Doping in XC skiing

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

setting: early september, 2016. breakfast in a livigno hotel.
johaug: 'what if i get tested ? i may be still 'glowing', right ?'
bendiksen: 'it depends...don't worry...anyway, write in 'trofordemin' in the space were they ask what you are taking should they test you in the next 2 weeks'
johaug: 'but if they detect it, i am fcud' :redface:
bendiksen: 'i doubt they find anything...they usually don't check for clostebol right away. they look at a t/e ratio first. and if elevated, only then they test for a wider panel of steroids...based on your schedule, your t/e should fall under 4 in few days...
yohaug: 'but what if the t/e stays high when they test ?'
bendiksen: 'as i said, write in 'trofodermin'. it could mean the one w/o the clostebol. everyone knows you have chapped lips all the time. in the worst case, we can use the lip cream to reduce your ban and sell it to the public as an innocent incident. you always knew we are risking, didn't you'
johaug: 'what fcuking reduction ? i am innocent !!!!'
bendiksen: look therese, if they sniff out you were injected it is a sure 4 years. if the fallback plan works, it may be 1 year only. you are only 28. back to making a lot of money by 29 and no one (besides the swedes) will believe it was intentional.
johaug:'what about the cream i already bought?'
Bendiksen:' i will buy the same thing tomorrow and save the receipt. doubt we will ever need the cream story'
the above is a speculation ..

Hilarious and spot on! So now we know you were in Livigno early September. :lol:

A year ago, Norway's national team coach commented on the use of oxygen masks, in training, by the Finnish team:
"We don't have any need for artificial apparatus, we manage with normal pulse and breathing."
Whilst all the time the nebulizers were whirring away.
And now we are asked to believe that the use of nebulizers and asthma medicines for healthy athletes has nothing to do with doping. http://www.aftenbladet.no/100Sport/...agsprofilen-ta-et-vanskelig-valg-847879_1.snd There are no plans to change practice this season.
What is the point of watching XC anymore?

It’s truly depressing. The double-standards. The lies. The smoke-screens. The grey areas. The attacks on Anti-doping and WADA. The dishonesty.

* No plans to change practice this season. So, in the sprints between the races, they will gather on the 2nd floor of the million-dollar wagon and inhale asthma medication, everyone.

* Believe it or not, today Sundby went forward and said that he continues to medicate his asthma as he always has.

* Today Løfshus, Johnsrud Sundby and Monsen attacked Finnish skier Jauhojärvi for saying following about Sundby: There is a limit. If you’re above that limit, it’s doping.

* Daily people from NSF, from media and even from the government ridicules how using a lip balm can be doping. Hence undermining WADA and the antidoping work.

* Today we also learn that both Løfshus and the other skiers have planned to find ways to train with Therese during her suspension, another violation of the WADA-code. They think if they do it during their spare time it will be okay. Poor Therese, yes they never use her family name, just Therese.

Norway is fundamentally destroying what’s left of the sport in desperately trying to save a façade long gone. It’s such a disgrace.

Loefshus was hardly ever heard from when he was the sprint coach of the US Ski Team years ago. Now he's acting like the king of the world. I don't want to speculate about the US Ski Team, as I don't think there was anything particularly out of the ordinary, but once he got back to Norway, he's a man transformed!

The arrogance, the holier-than-thou attitude, the lying, the sarcastic remarks and laughter...At least the athletes aren't showing as much as the leadership, and really, it starts from the top down, as it does for any national team. If there is doping, organized or not, the 'orders' come from the top. I highly doubt an individual is going to come forward and tell the coaches and the higher ups to dope the athletes, though these days anything is possible.

And yes, the hypocrisy regarding the Finns is just...pathetic, sad, infuriating, nauseating, disrespectful, arrogant.

 

[Cloxxki]

Hpw could this cream be administered if doping was the intent, and the cream the actual product? Without getting into the nasties and funnies, could it be absorbed by the body, and how much of a real dose could be achieved? Presuming the other ingredients are all harmless filler.

 

[Tubeless]

If the sign was on the front, or on the tube, I would also say it is impossible not to see it. But not looking on the rear of a packaging that is discarded as soon as you put it in your toilet bag, that can not be said to be too improbable.

It’s also an exercise of evaluating your mental bias, from everybody now knowing it has a warning and reacting to it. Were people asked, not knowing anything of this case, if you think a doctor would read or view all 6 sides of a medicine box, I’m quite certain a large part would guess no.

Personally, I don't find the missing of this doping warning peculiar at all. It has a certain probability, but it's nothing really that would force you to seek out this symbol. If you put a box on the table, you don't usually put it face down. It's actually rather stupid, to have this symbol on the back. I find it much more of a surprise that the ingredient wasn't checked.

To illustrate your most splendid explanation, it would be fun to have the Norwegian equivalent of the Saturday Night Live show do a sketch showing the good Dr and Johaug either separately or together inspecting the Trofodermin packaging - looking at each and every side except the one that says DOPING. Not sure if the mood in Norway would be receptive to such self-deprecating humor?

This clearly is the weak point about the "lip cream" defense. From the WADA code https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/wada-2015-world-anti-doping-code.pdf:

10.2.1 The period of Ineligibility shall be four years where ... The anti-doping rule violation involves a Specified Substance and the Anti-Doping Organization can establish that the anti-doping rule violation was intentional.

10.2.2 If Article 10.2.1 does not apply, the period of Ineligibility shall be two years.

Clostebol is listed as a "Specified Substance. Johaug is facing a 4-year penalty unless she can come up with an explanation that she ended up ingesting Clostebol inadvertently.

If intentional doping can't be proven, then she can pin her hopes on this clause:

10.5.2. If an Athlete ... establishes ... that he or she bears No Significant Fault or Negligence, then ... the otherwise applicable period of Ineligibility may be reduced ... but the reduced period of Ineligibility may not be less than one-half of the period of Ineligibility otherwise applicable.

So 4 years could be reduced to 2 and further to 1 if all goes well.

If the Norwegian sanction comes back as 1 year, it will most certainly be appealed to CAS by FIS or WADA. It will be interesting to read the defense arguments in that case - this is likely the first ever doping case where the athlete's "innocent explanation" claims the prohibited substance came from a package clearly marked as DOPING !!!

So no surprise that there's an all-out effort by Johaug & NSF to have the lip cream story stick. It's the necessary "innocent explanation" that will determine a career-ending 4-year sanction vs. (possibly) 1 year vacation.

 

[Random Direction]

And almost tellingly, the attempt at public explanation and defense is structured almost perfectly to get 1 year. Unfortunately the slight issue with the labeling on the package, among other inconsistencies documented here, is clear indication that the explanation and defense are likely bogus.

 

[sida_mot]

I think Therese bought it herself. Doc knew of course but I think she got it. I don't think it was systematically to the point where she had gotten clear instructions on how to use it. I think Johaug have gotten the tip from someone that this cream really helps you and she gave in, starting to use it whenever they are training in Italy off season. She would in this scenario consider this a grey area; bought over the counter, others use it too, won't test positive, etc.

I just don't think the norwegian's would go all out injecting it. They are as against the pitch black areas as anyone else but they do love the (dark) grey ones. The weird reactions and answers together with the gigantic holes in the story clearly tells me the official one is not right either. Anyone else see the interview where another girl (Uhrenholdt Jacobsen) got the question if it could have happened to her, and her answer was along the lines of "my relation to my doctor is a very personal thing and I don't want to elaborate on that here". What does that even mean in this context?

NSF is unintentionally setting Johaug up for a long ban. The tone seems very harsh from WADA, they are annoyed. NSF are in a tough spot, got to save face towards home crowd but by claiming everything is okay they keep annoying WADA and other nations.

 

[Cloxxki]

If others are trying tomake a point by training with Johaug, what do they deserve as an acknowledgement from AD authorities? Bit too Armstrong'esque behavior for sure. Does that fly for Norwegians? Their personal judgment supercedes that of their federation, national ADA, WADA code, etc, etc. And that's being subject and committed to that very code. Signing the board every single race.

 

[LeakyBoat]

Re:

Not to forget, he bought not Trofodermin only, but also Keratoplastica. That's 12 sides, or 8, or 4, depending on what you feel should be counted, to check. Keratoplastica was btw his first choice, and Trofodermin she only was given after a few days, I can't recall which date. So his primary focus at the day of purchase was likely the Keratoplastica.

The more you add to this story the more unlikely it appears.

 

[sida_mot]

Re:

Not to forget, he bought not Trofodermin only, but also Keratoplastica. That's 12 sides, or 8, or 4, depending on what you feel should be counted, to check. Keratoplastica was btw his first choice, and Trofodermin she only was given after a few days, I can't recall which date. So his primary focus at the day of purchase was likely the Keratoplastica.

This was a joke, right?

If not: yes I expect the doctors in that position to bother to shift their wrists back and forth a few times to check the package. I also kind of assume the cream was placed with the front facing the customer.

 

[dukoff]

Re: Re:

* Today we also learn that both Løfshus and the other skiers have planned to find ways to train with Therese during her suspension, another violation of the WADA-code. They think if they do it during their spare time it will be okay. Poor Therese, yes they never use her family name, just Therese.

Bjørgen and Østberg both said they intend to train with Johaug, but they both also clearly stated "if it's within the rules with respect to ADNO". So that's totally a non-issue you managed to construct.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

Not to forget, he bought not Trofodermin only, but also Keratoplastica. That's 12 sides, or 8, or 4, depending on what you feel should be counted, to check. Keratoplastica was btw his first choice, and Trofodermin she only was given after a few days, I can't recall which date. So his primary focus at the day of purchase was likely the Keratoplastica.

This was a joke, right?

If not: yes I expect the doctors in that position to bother to shift their wrists back and forth a few times to check the package. I also kind of assume the cream was placed with the front facing the customer.

It wasn't placed because the product is not visible in the shop they claim to bought it. It has to be asked spesificly from the sales person. And when finnish skiers and norwegian media went to the same shop asking it, the sales person both times clearly told them it has prohibitive substanse and showed the doping sign. On the other hand I'm sure the dear doctor not only lost his professinalism, but also ability to see and hear when stepping into that shop.

 

[dukoff]

Re: Re:

If not: yes I expect the doctors in that position to bother to shift their wrists back and forth a few times to check the package. I also kind of assume the cream was placed with the front facing the customer.

So you expect, after flipping medicine boxes for 30+ years, not finding anything, he's still gonna keep flipping it, despite having all the information he is looking for in big letters on the front? Very realistic..

Certainly he might have, but it has a probability, and shouldn't be dramatically in any particular favor.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

If not: yes I expect the doctors in that position to bother to shift their wrists back and forth a few times to check the package. I also kind of assume the cream was placed with the front facing the customer.

So you expect, after flipping medicine boxes for 30+ years, not finding anything, he's still gonna keep flipping it, despite having all the information he is looking for in big letters on the front? Very realistic..

See my previous message. He had to ask it spesifically in that shop, so he knew what he was buying + he seems to be the only one around who didn't hear the shop clerck warning for it. But hey, he is 30 year experienced doctor at the end.

You are btw. the firts person I've ever seen that tries to prove that experience creates sloppiness. Are you working in the strategy department of NSF by any chance?

WADA and CAS will never allow less than 2 years for this, I'm sorry.

 

[dukoff]

Re: Re:

See my previous message. He had to ask it spesifically in that shop, so he knew what he was buying + he seems to be the only one around who didn't hear the shop clerck warning for it. But hey, he is 30 year experienced doctor at the end.

He didn't request it. He requested Terra-Cortril, which they didn't have, and was advised Keratoplastica and Trofodermin as substitute.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

See my previous message. He had to ask it spesifically in that shop, so he knew what he was buying + he seems to be the only one around who didn't hear the shop clerck warning for it. But hey, he is 30 year experienced doctor at the end.

He didn't request it. He requested Terra-Cortril, which they didn't have, and was advised Keratoplastica and Trofodermin as substitute.

And was not advised, like anyone else, that the latter is doping?

Do you have link where it is told that he did ask something else?

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

If not: yes I expect the doctors in that position to bother to shift their wrists back and forth a few times to check the package. I also kind of assume the cream was placed with the front facing the customer.

So you expect, after flipping medicine boxes for 30+ years, not finding anything, he's still gonna keep flipping it, despite having all the information he is looking for in big letters on the front? Very realistic..

Certainly he might have, but it has a probability, and shouldn't be dramatically in any particular favor.

He said himself btw. that he did read the box, just not the leaflet inside.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2016/10/13/johaug-crushed-by-new-violation/

 

[dukoff]

Re: Re:

See my previous message. He had to ask it spesifically in that shop, so he knew what he was buying + he seems to be the only one around who didn't hear the shop clerck warning for it. But hey, he is 30 year experienced doctor at the end.

He didn't request it. He requested Terra-Cortril, which they didn't have, and was advised Keratoplastica and Trofodermin as substitute.

And was not advised, like anyone else, that the latter is doping?

Do you have link where it is told that he did ask something else?

Obviously that's warnings they've given after the case blew up and them receiving hundreds of media requests, and visitors buying this out of curiosity.. There's nothing dramatic in medications having steroids, unless you're an athlete, so nothing you generally warn about.

He told how this happened at the press conference. He explained them the symptoms, sunburned libs, big scabs, broken lips, open wound/bleeding, and that was the two they suggested. Then that Neomycin was what she needed in that situation. He further says what he later found, that we don't have Clostebol medications either in Norway or USA, and that Trofodermin is found in Brazil, Italy and possibly a couple of other countries.

 

[dukoff]

Re: Re:

If not: yes I expect the doctors in that position to bother to shift their wrists back and forth a few times to check the package. I also kind of assume the cream was placed with the front facing the customer.

So you expect, after flipping medicine boxes for 30+ years, not finding anything, he's still gonna keep flipping it, despite having all the information he is looking for in big letters on the front? Very realistic..

Certainly he might have, but it has a probability, and shouldn't be dramatically in any particular favor.

He said himself btw. that he did read the box, just not the leaflet inside.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2016/10/13/johaug-crushed-by-new-violation/

Of course he read the box. But all the information is already on the front of the box, the active substances, and their concentration.

 

[python]

i really can not believe that there are people justifying a professional medic's negligence - or more accurately the due diligence - when caring for their patience health...

so it was terra-cortril that dr. bendiksen was looing for ? ok. if so, i am assuming that's what therese would be using in norway as her regular remedy. ok. it was not available in the place he bought the other 2 creams. ok.

so, it took me 2 seconds to find other 3 pharmacies in livigno and about 20 pharmacies in the immediate vicinity towns (1/2h drive). all with their addresses and phone nos. to assume that none of them would have a cream the good doc was looking for would be beyond stupid.

then again, the doc may hate smart phones with internet;
or the internet, you know, does not always work in the mountains;
or, we should know, not everyone speaks norwegian in italy;
or, c'mon, show some respect for an old man in need of some rest after overflying europe...

etc etc. anything to pile gross negligence on sloppiness and multiply by stupidity to get the little therese off the hook.

i am growing now in the opinion that she should get an absolute max to cool some norwegian arrogance.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

If not: yes I expect the doctors in that position to bother to shift their wrists back and forth a few times to check the package. I also kind of assume the cream was placed with the front facing the customer.

So you expect, after flipping medicine boxes for 30+ years, not finding anything, he's still gonna keep flipping it, despite having all the information he is looking for in big letters on the front? Very realistic..

Certainly he might have, but it has a probability, and shouldn't be dramatically in any particular favor.

He said himself btw. that he did read the box, just not the leaflet inside.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2016/10/13/johaug-crushed-by-new-violation/

Of course he read the box. But all the information is already on the front of the box, the active substances, and their concentration.

He did firmly say to media that there was no doping sign in the box. How can he say that if didn't read the whole box?

 

[sida-mot]

Re: Re:

If not: yes I expect the doctors in that position to bother to shift their wrists back and forth a few times to check the package. I also kind of assume the cream was placed with the front facing the customer.

So you expect, after flipping medicine boxes for 30+ years, not finding anything, he's still gonna keep flipping it, despite having all the information he is looking for in big letters on the front? Very realistic..

Certainly he might have, but it has a probability, and shouldn't be dramatically in any particular favor.

Are you suggesting he had handled this medicine box for 30 years or are you implying that he would have a mindset of "every medicine is the same, I have seen them all already"?

Combining your two statements can now be summarized to "He might not had seen the front since the packs have sides and he wouldn't wanna turn to look since all the info was on the front."

To me it's very doubtful he ever saw the box but if you are hell bent on believing the official version then a prize tag over the doping mark is way more likely.

You're welcome! That's way more plausible than the 12-sides-argument.

 

[bambino]

Re:

i really can not believe that there are people justifying a professional medic's negligence - or more accurately the due diligence - when caring for their patience health...

so it was terra-cortril that dr. bendiksen was looing for ? ok. if so, i am assuming that's what therese would be using in norway as her regular remedy. ok. it was not available in the place he bought the other 2 creams. ok.

so, it took me 2 seconds to find other 3 pharmacies in livigno and about 20 pharmacies in the immediate vicinity towns (1/2h drive). all with their addresses and phone nos. to assume that none of them would have a cream the good doc was looking for would be beyond stupid.

then again, the doc may hate smart phones with internet;
or the internet, you know, does not always work in the mountains;
or, we should know, not everyone speaks norwegian in italy;
or, c'mon, show some respect for an old man in need of some rest after overflying europe...

etc etc. anything to pile gross negligence on sloppiness and multiply by stupidity to get the little therese off the hook.

i am growing now in the opinion that she should get an absolute max to cool some norwegian arrogance.

I could've not said it even close better. All the arrogant explanations are slowly giving me a picture of handless monkey that has 30 years of medical experience.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

i really can not believe that there are people justifying a professional medic's negligence - or more accurately the due diligence - when caring for their patience health...

so it was terra-cortril that dr. bendiksen was looing for ? ok. if so, i am assuming that's what therese would be using in norway as her regular remedy. ok. it was not available in the place he bought the other 2 creams. ok.

so, it took me 2 seconds to find other 3 pharmacies in livigno and about 20 pharmacies in the immediate vicinity towns (1/2h drive). all with their addresses and phone nos. to assume that none of them would have a cream the good doc was looking for would be beyond stupid.

then again, the doc may hate smart phones with internet;
or the internet, you know, does not always work in the mountains;
or, we should know, not everyone speaks norwegian in italy;
or, c'mon, show some respect for an old man in need of some rest after overflying europe...

etc etc. anything to pile gross negligence on sloppiness and multiply by stupidity to get the little therese off the hook.

i am growing now in the opinion that she should get an absolute max to cool some norwegian arrogance.

This. I have nothing personal against Johaug, and it sucks to see people doping, nobody wants to see that because we always hope for clean sport and those that we cheer for-we want to see them competing clean, but like you said, it's the Norwegian ARROGANCE that needs a major shake up. People are tired of that. The Finns are tired of it, the Swedes are tired of it, the Italians have had their say, the Russians usually don't say too much (probably has to do with their own history, but generally they are sporting in this regard) but even they are not convinced...Listen, the Norwegians have for years, decades built this cocoon, this bubble that now is bursting and I am hoping with Johaug's suspension and perhaps more investigations and people speaking out, it will burst completely and the NSF finally says something honest. We've heard every excuse imaginable: first it was 'oh it's our culture, we don't dope,' then it was 'well we train harder and smarter than anyone else,' 'oh it's our food, we are healthy people,' then it was 'we have the best skis, grinds, wax and wax technicians,' then it was 'all national team athletes have good camaraderie and are able to push themselves and each other to the limit at practice,' then it was 'we don't use asthma as PED's...there is simply no proof of performance enhancement in healthy athletes...' Now they are laughing it all off, as Loefshus has with the Sundby case. Bendiksen was at fault, Johaug and he didn't have a clue that it was a steroid and that it said 'doping.' Of course then Bendiksen takes the fall and Johaug would never dope, because she is such a sweet young woman! She doesn't win by minutes because of lip balm, she wins because she is sweet, nice, cute and trains harder than anyone else! Oh and she's got the best gloves too!

 

[dukoff]

Re:

i really can not believe that there are people justifying a professional medic's negligence - or more accurately the due diligence - when caring for their patience health...
.....
i am growing now in the opinion that she should get an absolute max to cool some norwegian arrogance.

I'm in no way justifying any negligence. My argumentation goes solely on the purpose of analysing what is human natural and/or possible behaviour. That is to understand the most central question, if their testimonies are true or lies.

Trying to mix opinions on behaviour at the same time you're analysing if the behaviour is factual only calls for subjective rants or glorification. Both being simply waste of space.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

i really can not believe that there are people justifying a professional medic's negligence - or more accurately the due diligence - when caring for their patience health...
.....
i am growing now in the opinion that she should get an absolute max to cool some norwegian arrogance.

I'm in no way justifying any negligence. My argumentation goes solely on the purpose of analysing what is human natural and/or possible behaviour. That is to understand the most central question, if their testimonies are true or lies.

Trying to mix opinions on behaviour at the same time you're analysing if the behaviour is factual only calls for subjective rants or glorification. Both being simply waste of space.

So what you are more or less saying is that in case there is even slight (let's say 5%) possibility i.e. that he did not look the box properly, then everyone needs to believe the story and Therese should not be convicted?

Can we have your own opinion? Do you think the doctor was as stupid as your possible behaviour suggests, or do you think they are lying?

 

[dukoff]

Re: Re:

If not: yes I expect the doctors in that position to bother to shift their wrists back and forth a few times to check the package. I also kind of assume the cream was placed with the front facing the customer.

So you expect, after flipping medicine boxes for 30+ years, not finding anything, he's still gonna keep flipping it, despite having all the information he is looking for in big letters on the front? Very realistic..

Certainly he might have, but it has a probability, and shouldn't be dramatically in any particular favor.

He said himself btw. that he did read the box, just not the leaflet inside.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2016/10/13/johaug-crushed-by-new-violation/

Of course he read the box. But all the information is already on the front of the box, the active substances, and their concentration.

He did firmly say to media that there was no doping sign in the box. How can he say that if didn't read the whole box?

No, he did not. He was shown the picture of the package with doping sign on a reporter's mobile phone at the end of the press conference, and asked if he didn't see that sign. He looked at it for some seconds, zoomed in on the phone, then answered he could not remember having seen such a sign. Then somebody else answered, it must first be established if this was the same type of box.