test. Well, here we have to trust the press-conference. I can't recall that ADN have acknowledged this. However, you're aware that there are two different versions on the market of Trofodermin? One with the steroid Clostebol (the one that was showed in the press conference) and one with Clobetasol (http://www.tabletwise.com/trofodermin-skin-cream/composition-ingredients) which is a glucocorticoid and allowed for external use.

This more or less makes Trofodermin the perfect scape-goat, every scenario covered.

I think you are spot on. I can't find a reason to think that Johaug and/or the doctor didn't do something wrong. No way this guy, or anyone else on the medical staff with that much experience makes a mistake like that. They either didn't think the steroid would still be in the system, or they were simply caught red handed.

 

[dukoff]

Re: Re:

The other details I make which are inconsistent you leave unexplained. If you try to put them all together, you get into trouble.

I'm not sure what unexplained inconsistencies you are referring to. I tried to give an alternative to the scenario you did put out. I think the whole perspective changes if you accept it might have been a cover-up story. In my opinion this inevitably involves the doctor being part of a steroid program. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Maybe you're referring to that Johaug supposedly did write Trofodermin on a medicine list before the test. Well, here we have to trust the press-conference. I can't recall that ADN have acknowledged this. However, you're aware that there are two different versions on the market of Trofodermin? One with the steroid Clostebol (the one that was showed in the press conference) and one with Clobetasol (http://www.tabletwise.com/trofodermin-skin-cream/composition-ingredients) which is a glucocorticoid and allowed for external use.

This more or less makes Trofodermin the perfect scape-goat, every scenario covered.

What I meant with my post is to point out details that shouldn't exist if it was indeed a cover up.. I'll highlight them:

So..,

- You've injected clostebol, it's now end of August, and you receive a tip-off of a test to happen in 2 weeks.
- A doctor towards the end of a fantastic successful career, having served in the military for 10 years, been a doctor at the Norwegian Antarctic expedition, has executive leader-courses from Harvard, been a leader of several national and international organizations and leader of Pfizer Norway, is an expert on sport injuries, is President of the IOC world conference on Prevention of Injury and Illness in Sport, finds it not that satisfying to be of the most respected doctors in the country, and decides to be the one to sacrifice his pride, reputation and career, by taking the full blame..
- You manage to induce a lip-hsv-outbreak, or it's a lucky coincidence.
- The doctor decides to buy a clostebol cream with a doping-warning on the package as a cover story.
- You're interviewed by the press, and explicitly elaborates on how you are extremely careful and check all products three times, including tea and specifically lip creams.
- It's a while since the injection, so levels should be very low, and if lucky, you could be outside detection.
- Yet you go ahead with the plan, and eliminate all possibilities of a lucky slip-away by filing the Trofodermin cream on the test-form, so the most sensitive analysis for clostebol is guaranteed to be selected.
- You script out the stories of the athlete and doctor to be matched, and practice it vigorously, making sure to remark that Therese received the full packaging with the doping warning sign, instead of just the tube which didn't have it, and that she didn't use the words "doping list" when asking the doctor if the cream was legal, but instead asked if it "is ok?".

This is all a calculated gain/loss, and well worth it all, because..

..it may change a max 2-year(realistically) suspension into a 1-year suspension.

makes perfect sense!

There is too little to gain, for the massive loss taken by an extremely reputed doctor, but of course that can always be speculated on. Though.. You wouldn't list the cream as you know it will lead to a very specific testing. You wouldn't chose that cream in the first place. And if you did, you certainly wouldn't say she received the packaging. Then you wouldn't make the interview Therese did with such words, contradicting the defence you have planned. And the doctor wouldn't say she didn't explicitly ask him with the words "doping list", again in contradiction with the whole purpose of the plan.

These are the details you need to fit, and they only fit someone who didn't know what was happening.

If you think they fit, make up the storyline, and include them all.

 

[Tubeless]

@dukoff - you’re attempting to obfuscate our alternate theories, but can you try & explain these problems with the “official story”:

1. Why did the Dr wait 4 days before traveling to Italy to treat Johaug who was in pain and could not sleep?
2. Why did the Dr fail to bring the proper medication for a known lip condition that he has treated before?
3. Why did the Dr not go medicine shopping until the day after meeting for breakfast with Johaug?
4. How is it possible that an experienced Dr failed to see the DOPING label on the packaging?
5. Why would the Dr not double-check that the main ingredient Clostebol was not on the prohibited substance list?
6. How do you reconcile the fact that Italian doctors & pharmacists say Trofodermin should not be applied on the lips?
7. How could also Johaug miss the DOPING label as she received both the tube & packaging?
8. Why would Johaug who “always triple-checks” all ingredients not google the main ingredient listed on the tube?
9. Why was the #1 female skier in the world (and suspiciously superior to others) not tested by ADN for over 4 months?

 

[meat puppet]

@dukoff - you’re attempting to obfuscate our alternate theories, but can you try & explain these problems with the “official story”:

1. Why did the Dr wait 4 days before traveling to Italy to treat Johaug who was in pain and could not sleep?
2. Why did the Dr fail to bring the proper medication for a known lip condition that he has treated before?
3. Why did the Dr not go medicine shopping until the day after meeting for breakfast with Johaug?
4. How is it possible that an experienced Dr failed to see the DOPING label on the packaging?
5. Why would the Dr not double-check that the main ingredient Clostebol was not on the prohibited substance list?
6. How do you reconcile the fact that Italian doctors & pharmacists say Trofodermin should not be applied on the lips?
7. How could also Johaug miss the DOPING label as she received both the tube & packaging?
8. Why would Johaug who “always triple-checks” all ingredients not google the main ingredient listed on the tube?
9. Why was the #1 female skier in the world (and suspiciously superior to others) not tested by ADN for over 4 months?

Dunno if there is intentional obfuscation involved on dukoffs part, I really don't. But I agree wholly about the need to pose the questions you posed tubeless.

IMHO the fact that trofodermin has the doping label on it was not and could not have been missed by Johaug and the medical team. That would be nonsensical, because the tube wears DOPING on its sleeve. So the other possibility is that it was chosen precisely because of that feature.

The media discussion has been going on for two weeks now. More lame jokes about lipcream than serious questions about actually abusing anabolics with some definite success, see last season. In the end, framing the issue matters. Here the framing is a poor girl unfortunately selecting the wrong lip cream and ending up in trouble because the rules are, well, the rules. And the framing is not intentionally seeking performance gains from anabolics. The contract is huge, one is very sinister by tone and the other one is not really.

 

[Random Direction]

If Johaug was intentionally taking Clostebol under the supervision of the Norwegian doctor, it is highly likely that this was not the first time. It would also be highly likely that others on the team had been taking it. Timing is also likely similar - off season, pre competition and summer loading phases.

If the Norwegians want to clear things up, they could get wada to bulk retroactive test, with open public results, all samples that meet these criteria for the past years. (Now that the tests are sensitive over a much longer time horizon)

 

[Discgear]

Re: Re:

Okay, I'll address the highlighted statement directly:

The doctor decides to buy a clostebol cream with a doping-warning on the package as a cover story.
- Yet you go ahead with the plan, and eliminate all possibilities of a lucky slip-away by filing the Trofodermin cream on the test-form, so the most sensitive analysis for clostebol is guaranteed to be selected.

I think I did already adress the Trofodermin cream in my last post. First, we must trust the press-conference that Johaug did write Trofodermin on a medicine list before the test. I can't recall that ADN have acknowledged this. Secondly, are you aware that there are two different versions on the market of Trofodermin? One with the steroid Clostebol (the one that was showed in the press conference) and one with Clobetasol (http://www.tabletwise.com/trofodermin-skin-cream/composition-ingredients) which is a glucocorticoid and perfectly legal for external use.
This makes Trofodermin the perfect scape-goat, every scenario covered.

- You're interviewed by the press, and explicitly elaborates on how you are extremely careful and check all products three times, including tea and specifically lip creams.

What I recall, Johaug hadn't got the positive when she gave that interview. I think this interview and that she specifically mentions lip cream makes it even more suspicious. I don't think either she or the medic believed they were ever going to be caught, hence a very sloppy back-up plan, and one week needed after the positive to get things straightened up before the press-conference.

- You script out the stories of the athlete and doctor to be matched, and practice it vigorously, making sure to remark that Therese received the full packaging with the doping warning sign, instead of just the tube which didn't have it, and that she didn't use the words "doping list" when asking the doctor if the cream was legal, but instead asked if it "is ok?".

Well, I assume that the Norwegian team shares rooms at the camps. And that would be a big risk that one of her team-mates saw the package in the bathroom. They clarified this after the press-conference, maybe realizing it was to big a risk spinning this part further. Your questions surrounding what words Johaug used in the Press-conference, doping list or legal I don't find significant at all.

This is all a calculated gain/loss, and well worth it all, because..
..it may change a max 2-year(realistically) suspension into a 1-year suspension.

The catastrophe was already there, wasn't it? She got caught with steroids. Either confessing planned doping or either trying to make a story up with the only available medication containing the steroid that was found in her blood. With the Norwegian arrogance, Sundby's success avoiding reasonable punishment for downright doping fresh in mind, I don't find this strange it all. Not even close as strange as the official version.

 

[Wigry3]

Another news. Bjoergen wasn't tested for 7 months after she gave birth to a baby. kowalczyk was tested four times during that time. It's not a joke ;-)
How often the Swedes or the Finns are tested?

 

[dukoff]

@dukoff - you’re attempting to obfuscate our alternate theories, but can you try & explain these problems with the “official story”:

1. Why did the Dr wait 4 days before traveling to Italy to treat Johaug who was in pain and could not sleep?
2. Why did the Dr fail to bring the proper medication for a known lip condition that he has treated before?
3. Why did the Dr not go medicine shopping until the day after meeting for breakfast with Johaug?
4. How is it possible that an experienced Dr failed to see the DOPING label on the packaging?
5. Why would the Dr not double-check that the main ingredient Clostebol was not on the prohibited substance list?
6. How do you reconcile the fact that Italian doctors & pharmacists say Trofodermin should not be applied on the lips?
7. How could also Johaug miss the DOPING label as she received both the tube & packaging?
8. Why would Johaug who “always triple-checks” all ingredients not google the main ingredient listed on the tube?
9. Why was the #1 female skier in the world (and suspiciously superior to others) not tested by ADN for over 4 months?

1, 2: Answered here and here
3: unknown, he hasn't had the ability to answer the question.
4: When you got 30+ years as a doctor, you're not too curious to cuddle with your latest medicine package. If he thinks he knows what he was getting, you pocket it. This isn't unnatural. If there was no doping warning on the back you wouldn't really wonder if he looked on the back of the package. A patient would likely look, either on the package, or the leaflet, unless you get clear instructions, then many would not look. It depends on your personality, curiousness and history/relationship/trust with the doctor you communicate with.
5: You may have misread the substance as a different name. As has been suggested, he could have read "Clobetasol", which exist in creams for similar indications with Clobetasol+Neomycin, while Trofodermin has Clostebol+Neomycin. If you think you read something, you may make logical shortcuts to procedures.
6: Answered here. You can reasearch the active substances of the three creams, they are appropriate for severe hsv, and all so in the healing stage.
7: It's easy if you don't look at all 6 sides of a box. If you look at the side in question, then yes it's hard to miss.
8: She didn't say it in that context. The context of here sentence was "creams and products she gets adviced or given" (randomly, from other people, family etc). It's quite natural you handle that differently than from your doctor. Interviews of other Norwegian athletes show the same tendency: Some say they check it themselves, on top of the doctor, some says they don't check what comes from the doctor. It's obviously not smart, but the top athletes have been spoiled with an extremely professional medical support, and assistance in general.
9: This fact is actually in strong support for Johaug or anyone with equal history. The fact that an athlete is tested less according to the doping agencies strategies indicates that her historic profile and markers are clean and bears no suspicion. Athletes bragging about being tested more often than their piers are indeed saying they are targeted and balancing on a limit. Legkov says he's tested 30+ times a year? I have nothing to say on him, it may be reasoned also by the profiles of his team mates or other history, but it's not really an argument of being clean. The best would really be average testing-intervals, over time of course, as the unpredictability is an important tool too.

 

[dukoff]

Re: Re:

This makes Trofodermin the perfect scape-goat, every scenario covered.
...
I think this interview and that she specifically mentions lip cream makes it even more suspicious. I don't think either she or the medic believed they were ever going to be caught, hence a very sloppy back-up plan
....
Well, I assume that the Norwegian team shares rooms at the camps. And that would be a big risk that one of her team-mates saw the package in the bathroom. They clarified this after the press-conference, maybe realizing it was to big a risk spinning this part further.

This is all a calculated gain/loss, and well worth it all, because..
..it may change a max 2-year(realistically) suspension into a 1-year suspension.

The catastrophe was already there, wasn't it? She got caught with steroids.

It's not realistic to file the medicine. If you dope, you're indeed very aware that they test for a large range of substances, and to tell them what substance to look for is like putting a rope around your neck. The difference of specific and non-specific analysis can be substantial. The only reason you may chose to do this, is if you know your glowing hot. As we know, she was not.

Believing they wouldn't get caught is in direct contradiction with filing the medicine.

Sharing rooms? So Johaug is the only one doping, not her team mates? Ok. And she's doping, not used to being careful with her meds, and leave a box with a doping warning on the bathroom? Why would she even have it in the bathroom, was she using it to increase her levels further?

What I meant with the 2-to-1 year suspension is the overall choice, specifically of the renowned doctor, to take all this massive loss on his person, for a meagre potential gain of 1 year reduction. You know from the rules you will not get away with less than a year.

It's always possible to construct a theory. But it got to make some sense, and not introduce even more contradictions than those you try to explain.

 

[python]

the swedish ski legend believes johaug may have bought the cream herself and that the good doc, like so many in norway, may be trying to protects therese
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/langrenn/svensk-ski-legende-til-svt-faar-en-foelelse-av-at-therese-kjoepte-salven-selv/a/23829057/

if the opinion proves to be true it is, very significant for 2 reasons:
1. there would be a clear cut case that someone was a deliberate liar (perhaps to cover something).
2. it could also explain the gap in the need for a (desperately needed) medication, and the actual date we were told it was purchased. iow, therese may have bought it 4-5 days before and when the doc arrived in livigno he was under no pressure to rush to execute the prearranged story that he actually bought the cream.

 

[bambino]

Of course they selected a product with all possible signs of doping for their cover story, as that is only strenghtening their serious mistake story (which potentially reduces the ban). It is mental game as no-one (especially the norwegians here) cannot simply believe they would be intentionally be so stupid to use that product as cover story and even write it to meds list. This is exactly how I would've played the cover story after knowing I'm screwed up regardless. And it seems to be working unfortunately.

 

[Cloxxki]

Are they not just building a highly confusing case to to be able to get a reduction?
Stupidity seems to somehow be a relevant excuse when you're a world class athlete with a world reputed doctor.

How long a ban would a nobody semi-pro without doctor's supervision get? At least 2 years for stupidity, right? When does a greater level of stupidity lead to ban reduction? This doc should fall on this sword properly, end his own career. Half-assed is full-guilty.

 

[bambino]

Re:

Are they not just building a highly confusing case to to be able to get a reduction?
Stupidity seems to somehow be a relevant excuse when you're a world class athlete with a world reputed doctor.

How long a ban would a nobody semi-pro without doctor's supervision get? At least 2 years for stupidity, right? When does a greater level of stupidity lead to ban reduction? This doc should fall on this sword properly, end his own career. Half-assed is full-guilty.

As I said above, this is exactly what they are doing. They want to create a view of "how could they be intentionally so stupid, it has to be mistake".

The worldclass doctor i.e. claimed right after the news that there was no signs of doping on that product. Which only plays to the mistake card.

 

[python]

setting: early september, 2016. breakfast in a livigno hotel.

johaug: 'what if i get tested ? i may be still 'glowing', right ?'
bendiksen: 'it depends...don't worry...anyway, write in 'trofordemin' in the space were they ask what you are taking should they test you in the next 2 weeks'
johaug: 'but if they detect it, i am fcud' :redface:
bendiksen: 'i doubt they find anything...they usually don't check for clostebol right away. they look at a t/e ratio first. and if elevated, only then they test for a wider panel of steroids...based on your schedule, your t/e should fall under 4 in few days...
yohaug: 'but what if the t/e stays high when they test ?'
bendiksen: 'as i said, write in 'trofodermin'. it could mean the one w/o the clostebol. everyone knows you have chapped lips all the time. in the worst case, we can use the lip cream to reduce your ban and sell it to the public as an innocent incident. you always knew we are risking, didn't you'
johaug: 'what fcuking reduction ? i am innocent !!!!'
bendiksen: look therese, if they sniff out you were injected it is a sure 4 years. if the fallback plan works, it may be 1 year only. you are only 28. back to making a lot of money by 29 and no one (besides the swedes) will believe it was intentional.
johaug:'what about the cream i already bought?'
Bendiksen:' i will buy the same thing tomorrow and save the receipt. doubt we will ever need the cream story'

the above is a speculation ..

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Of course they selected a product with all possible signs of doping for their cover story, as that is only strenghtening their serious mistake story (which potentially reduces the ban). It is mental game as no-one (especially the norwegians here) cannot simply believe they would be intentionally be so stupid to use that product as cover story and even write it to meds list. This is exactly how I would've played the cover story after knowing I'm screwed up regardless. And it seems to be working unfortunately.

Yep, which is why I think she won't get much time. The absolute most they'll give her, is 1 year, but like i've said a few times already, chances are high it's only the current ban.

Amazingly, there is nothing on the FIS website, or on Johaug's FIS biography/status that suggests she's even provisionally suspended. Usually when one is suspended they have 'not allowed' under their FIS code. This also happens when someone just retired. The other cases when there is something written is due to an injury, but that shows up mostly in alpine or jumping.

But it's interesting that FIS head Gian-Franco Kasper says she needs to be given a severe punishment, as in, the full four year suspension. That's fairly significant from the FIS boss. Predictably, the Norwegian officials and folks like Bjoergen dismissed his words and were very critical of him. Bjoergen said it was 'political...' Wonder if she'll think the same the next time a Russian fails a test? Probably not.

 

[sida_mot]

Re:

setting: early september, 2016. breakfast in a livigno hotel.

johaug: 'what if i get tested ? i may be still 'glowing', right ?'
bendiksen: 'it depends...don't worry...anyway, write in 'trofordemin' in the space were they ask what you are taking should they test you in the next 2 weeks'
johaug: 'but if they detect it, i am fcud' :redface:
bendiksen: 'i doubt they find anything...they usually don't check for clostebol right away. they look at a t/e ratio first. and if elevated, only then they test for a wider panel of steroids...based on your schedule, your t/e should fall under 4 in few days...
yohaug: 'but what if the t/e stays high when they test ?'
bendiksen: 'as i said, write in 'trofodermin'. it could mean the one w/o the clostebol. everyone knows you have chapped lips all the time. in the worst case, we can use the lip cream to reduce your ban and sell it to the public as an innocent incident. you always knew we are risking, didn't you'
johaug: 'what fcuking reduction ? i am innocent !!!!'
bendiksen: look therese, if they sniff out you were injected it is a sure 4 years. if the fallback plan works, it may be 1 year only. you are only 28. back to making a lot of money by 29 and no one (besides the swedes) will believe it was intentional.
johaug:'what about the cream i already bought?'
Bendiksen:' i will buy the same thing tomorrow and save the receipt. doubt we will ever need the cream story'

the above is a speculation ..

Funny! It actually explains a lot if she bought the cream herself.

Wouldn't it make sense if the cream was the actual means of doping? Sure, not as effective but it would make it more of a grey area matter since it's just cream and you could buy it over the counter.

Norway loves grey areas. I saw they intended to keep using the nebulizers this season. Wada have stated what they think about the proactive extreme asthma treatment and the norwegian ski team keeps shoving it in their face: "nanana can't touch this, this is grey not black!". That may hurt Therese.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

setting: early september, 2016. breakfast in a livigno hotel.

johaug: 'what if i get tested ? i may be still 'glowing', right ?'
bendiksen: 'it depends...don't worry...anyway, write in 'trofordemin' in the space were they ask what you are taking should they test you in the next 2 weeks'
johaug: 'but if they detect it, i am fcud' :redface:
bendiksen: 'i doubt they find anything...they usually don't check for clostebol right away. they look at a t/e ratio first. and if elevated, only then they test for a wider panel of steroids...based on your schedule, your t/e should fall under 4 in few days...
yohaug: 'but what if the t/e stays high when they test ?'
bendiksen: 'as i said, write in 'trofodermin'. it could mean the one w/o the clostebol. everyone knows you have chapped lips all the time. in the worst case, we can use the lip cream to reduce your ban and sell it to the public as an innocent incident. you always knew we are risking, didn't you'
johaug: 'what fcuking reduction ? i am innocent !!!!'
bendiksen: look therese, if they sniff out you were injected it is a sure 4 years. if the fallback plan works, it may be 1 year only. you are only 28. back to making a lot of money by 29 and no one (besides the swedes) will believe it was intentional.
johaug:'what about the cream i already bought?'
Bendiksen:' i will buy the same thing tomorrow and save the receipt. doubt we will ever need the cream story'

the above is a speculation ..

Funny! It actually explains a lot if she bought the cream herself.

Wouldn't it make sense if the cream was the actual means of doping? Sure, not as effective but it would make it more of a grey area matter since it's just cream and you could buy it over the counter.

Norway loves grey areas. I saw they intended to keep using the nebulizers this season. Wada have stated what they think about the proactive extreme asthma treatment and the norwegian ski team keeps shoving it in their face: "nanana can't touch this, this is grey not black!". That may hurt Therese.

of course, the cream could have been THE golden bullet. either alone or in a combination with another short half life anabolic steroid and/or a masking agent to accelerate the steroids clearance. the limitations of such an assumption would be that johaug would need to rely long term (b/c if doped, it would certainly not be the 1st time) on a cream not available in norway. she (thru her doc) would also need to know the EXACT routine: how wide a skin area, the doze, the frequency etc. and above all, she'd have to know how the recommended cream routine affects her T/E ratio. such a knowledge is hard to come buy in the open academic studies (i could not find much) so, she'd have to risk to run some of the tests on her own body. risky. injecting the steroids, otoh, is a much better studied area...

then again, she might have indeed needed the cream for her lips, ran out and bought one b/c she new via a doc what she was buying and........that little lip dose added to the injected one earlier (the one that metered and studied) ended up too much. boom.

 

[Blaaswix]

4: When you got 30+ years as a doctor, you're not too curious to cuddle with your latest medicine package. If he thinks he knows what he was getting, you pocket it.

Trofodermin is not part of the Norwegian pharmacopeia, so none of that stands up.

 

[Blaaswix]

A year ago, Norway's national team coach commented on the use of oxygen masks, in training, by the Finnish team:

"We don't have any need for artificial apparatus, we manage with normal pulse and breathing."

Whilst all the time the nebulizers were whirring away.

And now we are asked to believe that the use of nebulizers and asthma medicines for healthy athletes has nothing to do with doping. http://www.aftenbladet.no/100Sport/...agsprofilen-ta-et-vanskelig-valg-847879_1.snd There are no plans to change practice this season.

What is the point of watching XC anymore?

 

[dukoff]

4: When you got 30+ years as a doctor, you're not too curious to cuddle with your latest medicine package. If he thinks he knows what he was getting, you pocket it.

Trofodermin is not part of the Norwegian pharmacopeia, so none of that stands up.

The active ingredients and their quantities are all listed on the front of the package. And again the quantities on all 6 sides. Hence there is no information you’re missing, prompting you to look also at the back. On the back it actually isn’t listed even the active ingredients, so if you did turn it, for no particular reason, you would not get any additional useful information. In that sense, you were actually “right”, not to look there. Except of course in this special case, the warning, which isn’t a standardized symbol or marking in Europe, not known upon request to the Norwegian Statens Legemiddelverk, hence not something you would look for to discriminate on.

This isn’t the case actually, for some of the other packaging Trofodermin has been produced in. That one does not list the substances on the front, and would hence both prompt you to turn to get this information, as well as it has the doping-warning on the tube, in this case impossible to miss.

http://imgur.com/a/a33TX

If the sign was on the front, or on the tube, I would also say it is impossible not to see it. But not looking on the rear of a packaging that is discarded as soon as you put it in your toilet bag, that can not be said to be too improbable.

It’s also an exercise of evaluating your mental bias, from everybody now knowing it has a warning and reacting to it. Were people asked, not knowing anything of this case, if you think a doctor would read or view all 6 sides of a medicine box, I’m quite certain a large part would guess no.

Personally, I don't find the missing of this doping warning peculiar at all. It has a certain probability, but it's nothing really that would force you to seek out this symbol. If you put a box on the table, you don't usually put it face down. It's actually rather stupid, to have this symbol on the back. I find it much more of a surprise that the ingredient wasn't checked.

 

[dukoff]

Not to forget, he bought not Trofodermin only, but also Keratoplastica. That's 12 sides, or 8, or 4, depending on what you feel should be counted, to check. Keratoplastica was btw his first choice, and Trofodermin she only was given after a few days, I can't recall which date. So his primary focus at the day of purchase was likely the Keratoplastica.

 

[Discgear]

Re:

setting: early september, 2016. breakfast in a livigno hotel.
johaug: 'what if i get tested ? i may be still 'glowing', right ?'
bendiksen: 'it depends...don't worry...anyway, write in 'trofordemin' in the space were they ask what you are taking should they test you in the next 2 weeks'
johaug: 'but if they detect it, i am fcud' :redface:
bendiksen: 'i doubt they find anything...they usually don't check for clostebol right away. they look at a t/e ratio first. and if elevated, only then they test for a wider panel of steroids...based on your schedule, your t/e should fall under 4 in few days...
yohaug: 'but what if the t/e stays high when they test ?'
bendiksen: 'as i said, write in 'trofodermin'. it could mean the one w/o the clostebol. everyone knows you have chapped lips all the time. in the worst case, we can use the lip cream to reduce your ban and sell it to the public as an innocent incident. you always knew we are risking, didn't you'
johaug: 'what fcuking reduction ? i am innocent !!!!'
bendiksen: look therese, if they sniff out you were injected it is a sure 4 years. if the fallback plan works, it may be 1 year only. you are only 28. back to making a lot of money by 29 and no one (besides the swedes) will believe it was intentional.
johaug:'what about the cream i already bought?'
Bendiksen:' i will buy the same thing tomorrow and save the receipt. doubt we will ever need the cream story'
the above is a speculation ..

Hilarious and spot on! So now we know you were in Livigno early September. :lol:

A year ago, Norway's national team coach commented on the use of oxygen masks, in training, by the Finnish team:
"We don't have any need for artificial apparatus, we manage with normal pulse and breathing."
Whilst all the time the nebulizers were whirring away.
And now we are asked to believe that the use of nebulizers and asthma medicines for healthy athletes has nothing to do with doping. http://www.aftenbladet.no/100Sport/...agsprofilen-ta-et-vanskelig-valg-847879_1.snd There are no plans to change practice this season.
What is the point of watching XC anymore?

It’s truly depressing. The double-standards. The lies. The smoke-screens. The grey areas. The attacks on Anti-doping and WADA. The dishonesty.

* No plans to change practice this season. So, in the sprints between the races, they will gather on the 2nd floor of the million-dollar wagon and inhale asthma medication, everyone.

* Believe it or not, today Sundby went forward and said that he continues to medicate his asthma as he always has.

* Today Løfshus, Johnsrud Sundby and Monsen attacked Finnish skier Jauhojärvi for saying following about Sundby: There is a limit. If you’re above that limit, it’s doping.

* Daily people from NSF, from media and even from the government ridicules how using a lip balm can be doping. Hence undermining WADA and the antidoping work.

* Today we also learn that both Løfshus and the other skiers have planned to find ways to train with Therese during her suspension, another violation of the WADA-code. They think if they do it during their spare time it will be okay. Poor Therese, yes they never use her family name, just Therese.

Norway is fundamentally destroying what’s left of the sport in desperately trying to save a façade long gone. It’s such a disgrace.