Doping in XC skiing

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The Swedish XC-team doctor Per Andersson today posted an open letter in Dagens Nyheter, "the Guardian" of Sweden. It's a well pronounced, personal and poetic tribute to sports and XC-skiing, but also filled with melancholic reflections.
http://www.dn.se/sport/oppet-brev-fran-skidlandslagets-lakare-medicinska-landvinningar-anvands-for-overgrepp-pa-idrottens-sjal/

The chief editor of sports in DN, Johan Esk replied:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-en-lakares-ensamma-nodrop-om-det-sjuka-laget/

Highly recommended read. Maybe Per Andersson is a dying creature of an old and idealistic world. Anyhow, his views and humanistic approach is in stark contrast to the leadership of the Red Asthma Train.
 
Jan 3, 2016
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Discgear said:
The Swedish XC-team doctor Per Andersson today posted an open letter in Dagens Nyheter, "the Guardian" of Sweden. It's a well pronounced, personal and poetic tribute to sports and XC-skiing, but also filled with melancholic reflections.
http://www.dn.se/sport/oppet-brev-fran-skidlandslagets-lakare-medicinska-landvinningar-anvands-for-overgrepp-pa-idrottens-sjal/

The chief editor of sports in DN, Johan Esk replied:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-en-lakares-ensamma-nodrop-om-det-sjuka-laget/

Highly recommended read. Maybe Per Andersson is a dying creature of an old and idealistic world. Anyhow, his views and humanistic approach is in stark contrast to the leadership of the Red Asthma Train.
The Norwegian team may have won the battle in Lahti, and the Skiforbundet seems to be winning the hearts and minds campaign in Norway, but the war isn't over yet. XC remains in a very troubled position when its most successful national team, by far, refuses to lead by example.
 
Blaaswix said:
Discgear said:
The Swedish XC-team doctor Per Andersson today posted an open letter in Dagens Nyheter, "the Guardian" of Sweden. It's a well pronounced, personal and poetic tribute to sports and XC-skiing, but also filled with melancholic reflections.
http://www.dn.se/sport/oppet-brev-fran-skidlandslagets-lakare-medicinska-landvinningar-anvands-for-overgrepp-pa-idrottens-sjal/

The chief editor of sports in DN, Johan Esk replied:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-en-lakares-ensamma-nodrop-om-det-sjuka-laget/

Highly recommended read. Maybe Per Andersson is a dying creature of an old and idealistic world. Anyhow, his views and humanistic approach is in stark contrast to the leadership of the Red Asthma Train.
The Norwegian team may have won the battle in Lahti, and the Skiforbundet seems to be winning the hearts and minds campaign in Norway, but the war isn't over yet. XC remains in a very troubled position when its most successful national team, by far, refuses to lead by example.
Indeed.
Just realized that the articles might be behind a pay wall. Use these links if so is the case:

https://unvis.it/dn.se/sport/oppet-brev-fran-skidlandslagets-lakare-medicinska-landvinningar-anvands-for-overgrepp-pa-idrottens-sjal
https://unvis.it/dn.se/sport/johan-esk-en-lakares-ensamma-nodrop-om-det-sjuka-laget
 
Jan 3, 2016
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On this very thread, it was claimed that Norwegian's wouldn't dope because of the inevitable opprobium.

Last night NRK broadcast a video congratulations message from Therese Johaug to the women's relay team. NRK argues that Johaug has a right of free expression to congratulate her teammates. Of course she does. But does it have to be broadcast on national TV?
 
Apparently Johaug isn't a doper because it "wasn't her fault" and the substance "wasn't taken with the intention of it being performance-enhancing".

Norwegians are always saying that any convicted doper will always be chastised by the media, but Johaug is the country's golden girl, so if there's any way to paint her as innocent you can bet your bottom dollar Norwegians will cling to it as if their lives depended on it. If it's some also-ran Joe Bloggs in a sport that Norway doesn't care about the outrage can be heard all over the country. See Erik Tysse.
 
This wc looked quite clean imo. No big surprises or outlier performances. pretty much known skiers in peak shape duking it out. Sergey back on tds form, perhaps the most suspicious guy seeing as he is both big, heavy, explosive and the most enduring. But he might just be a genetic freak on top shape and I'm a big fan:) Harvey on form with perfect conditions for him today was really cool to see, he's always in contention on the 50k, well deserved!
 
Re:

Saint Unix said:
Apparently Johaug isn't a doper because it "wasn't her fault" and the substance "wasn't taken with the intention of it being performance-enhancing".

Norwegians are always saying that any convicted doper will always be chastised by the media, but Johaug is the country's golden girl, so if there's any way to paint her as innocent you can bet your bottom dollar Norwegians will cling to it as if their lives depended on it. If it's some also-ran Joe Bloggs in a sport that Norway doesn't care about the outrage can be heard all over the country. See Erik Tysse.
I think a lot of Norwegians figured out that there is a difference between violating the AD rules, and Doping, as in actually trying to enhance performance. Reading the Sundby case might have convinced some, though I doubt many bothered. But the Johaug case made all the legal and ethical dilemmas more accessible.

I think that is a good development.
 
Discgear said:
The Swedish XC-team doctor Per Andersson today posted an open letter in Dagens Nyheter, "the Guardian" of Sweden. It's a well pronounced, personal and poetic tribute to sports and XC-skiing, but also filled with melancholic reflections.
http://www.dn.se/sport/oppet-brev-fran-skidlandslagets-lakare-medicinska-landvinningar-anvands-for-overgrepp-pa-idrottens-sjal/

The chief editor of sports in DN, Johan Esk replied:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-en-lakares-ensamma-nodrop-om-det-sjuka-laget/

Highly recommended read. Maybe Per Andersson is a dying creature of an old and idealistic world. Anyhow, his views and humanistic approach is in stark contrast to the leadership of the Red Asthma Train.
The top one seems more befitting a poet then a doctor.
The second one seems to make his argument clear.
No one should be treated by anything but proven methods. That's just too simplistic. Doctors often use unproven methods to treat their patients. It's a cost/benefit analysis for the health of well being of the patient.

If it's proven 10 years from now that the current methods used by the other countries is correct and has no ill effects, while not using that method causes long term suffering, he has actually caused more harm by not administering treatment.

In this case it is nebulized saltwater that is totally harmless. I have trouble seeing his arguments against treatment. His arguments seem based on flawed ethical reasoning.
 
Jan 3, 2016
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ToreBear said:
Discgear said:
The Swedish XC-team doctor Per Andersson today posted an open letter in Dagens Nyheter, "the Guardian" of Sweden. It's a well pronounced, personal and poetic tribute to sports and XC-skiing, but also filled with melancholic reflections.
http://www.dn.se/sport/oppet-brev-fran-skidlandslagets-lakare-medicinska-landvinningar-anvands-for-overgrepp-pa-idrottens-sjal/

The chief editor of sports in DN, Johan Esk replied:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-en-lakares-ensamma-nodrop-om-det-sjuka-laget/

Highly recommended read. Maybe Per Andersson is a dying creature of an old and idealistic world. Anyhow, his views and humanistic approach is in stark contrast to the leadership of the Red Asthma Train.
The top one seems more befitting a poet then a doctor.
The second one seems to make his argument clear.
No one should be treated by anything but proven methods. That's just too simplistic. Doctors often use unproven methods to treat their patients. It's a cost/benefit analysis for the health of well being of the patient.

If it's proven 10 years from now that the current methods used by the other countries is correct and has no ill effects, while not using that method causes long term suffering, he has actually caused more harm by not administering treatment.

In this case it is nebulized saltwater that is totally harmless. I have trouble seeing his arguments against treatment. His arguments seem based on flawed ethical reasoning.
And the other stuff, the stuff that's not just saltwater? The correct medical advice is to stop doing XC, especially at low temperatures. It's not a human right to take part in elite XC.
 
Blaaswix said:
ToreBear said:
Discgear said:
The Swedish XC-team doctor Per Andersson today posted an open letter in Dagens Nyheter, "the Guardian" of Sweden. It's a well pronounced, personal and poetic tribute to sports and XC-skiing, but also filled with melancholic reflections.
http://www.dn.se/sport/oppet-brev-fran-skidlandslagets-lakare-medicinska-landvinningar-anvands-for-overgrepp-pa-idrottens-sjal/

The chief editor of sports in DN, Johan Esk replied:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-en-lakares-ensamma-nodrop-om-det-sjuka-laget/

Highly recommended read. Maybe Per Andersson is a dying creature of an old and idealistic world. Anyhow, his views and humanistic approach is in stark contrast to the leadership of the Red Asthma Train.
The top one seems more befitting a poet then a doctor.
The second one seems to make his argument clear.
No one should be treated by anything but proven methods. That's just too simplistic. Doctors often use unproven methods to treat their patients. It's a cost/benefit analysis for the health of well being of the patient.

If it's proven 10 years from now that the current methods used by the other countries is correct and has no ill effects, while not using that method causes long term suffering, he has actually caused more harm by not administering treatment.

In this case it is nebulized saltwater that is totally harmless. I have trouble seeing his arguments against treatment. His arguments seem based on flawed ethical reasoning.
And the other stuff, the stuff that's not just saltwater? The correct medical advice is to stop doing XC, especially at low temperatures. It's not a human right to take part in elite XC.
I actually think thats the only bit. Although IIRC the Swedish Asthma expert Kjell Larsson said the Norwegians should perhaps use more Beta2 agonists.

As for stopping XC skiing in low temperatures. Perhaps they could adjusts the minimums a bit. But the optimal solution might be a combination of that as well as treatment of some form.

As for human rights. IIRC you think no medication should be allowed at all. I don't agree with that.
 
ToreBear said:
Discgear said:
The Swedish XC-team doctor Per Andersson today posted an open letter in Dagens Nyheter, "the Guardian" of Sweden. It's a well pronounced, personal and poetic tribute to sports and XC-skiing, but also filled with melancholic reflections.
http://www.dn.se/sport/oppet-brev-fran-skidlandslagets-lakare-medicinska-landvinningar-anvands-for-overgrepp-pa-idrottens-sjal/

The chief editor of sports in DN, Johan Esk replied:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-en-lakares-ensamma-nodrop-om-det-sjuka-laget/

Highly recommended read. Maybe Per Andersson is a dying creature of an old and idealistic world. Anyhow, his views and humanistic approach is in stark contrast to the leadership of the Red Asthma Train.
The top one seems more befitting a poet then a doctor.
The second one seems to make his argument clear.
No one should be treated by anything but proven methods. That's just too simplistic. Doctors often use unproven methods to treat their patients. It's a cost/benefit analysis for the health of well being of the patient.

If it's proven 10 years from now that the current methods used by the other countries is correct and has no ill effects, while not using that method causes long term suffering, he has actually caused more harm by not administering treatment.

In this case it is nebulized saltwater that is totally harmless. I have trouble seeing his arguments against treatment. His arguments seem based on flawed ethical reasoning.
That was not a long shot that you wouldn't agree with any criticism, nore being able to see any problems whatsoever within Norwegian XC-skiing, despite two high-profile doping cases 2016.

However, FIS doping expert Rasmus Damsgaard, basically agrees with the Swedish team doctor and says: if you need a Nebulizer you should stay at home and not participate in races. Further on he says that you should have scientific evidence before you treat people.
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/ski-vm-2017/fis-dopingekspert-trenger-du-aa-bruke-forstoever-boer-du-holde-deg-hjemme/a/23939180/?expId=df-86-d779144e&varId=df-86-d779144e

Just one warning for the fainthearted: In the article the newspaper claims it was more than three years since a well-known XC-skier was caught in doping. :surprised: Denial and arrogance seems indeed to be a widespread disease,
 
Discgear said:
ToreBear said:
Discgear said:
The Swedish XC-team doctor Per Andersson today posted an open letter in Dagens Nyheter, "the Guardian" of Sweden. It's a well pronounced, personal and poetic tribute to sports and XC-skiing, but also filled with melancholic reflections.
http://www.dn.se/sport/oppet-brev-fran-skidlandslagets-lakare-medicinska-landvinningar-anvands-for-overgrepp-pa-idrottens-sjal/

The chief editor of sports in DN, Johan Esk replied:
http://www.dn.se/sport/johan-esk-en-lakares-ensamma-nodrop-om-det-sjuka-laget/

Highly recommended read. Maybe Per Andersson is a dying creature of an old and idealistic world. Anyhow, his views and humanistic approach is in stark contrast to the leadership of the Red Asthma Train.
The top one seems more befitting a poet then a doctor.
The second one seems to make his argument clear.
No one should be treated by anything but proven methods. That's just too simplistic. Doctors often use unproven methods to treat their patients. It's a cost/benefit analysis for the health of well being of the patient.

If it's proven 10 years from now that the current methods used by the other countries is correct and has no ill effects, while not using that method causes long term suffering, he has actually caused more harm by not administering treatment.

In this case it is nebulized saltwater that is totally harmless. I have trouble seeing his arguments against treatment. His arguments seem based on flawed ethical reasoning.
That was not a long shot that you wouldn't agree with any criticism, nore being able to see any problems whatsoever within Norwegian XC-skiing, despite two high-profile doping cases 2016.

However, FIS doping expert Rasmus Damsgaard, basically agrees with the Swedish team doctor and says: if you need a Nebulizer you should stay at home and not participate in races. Further on he says that you should have scientific evidence before you treat people.
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/ski-vm-2017/fis-dopingekspert-trenger-du-aa-bruke-forstoever-boer-du-holde-deg-hjemme/a/23939180/?expId=df-86-d779144e&varId=df-86-d779144e

Just one warning for the fainthearted: In the article the newspaper claims it was more than three years since a well-known XC-skier was caught in doping. :surprised: Denial and arrogance seems indeed to be a widespread disease,
Again, there is a difference between doping and violating the anti-doping rules. Damsgaard himself argued for asthma issues being moved to a medicine list outside of the doping rules.

The problems, seems to have been shown quite clearly. The doctors aren't good with paper work and organizing stuff, and their system is not human error proof.

He also stresses that he hasn't read the report... But I'm curious as to what he has against nebulizers. The big thing is should have scientific evidence. Should is different from must which I'm under the impression the Swedish doctor wants.

He also says the Russians that participated have been tested to the same standard as the rest of the athletes(FIS has taken samples to the "west" for testing etc).

He also mentions an EPO hole in the 2009-2010 period where they were testing for only two EPO types(pharmaceutical), while there were over a hundred types not available in pharmacies. They took that problem to WADA and fixed it. He mentions that some might have been extremely fortunate to not have been caught.

He also thinks the amount of improvement you can get from epo microdosing that you might be able to get away with is so small that a good night sleep or vaxing work would give a better effect.

He also says that if you want to watch sport with the least amount of doping possible you should watch cycling and XC skiing.

As for denial, you might want to think about that term a little more.
 
IOC is not going to appeal Johaug verdict.
https://www.nrk.no/sport/ioc-dropper-johaug-anke-1.13412614

Tomorrow we will know if FIS is going to appeal.

If not, than we have to wait for WADA and CAS.

Btw, just came home from 90 minutes aerobic training. Had planned to do 10K XC but it's way to cold outside. Inhaled two doses of Symbicourt before the workout. Didn't need the Bricanyl luckily. Can't believe that Bjørgen or Johnsrud Sundby are real asthmatics when I watch them blast the goal line seeminlgy unaffected after stunning performances. Johnsrud Sundby just 80% lung capacity, come on!

It's quite disturbing actually, all those ridiculous claims and doses, when you really suffer from allergic and exercise-induced asthma since childhood.
 
Discgear said:
IOC is not going to appeal Johaug verdict.
https://www.nrk.no/sport/ioc-dropper-johaug-anke-1.13412614

Tomorrow we will know if FIS is going to appeal.

If not, than we have to wait for WADA and CAS.

Btw, just came home from 90 minutes aerobic training. Had planned to do 10K XC but it's way to cold outside. Inhaled two doses of Symbicourt before the workout. Didn't need the Bricanyl luckily. Can't believe that Bjørgen or Johnsrud Sundby are real asthmatics when I watch them blast the goal line seeminlgy unaffected after stunning performances. Johnsrud Sundby just 80% lung capacity, come on!

It's quite disturbing actually, all those ridiculous claims and doses, when you really suffer from allergic and exercise-induced asthma since childhood.
The news are out, FIS will appeal to CAS in Johaug's case. The medical panel thinks 13 months is not enough for such doping violation.

I have to admit to be mighty surprised about the decision.
 
bambino said:
Discgear said:
IOC is not going to appeal Johaug verdict.
https://www.nrk.no/sport/ioc-dropper-johaug-anke-1.13412614

Tomorrow we will know if FIS is going to appeal.

If not, than we have to wait for WADA and CAS.

Btw, just came home from 90 minutes aerobic training. Had planned to do 10K XC but it's way to cold outside. Inhaled two doses of Symbicourt before the workout. Didn't need the Bricanyl luckily. Can't believe that Bjørgen or Johnsrud Sundby are real asthmatics when I watch them blast the goal line seeminlgy unaffected after stunning performances. Johnsrud Sundby just 80% lung capacity, come on!

It's quite disturbing actually, all those ridiculous claims and doses, when you really suffer from allergic and exercise-induced asthma since childhood.
The news are out, FIS will appeal to CAS in Johaug's case. The medical panel thinks 13 months is not enough for such doping violation.

I have to admit to be mighty surprised about the decision.
That was a welcome surprise. I think an independent verdict was inevitable after the strange handling in the first "trial", where the judge openly discussed how different suspensions would inflict her participation in the Olympics. Also, I think the situation might had looked differently, if Johaug had sued the team doctor. Not doing so is highly damaging for the official story.

Here is the appeal: http://www.fis-ski.com/mm/Document/document/General/10/06/38/FISappealstoCASondecisioninThereseJohaugcase_Neutral.pdf
However, the FIS Doping Panel has found that the sanction imposed is on the low end of the
range of reasonable sanctions and fails to adequately reflect the fact that the athlete Therese
Johaug failed to read the doping warning label printed in red on the package despite the fact that the medication was unknown to her and was purchased in a foreign country.
 
Feb 15, 2015
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Didn't see that one coming!

FIS state that the verdict doesn't reflect that Johaug ignored/failed to read the doping warning on the packaging. In the ADNO verdict it was said something like it couldn't be expected that she would look for a symbol like that because it is exclusive to Italy.

I guess the FIS boss wasn't joking when he was calling for a four year ban.
 
Mar 7, 2017
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Long time reader of this thread but first time posting.

It is real surprise FIS appeals ADNO:s verdict on Johaug. Not in regards to Kaspers public words early on, but if it is the case that Rasmus Damsgaard is involved, as implied in a recent post, as a representative of FIS. I really did not think he would initiate a case against Norway. That is very surprising to me.

But I have to admit, I have no idea what part of FIS is appealing the verdict, and what people is part of this very department. I tried to find out but could not get the picture straight.
 
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