Doping in XC skiing

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Re: Re:

BullsFan22 said:
Cloxxki said:
Norway is getting all the respect and understanding from authorities they could dream up, but still key players are opting to go full genius? I think the phrase is called for here?
At Biathlon worlds they were not great. Let's seehow they're going to suffer from "the press". I suspect Bjoergen will nog be affected somehow. Other skiers are like Asterix when a brawl with the Romans is scheduled before supper, she's like Obelix.

Love the Asterix and Obelix reference. It's exactly what this is. It seems like Bjoergen fell into a big of medication years ago and she is still reaping the benefits. Actually she is still probably jumping into the cauldron and is beating all those pesky Romans (Swedes, Finns, Russians, Americans, Germans....everyone pretty much).
Can't you just see the chief Norwegian doc slapping her on the hand?
"Not for you young lady, you've had enough!".
 
Re: Re:

Cloxxki said:
BullsFan22 said:
Cloxxki said:
Norway is getting all the respect and understanding from authorities they could dream up, but still key players are opting to go full genius? I think the phrase is called for here?
At Biathlon worlds they were not great. Let's seehow they're going to suffer from "the press". I suspect Bjoergen will nog be affected somehow. Other skiers are like Asterix when a brawl with the Romans is scheduled before supper, she's like Obelix.

Love the Asterix and Obelix reference. It's exactly what this is. It seems like Bjoergen fell into a big of medication years ago and she is still reaping the benefits. Actually she is still probably jumping into the cauldron and is beating all those pesky Romans (Swedes, Finns, Russians, Americans, Germans....everyone pretty much).
Can't you just see the chief Norwegian doc slapping her on the hand?
"Not for you young lady, you've had enough!".
Panoramix as Bendiksen? Brilliant! Too bad Bendiksen is bald and has no facial hair, otherwise it'd be perfect.
 
Seems my questions about the communication between the asthma commission and the Swedes has been explained further:
http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/den-svenske-ol-sjefen-beskyldte-astmautvalget-for-logn-na-svarer-de-med-hans-egne-eposter/67315888

To make a long story short, the Swedish Olympic committee did in fact refuse to share the information because they were concerned that others might take it out of context. With so many people trying to interpret things in the most negative way, I can't say I blame them for being paranoid. On the other hand, best medical practices are supposed to be open and shared freely. But their counterattacks against the commission seem unnecessary and strange if not downright petty and childish.

They have seemed very defensive in this case without me quite seeing why. :confused:
 
Regarding the suspension of the Russians I think it's important to remember that there might be additional information that is not public in these cases.

If there is not any more than what is public, and they are being suspended for their samples having been replaced/sabotaged I find that ridiculous and unfair since they have clear indications of it having been done after they delivered their samples.

Of course with all the screaming about doping in the media and by some of the athletes, FIS is caught between a rock and a hard place. No matter what they do, they will look bad.
 
Re:

ToreBear said:
Regarding the suspension of the Russians I think it's important to remember that there might be additional information that is not public in these cases.

If there is not any more than what is public, and they are being suspended for their samples having been replaced/sabotaged I find that ridiculous and unfair since they have clear indications of it having been done after they delivered their samples.

Of course with all the screaming about doping in the media and by some of the athletes, FIS is caught between a rock and a hard place. No matter what they do, they will look bad.
Nah, it's just politics, nothing new really, their nationality was the reason for the suspension.
 
Re: Re:

markene2 said:
ToreBear said:
Regarding the suspension of the Russians I think it's important to remember that there might be additional information that is not public in these cases.

If there is not any more than what is public, and they are being suspended for their samples having been replaced/sabotaged I find that ridiculous and unfair since they have clear indications of it having been done after they delivered their samples.

Of course with all the screaming about doping in the media and by some of the athletes, FIS is caught between a rock and a hard place. No matter what they do, they will look bad.
Nah, it's just politics, nothing new really, their nationality was the reason for the suspension.
Everything can be called politics, since politics are about making decisions that affect many people.
 
Re:

ToreBear said:
Seems my questions about the communication between the asthma commission and the Swedes has been explained further:
http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/den-svenske-ol-sjefen-beskyldte-astmautvalget-for-logn-na-svarer-de-med-hans-egne-eposter/67315888

To make a long story short, the Swedish Olympic committee did in fact refuse to share the information because they were concerned that others might take it out of context. With so many people trying to interpret things in the most negative way, I can't say I blame them for being paranoid. On the other hand, best medical practices are supposed to be open and shared freely. But their counterattacks against the commission seem unnecessary and strange if not downright petty and childish.

They have seemed very defensive in this case without me quite seeing why. :confused:
That is a pretty selective read, even by your standards ToreBear. In the same article we do have the two following statements by the head of the SOC:

- That our medics give verbal feedback, attend meetings in Oslo, that SOC (Swedish Olympic Committee) is welcoming the Norwegian Ski Federation and the Norwegian Olympic committee in Stockholm and that we are ready to present a public document, is hardly to say no, or being secretive. However, we are careful in how we deliver our documentation and how it’s used, to prevent it’s not being taken out of context.

- And please write that SOC finds several conclusions in the report totally baroque in comparison with SOCs own view on medicine, sports and ethics. In addition, the report looks very much like a partisan work, ordered by the Norwegian Ski Federation.
 
Re: Re:

Discgear said:
ToreBear said:
Seems my questions about the communication between the asthma commission and the Swedes has been explained further:
http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/den-svenske-ol-sjefen-beskyldte-astmautvalget-for-logn-na-svarer-de-med-hans-egne-eposter/67315888

To make a long story short, the Swedish Olympic committee did in fact refuse to share the information because they were concerned that others might take it out of context. With so many people trying to interpret things in the most negative way, I can't say I blame them for being paranoid. On the other hand, best medical practices are supposed to be open and shared freely. But their counterattacks against the commission seem unnecessary and strange if not downright petty and childish.

They have seemed very defensive in this case without me quite seeing why. :confused:
That is a pretty selective read, even by your standards ToreBear. In the same article we do have the two following statements by the head of the SOC:

- That our medics give verbal feedback, attend meetings in Oslo, that SOC (Swedish Olympic Committee) is welcoming the Norwegian Ski Federation and the Norwegian Olympic committee in Stockholm and that we are ready to present a public document, is hardly to say no, or being secretive. However, we are careful in how we deliver our documentation and how it’s used, to prevent it’s not being taken out of context.

- And please write that SOC finds several conclusions in the report totally baroque in comparison with SOCs own view on medicine, sports and ethics. In addition, the report looks very much like a partisan work, ordered by the Norwegian Ski Federation.
I thought I covered it well. SOC being paranoid. check.
Petty and childish regarding the committee. check
You don't call the NADs of Sweden, Finland and Denmark asking for names for a committee, and get them to produce a partisan report. Of course Reinebo might not know that, since AFAIK he is not a doctor.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Discgear said:
Karma of today, Johnsrud Sundby performs the ultimate faceplant.
true. but his outward behavior towards the one who just beat him continues to stand in sharp contrast with many norges. he and serhey had a genuine-looking hand shake and even a hug...martin also refused to join the self-righteous chorus on many occasions. could be he's just smart to look humble. could be genuine...at least he's not like northug running his mouth when his legs dont deliver. i mean his comment after the matveva/stina fall that if she tested for epo she should not have been at the vm...the *** forgot that if one drives drunk, lies and runs away from the scene, such a *** should not be eligible for another driving license...
 
Feb 4, 2012
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Re: Re:

BullsFan22 said:
Love the Asterix and Obelix reference. It's exactly what this is. It seems like Bjoergen fell into a big of medication years ago and she is still reaping the benefits. Actually she is still probably jumping into the cauldron and is beating all those pesky Romans (Swedes, Finns, Russians, Americans, Germans....everyone pretty much).
Every since she got that TUE to use asthma medication just prior to the 2010 Vancouver Games she's been lights out. I don't know what's going on, but it's rather peculiar for one person to be that much better than everyone else, and for so long! Keep in mind the second best female skier over that period, who's also younger, recently got busted for using PEDs. :confused:
 
Re: Re:

Pazuzu said:
BullsFan22 said:
Love the Asterix and Obelix reference. It's exactly what this is. It seems like Bjoergen fell into a big of medication years ago and she is still reaping the benefits. Actually she is still probably jumping into the cauldron and is beating all those pesky Romans (Swedes, Finns, Russians, Americans, Germans....everyone pretty much).
Every since she got that TUE to use asthma medication just prior to the 2010 Vancouver Games she's been lights out. I don't know what's going on, but it's rather peculiar for one person to be that much better than everyone else, and for so long! Keep in mind the second best female skier over that period, who's also younger, recently got busted for using PEDs. :confused:
One of the most disturbing things with the "independent" investigation about medical practice within the Norwegian XC-team was that the committee didn't consider TUEs at all. That's inconceivable considering the statements after Johnsrud Sundby verdict: no doping, just an administrative problem, forgot to apply for a TUE.... and so on. :confused:
Python, don't forget that also Johnsrud Sundby is a convicted drunk and drive offender.
 
Re: Re:

ToreBear said:
I think it's important to remember that the ethics of doping, and what is considered doping has changed a lot since the 70s. And it's probably not fun to explain what you did then, that is looked upon as unethical or forbidden now. My guess would be he was doing research and the application and implication of that research led to perhaps assisting some athletes more than he should have. Kyrö seems to accuse everyone though. :lol:

But I seem to remember something about the menns xc team taking bloodbags from a hospital before lahti WC in 1978. But I don't remember Videmann having anything to do with that. Is my memory faulty?

By the 89 blood doping paper, are you thinking about or the Fis project? If it's in english I would love it if you could share. I'm a bit confused about the 1989 Fis project. I remember reading they tested all the athletes, but I also remember reading they only tested the first 4+2 random in each race. I don't have access to that paper, only what I think are abstracts.
You are definitely right that there was an official inquiry in 1983-1985 on the missing blood bags that vanished from a Finnish hospital in 1974, 1975 and 1978, but the doctor involved who was mentioned wasn't Tapio Videman, even though the doctor involved was affiliated with some Finnish cross-country skiers from late 1960s onwards.

I am also slightly confused about who actually authorised the blood detection project of 1988-1989. It appears to be that the Finnish Ski Association (SHL) made the initiative after they got green light from the FIS, but they had no resources so they turned to the National Olympic Committee, who gave them funding and some resources. The blood actually drawn for research purposes was from the cross country skiers.

I went through the archives of the Finnish Olympic Committee and the only reference to the control group of the rEPO-project was from from the first meeting of the scientific committee when they discussed the matter. Naturally it is interesting why at least two people involved had the recollection that there was the control group if it didn't materialise in the end. That doesn't mean that such a group did exist, but I remain slightly skeptical, because I have some reservations on the objectivity of Mr. Vettenniemi. But he is definitely right that there is very little material published on the whole project.

I also read the new doping book by Erkki Vettenniemi and even wrote a 2500 word review of it with the focus on the source material, I can say that there is very little anything really new. I can give some further insight, but it was surprisingly unoriginal, even when it is honestly not that bad book at all.

I can send you some Swedish/English-language documents if you give your email address in a private message, but the material is mostly some technical details on the homologous blood doping project and on the day-to-day application of the blood tests, there is only roughly some dozen non-Finnish documents at all out of the close to 100 documents I found interesting and of which I obtained a copy into my research file.
 
BullsFan22 said:
Not the report, but the link between the report and individual athletes. They know manipulation occured. They know how it occured, but they have no idea if the manipulated samples were dirty in the first place.

IIRC the report. The information in the report pointed to some athletes being given the instruction to deliver a clean sample somewhere. I can easily see them thinking; "Well duh, all my samples are clean, but sure whatever" and delivered them.

Those who are currently suspended might be the ones instructed to do so, indicating they were part of the scheme. But for all we know they could have had no idea they were part of anything. The organizers of the coverup could just have assumed in error that they were dopers, or intended to dope without any input from them or their coaches.

The only other info I remember reading was that an angry letter about Sasha delivering a sample from the nationals with too much astma medication that had to be switched out.

But for all we know, it might have been a mistake with a TUE, or something, and that is not something that should get you more than a few months suspension.(If he can't prove it wasn't taken for performance enhancing purposes, it would be longer.)

Still the the suspension was upheld by CAS, so it seems they felt they had enough evidence. Yes i'm :confused: too. The only sensible explanation to me is that FIS has more information than is official in the report. Otherwise this seems totally unfair.

This is a nice story:
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/ski-vm-2017/ustjugov-om-dopingutestengte-kamerater-det-kunne-like-gjerne-vaert-meg/a/23934599/

Sergey said it could just as easily have been him being suspended. If the Mclaren report has not been oficially translated to Russian, they should. But as stated above, it's hard to know what the specific reasons for the individual suspensions are.

When he was told that Sasha had cried tears of joy over his gold he started tearing up too. And said he didn't just race for himself, but for all his teammates that couldn't bee there.

I'm starting to like Sergej more and more.

Additionally when asked what he ate back in Norway(were they had their precamp) to become so good, he answers "your brown cheese". That's also Johaugs secret weapon. :D
 
Marit still makes a mockery of the sport. Fails to breath hard while going around a super tough course in a bodybuilder's body, 41 seconds faster than anyone in a dirty sport.
I genuinely can't enough such sports viewing. It's like a video game where the player's power level is a hack.
 
Feb 4, 2012
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Re: Re:

BullsFan22 said:
Saint Unix said:
I see Queen Marit raced hard for Therese today.
Bjoergen annihilated everyone. Kalla at 41 seconds, Jacobsen at 55, Weng at well over 1 minute...
What is she?,,, 36 going on 37? And still she dominates! I thought athletes were supposed to slow down by their mid-30s. Guess she's what you'd call an outlier. A freak of nature. An anomaly. A one of a kind..... :rolleyes:
 
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