Doping in XC skiing

[Aragon]

The point is simply that such has the system been for at least two-and-a-half decades. Expert on doping become (naturally) anti-doping experts and (equally naturally) advisors to athletes and Federations, and the like. Jim Stray-Gundersen is another such name (from the late 1990s and early 2000s in Norway. And Ola Rønsen (for 2-3 decades and still going strong). Everything might be fine, but the system is set up in a way - at all levels - that doping is incredibly easy to get away with.

This is Off-Topic, but I'd be interested if you could clarify how James Stray-Gundersen has been an "expert on doping" before becoming an anti-doping advocate. By going through his publications from PubMed, I can find only a few research papers relating to PED-products by him at all(100% Oxygen, rEPO).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=stray-gundersen+%5Bauthor%5D

As far as I know, he has focused heavily on this LiveHigh-TrainLow - method of hypoxic exercise and as an interesting anecdote, he lobbied heavily with Finn Tapio Videman and Inggard Lereim for the introduction of blood doping tests into XC-skiing from mid 1980s onward and supervised the first test at the 1989 World Championships.

 

[Discgear]

It is surely a huge potential problem that some people consistently occupy places at both sides of the table. Nobody does that more consistently than Inggard Lereim. He was the doc responsible for Lillehammer 1994 (he claimed no abnormality with any blood values for medalists in XC). He also had responsibility for Albertville 1992 - as well as most other things run by FIS and the like in the 1990s. He has also had a relatively consistent role as a medical adviser (both formally and informally) for the Norwegian Skiing Federation (NSF). Between 2007 and February 2015, moreover, he was a board member at ADN, before he got a position for some ethics & anti-doping advisary institution. He currently leads the NSF's investigation into the Therese Johaug case.

Interesting post. I find especially this section crucial. This is one of the most troubling things for us who didn't believe in Norse supremacy during the peak EPO era. Same people still in charge. Sometimes you wonder if they hold on just to let no one else look into the dirty laundry. It is such a joke that Lereim is the one looking into Johaug case instead of someone with experience in criminal investigations.

 

[python]

http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/johaug-tatt-i-doping/avviser-turbo-behandling-av-johaug-saken/a/23843313/

johaug declined the option of going directly to CAS and chose to adjudicate the case through the norewgian system. one needs not wonder why

 

[spalco]

Does she seriously think she will be acquitted?

It's difficult for me to understand why it wouldn't be better to just say something like "I *** up, it wasn't intentional, but a mistake happened and I'm sorry, I accept my two years" instead of keeping this thing in the media for who knows how long.

It's not even like there's that big of a stigma with being a doper anymore assuming she keeps winning again after her come-back.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

Does she seriously think she will be acquitted?

It's difficult for me to understand why it wouldn't be better to just say something like "I **** up, it wasn't intentional, but a mistake happened and I'm sorry, I accept my two years" instead of keeping this thing in the media for who knows how long.

It's not even like there's that big of a stigma with being a doper anymore assuming she keeps winning again after her come-back.

Karolis Zlatkauskas is the gold standard for doping speeches. I think his statement ran something to the effect of saying that yes, he did it, he wanted to go to the Olympics and was struggling to qualify so he cheated, got caught, don't bother wasting money on testing the B sample...

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Does she seriously think she will be acquitted?

It's difficult for me to understand why it wouldn't be better to just say something like "I **** up, it wasn't intentional, but a mistake happened and I'm sorry, I accept my two years" instead of keeping this thing in the media for who knows how long.

It's not even like there's that big of a stigma with being a doper anymore assuming she keeps winning again after her come-back.

If she is acquitted then there is no point of having anti-doping. Yes, there needs to be 'due process,' but the Norwegians have shown they don't care about that and they feel like they and only they need to be above the system.

 

[antonshipulin]

Have there been any comments by or about the Norwegian biathlon team re: the overuse of asthma medications? Or is it a case of 'different federation, different policies'?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Have there been any comments by or about the Norwegian biathlon team re: the overuse of asthma medications? Or is it a case of 'different federation, different policies'?

It is a different federation, but I think they too, are aided by the Olympiatoppen. Another very interesting thing, to me at least, is the fact that a number of XC coaches have been hired by the biathlon federation since Sochi. Morten Djupvik, Egil Kristiansen, and Steinar Mundal.

 

[Blaaswix]

http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/forel...r-finner-ingen-feil-i-norsk-langrenn/65280875

Whitewash underway? 'ongoing asthma report - foreign experts find no failings in norwegian langrenn'. -

 

[Robert5091]

"Der ble det jo ofte for få svensker å konkurrere med."
Getting bored at winning all the time?!
http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/therese-kunde-inte-saga-vad-som-hant/
Johaugs manager Jörn Ernst says that this season can be over already for Johaug even if she's not banned. Sponsors are the big worry - they're waiting until the judgement comes down on the length of suspension.

 

[kosmonaut]

Re:

http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/forel...r-finner-ingen-feil-i-norsk-langrenn/65280875

Whitewash underway? 'ongoing asthma report - foreign experts find no failings in norwegian langrenn'. -

If there's one writer you shouldn't trust from Norway, it's Esten. He will fight tooth and nail to defend the federation.

 

[Blaaswix]

Re: Re:

http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/forel...r-finner-ingen-feil-i-norsk-langrenn/65280875

Whitewash underway? 'ongoing asthma report - foreign experts find no failings in norwegian langrenn'. -

If there's one writer you shouldn't trust from Norway, it's Esten. He will fight tooth and nail to defend the federation.

Unfortunately, NRK have the same story, from a press conference ahead of the season opening in Beitostølen. https://www.nrk.no/sport/fortsetter-med-bruk-av-forstoverapparat-1.13231019 No change in policy.

Gentlemen, start your nebulizers.

 

[Cloxxki]

Are there countries (on the XC calendar) where administring salbutamol via nebulizers to healthy humans is illegal? At least without recipe?

If other teams just concede in the NO position, they look pretty bad themselves. What are they hiding then which the NO camp might out?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Are there countries (on the XC calendar) where administring salbutamol via nebulizers to healthy humans is illegal? At least without recipe?

If other teams just concede in the NO position, they look pretty bad themselves. What are they hiding then which the NO camp might out?

Interesting question. Personally I have no idea, but to the second point, Alex Harvey was recently interviewed by Fasterskier, and I found some remarkable hypocrisy in him (or is it simply omertà?). One of the things he wanted to see changed in the sport is 'doping.' And yet, in that article, one of the photos used was where he took a 'selfie' with Sundby and Roethe, among others. Sundby we know failed a couple tests two years ago and he obviously should have been suspended, but the Norwegian hegemony is strong in FIS and WADA. Roethe is one of the seemingly many Norwegians that doesn't even have asthma and takes asthma medication. So who is Harvey, in this case, trying to fool? He is so anti-doping that he trains with known dopers and takes selfies with them? To me that's pretty hypocritical.

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-dopninglandet-norges-realityshow-ar-en-pr-massig-succe/
Är Norge ett dopningsland? Absolut. (Is Norway a doping country? Absolutely)

Skidsporten har gått från norsk lusekofta till norsk realityshow och PR-mässigt är förvandlingen en succé. Skiing has gone from Norwegian sweaters to reality show and the transformation is a PR success)

Däremot är jag helt säker på att det inte påverkar folks intresse för att åka skidor ett dyft. Det har inte blivit direkt färre som satsar tid och pengar på att cykla trots den sportens alla skandaler. (I'm certain that its does n't effects people's interest for skiing. There has n't been exactly fewer that have spent time and money on cycling despite all their scandals.)

Det är freakshow. Som nästan all elitidrott.(It's a freak show. Like nearly all elite sports)

 

[abcdaniel]

Re: Re:

...within the article i incorrectly linked to, was this,
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/therese-johaug/skyldte-paa-bikini-linjen-utestengt-to-aar-for-johaug-dopet/a/23822306/

Read the article, and in the bottom there is a video clip of an ADNO press conference, I guess the same day/in conjunction with Therese's non existing tears. ADNO is really spinning the positive doping test to make it fit the cream story. No anti-doping agency should present speculation on how the substance has entered tha athlete's body, before an investigation, and certainly not spinning the positive to fit the athlete´s story. This is minblowing. They are some dirty gnomes in the Norwegian ski complex. No mention of real, hard substance level in the sample, but spin galore. Highlights:

Clostebol is a weak anabolic steroid.

In a cream, the substance goes straight through intact skin, and of course a sore, into the body, and is expelled through the urine.

Because it is a substance alien to the body, as long as such a substance is found, it constitutes a doping case.

The level of the substance in the sample is low, consistent with the usage of a cream, and there is no indication that this in any way would have performance-enhancing effects.

Quoting myself here… but gladly, someone more prominent has picked up on this. Morten Justad Johnsen, a Norwegian defense lawyer, with several years of experience in sports law, including defending the meldonium positive weight lifter Ruth Kasirye earlier in the year, is quoted in VG regarding the ADNO press conference. http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/johaug-tatt-i-doping/reagerer-paa-antidoping-norges-johaug-utspill-hoeyst-unormalt/a/23844744/

It is essentially the same remarks as in the post quoted above, but with the following highlight:
- As a defense lawyer in doping cases, I would love for ADNO to say these things before the case will be put before the legal committee (påtalenämnda). I consider this to be highly unconventional, he states.

– Som forsvarer i dopingsaker skulle jeg gjerne hatt Antidoping Norge til å si dette før påtalenemnda tok i saken. Det syntes jeg var høyst unormalt, sier han.

 

[Discgear]

Re:

http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-dopninglandet-norges-realityshow-ar-en-pr-massig-succe/
Är Norge ett dopningsland? Absolut. (Is Norway a doping country? Absolutely)

Skidsporten har gått från norsk lusekofta till norsk realityshow och PR-mässigt är förvandlingen en succé. Skiing has gone from Norwegian sweaters to reality show and the transformation is a PR success)

Däremot är jag helt säker på att det inte påverkar folks intresse för att åka skidor ett dyft. Det har inte blivit direkt färre som satsar tid och pengar på att cykla trots den sportens alla skandaler. (I'm certain that its does n't effects people's interest for skiing. There has n't been exactly fewer that have spent time and money on cycling despite all their scandals.)

Det är freakshow. Som nästan all elitidrott.(It's a freak show. Like nearly all elite sports)

That's one heck of an article. Brilliant, spot on, fierceless, unsentimental and merciless. Norway, bow down. Btw, where is Torebear and Dukoff?

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.dn.se/sport/vanligt-med-astma-i-svenska-landslaget/
Swedes have asthma too! (surprise )
Have you asthma?
Yes

Johan Olsson (suposedly had asthma since birth)

Marcus Hellner

Ida Ingemarsdotter

Calle Halfvarsson (27 year old - diagnosed just a month ago!)

Teodor Pettersson

Hanna Falk

Anna Haag

No

Charlotte Kalla

Stina Nilsson
(No one has heard of a nebulizer though ... )

 

[Blaaswix]

Re:

http://www.dn.se/sport/vanligt-med-astma-i-svenska-landslaget/
Swedes have asthma too! (surprise )
Have you asthma?
Yes

Johan Olsson (suposedly had asthma since birth)

Marcus Hellner

Ida Ingemarsdotter

Calle Halfvarsson (27 year old - diagnosed just a month ago!)

Teodor Pettersson

Hanna Falk

Anna Haag

No

Charlotte Kalla

Stina Nilsson
(No one has heard of a nebulizer though ... )

Nobody outside of an emergency room or the Norwegian waxing bus had heard of one either until recently.

Norway is apparently not changing its policy on the use of nebulizers, so if no other agency will stop it then other countries are faced with a choice:

1. Match the Norwegians gasp for gasp on the nebulizer.
2. Race clean but not be able to compete.
3. Boycott races in the hope that a cleaner sporting ethic is imposed from above.

Or just wait for the interest in watching medicated athletes double-poling on fake snow finally dwindles away to a level that's not worth sponsoring or televising and start again.

Oh and Johaug's image will remain on the waxing behemoth, because why not? :idea:

 

[python]

Re: Re:

http://www.dn.se/sport/vanligt-med-astma-i-svenska-landslaget/
Swedes have asthma too! (surprise )
Have you asthma?
Yes

Johan Olsson (suposedly had asthma since birth)

Marcus Hellner

Ida Ingemarsdotter

Calle Halfvarsson (27 year old - diagnosed just a month ago!)

Teodor Pettersson

Hanna Falk

Anna Haag

No

Charlotte Kalla

Stina Nilsson
(No one has heard of a nebulizer though ... )

Nobody outside of an emergency room or the Norwegian waxing bus had heard of one either until recently.

Norway is apparently not changing its policy on the use of nebulizers, so if no other agency will stop it then other countries are faced with a choice:

1. Match the Norwegians gasp for gasp on the nebulizer.
2. Race clean but not be able to compete.
3. Boycott races in the hope that a cleaner sporting ethic is imposed from above.

Or just wait for the interest in watching medicated athletes double-poling on fake snow finally dwindles away to a level that's not worth sponsoring or televising and start again.

Oh and Johaug's image will remain on the waxing behemoth, because why not? :idea:

there is another option - i pointed to it several times before - the wada must streamline its rather permissive/dose generous (plus somewhat contradictory) rules on the anti-athma meds.

they need to go back to the pre-2009 wada rules. ever since, they de facto allowed the abuse by relaxing the rules. i dont want to repeat myself, but wada allows the healthy athletes to snort sulbatomol as long as its under 1600 a day or the use of nebulizers (just get a TUE...) or use them all you want as long as it's a saline solution or such.

most nations dont feel like pushing the grey area out of the respect for the norms of ethics, but one nation could care less and pushed anything to the red-hot line - as long as they feel they can get away with it. and they did for decades !!!!!

that's why therese has to suffer. exactly b/c sundby got away with the all-powerful state of normay behind the questionable ethics... how to overcome it ?

well, if the euro nations such as the swedes, finns, germans, french etc had been more willing to work with the russians, the sports 2nd most powerful nation both in terms of # of participants and $$, the fis and the wada would listen to a unified front. but as we know, it is not happening.

 

[Blaaswix]

Python, rolling back the asthma med rules to get some semblance of a clean sport is exactly what's needed. What would it take to ban nebulizers? Or, as you say, roll the rules back to where they were pre 2009.

 

[Discgear]

Former director of the The Swedish Olympic Committee, Stefan Lindeberg spoke out on twitter yesterday: https://twitter.com/lindebergstefan

Tränarseminar i Finland 83: "Testosteron sjunker efter träning så ok ta anabola för att återställa normalnivån"...trodde det var svunnen tid

Translation: Ahtletic seminar in Finland 1983: "Testosteron level is lower after training so it's okay to take steroids to regain normal levels....I thought it was history

Träffade norsk ledare ..."ni kommer göra som oss...vi är bara först...medicinering ger bättre prestationer"...vad var det nu doping betydde

Translation: I met a Norwegian coach...."you will do like us... we're only first... medication enhances performance"...so, what does doping mean

 

[sida_mot]

Re: Re:

http://www.dn.se/sport/vanligt-med-astma-i-svenska-landslaget/
Swedes have asthma too! (surprise )
Have you asthma?
Yes

Johan Olsson (suposedly had asthma since birth)

Marcus Hellner

Ida Ingemarsdotter

Calle Halfvarsson (27 year old - diagnosed just a month ago!)

Teodor Pettersson

Hanna Falk

Anna Haag

No

Charlotte Kalla

Stina Nilsson
(No one has heard of a nebulizer though ... )

Nobody outside of an emergency room or the Norwegian waxing bus had heard of one either until recently.

Norway is apparently not changing its policy on the use of nebulizers, so if no other agency will stop it then other countries are faced with a choice:

1. Match the Norwegians gasp for gasp on the nebulizer.
2. Race clean but not be able to compete.
3. Boycott races in the hope that a cleaner sporting ethic is imposed from above.

Or just wait for the interest in watching medicated athletes double-poling on fake snow finally dwindles away to a level that's not worth sponsoring or televising and start again.

Oh and Johaug's image will remain on the waxing behemoth, because why not? :idea:

there is another option - i pointed to it several times before - the wada must streamline its rather permissive/dose generous (plus somewhat contradictory) rules on the anti-athma meds.

they need to go back to the pre-2009 wada rules. ever since, they de facto allowed the abuse by relaxing the rules. i dont want to repeat myself, but wada allows the healthy athletes to snort sulbatomol as long as its under 1600 a day or the use of nebulizers (just get a TUE...) or use them all you want as long as it's a saline solution or such.

most nations dont feel like pushing the grey area out of the respect for the norms of ethics, but one nation could care less and pushed anything to the red-hot line - as long as they feel they can get away with it. and they did for decades !!!!!

that's why therese has to suffer. exactly b/c sundby got away with the all-powerful state of normay behind the questionable ethics... how to overcome it ?

well, if the euro nations such as the swedes, finns, germans, french etc had been more willing to work with the russians, the sports 2nd most powerful nation both in terms of # of participants and $$, the fis and the wada would listen to a unified front. but as we know, it is not happening.

Yes, it very peculiar how many of the very top skiers that do have asthma. I recall this being debated in the early nineties in Sweden as well. It would be interesting to know how many olympics and worlds that have been won without Salbumetol in the last 20 years. To me it's clear that anti-asthma meds have additional perks.

 

[Discgear]

Re: Re:

Yes, it very peculiar how many of the very top skiers that do have asthma. I recall this being debated in the early nineties in Sweden as well. It would be interesting to know how many olympics and worlds that have been won without Salbumetol in the last 20 years. To me it's clear that anti-asthma meds have additional perks.

A total ban for all asthma medication with doubtful substances is unfortunately the only way out of this mess. No TUEs. Zero tolerance in the tests. Athletes that cannot cope with it due to real asthma, have to quit elite sports.

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.dn.se/sport/falk-och-halfvarsson-vann-i-bruksvallarna/
Calle Halfvarsson's astma medicine must have done wonders as he won on Sunday ...
http://data.fis-ski.com/dynamic/results.html?sector=CC&raceid=28306
"On Sunday, Calle Halfvarsson beat out his Swedish teammates in the men’s classic sprint, winning the final ahead of Teodor Peterson in second and Oskar Svensson in third. Halvarsson also won the qualifier to start the day with 125 men competing."