Doping in XC skiing

[BullsFan22]

Any idea on Dahlmeier trashing the competition and beeing sick and fainting after the races?

She is a big talent. Already saw it in the juniors, winning multiple golds at the world juniors and she didn't have any trouble transitioning to the senior ranks. I like to compare her to Sergey Ustiugov and Stina Nilsson in the cross country. They dominated the junior races, and they didn't take time to start winning in the senior category.

As far as being sick and fainting...well...it could be because of the very warm conditions in the individual (10+ degrees Celsius) and perhaps she didn't take enough fluids.

For me, it's the fact that she gets sick in between races at the world cups. She'll race well, then get sick and miss races, then when she comes back, she wins some more races. Usually when you come back from an illness, it takes you time to full get into things. She hardly misses a beat. Like Johan Olsson. Probably not even sick, just wants to rest and train.....

 

[kingjr]

I don't think she has been ill this season though.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yea, I think I said last year that I think Laura just doesn't tend to compete when not feeling 100%, so she's not really sick per se, instead resting up to not get sick and so she's back healthy and raring to go when she comes back; the depth of the German team means they don't rely on her for results entirely so she can afford to do that. If you look back at around 2010-11 Neuner did the same, skipping Östersund sick then being close to the best in Hochfilzen, pulling out of races at Antholz, and even winning a sprint at Holmenkollen before then pulling out of the ensuing pursuit sick (though in fairness to her, she competed in the mass start the following day as she was in contention for the small globe, and was way below her best). Laura raced way too much in 2013-14 because of the team's crisis, getting fatigued and struggling after the Olympics, then the following two seasons she's missed some races at the start of the season meaning she's way behind in the crystal globe battle, so resting up when not 100% is an easier decision to make. This year, she's been healthy at the start of the season, won early and took the yellow bib, and then has only had a couple of races off (although the decision to take those at Oberhof was somewhat strange).

I think the comparison to the junior supertalents is fair. Look at the Nové Město junior Worlds in 2011, when a 17-year-old Dahlmeier (1st year youth) was entered in the junior fields alongside athletes up to 3 years older than her, including Wierer, Eckhoff, Olsbu, Runggaldier, Hojnisz and Puskarčíková, and was able to win medals and out-performed all of those except Doro at that point. From her junior records we can fairly surmise Laura was the best German prospect in the system since Neuner, and that has been borne out as a pro. She also has a similarity to Lena in that she doesn't seem all that fussed by biathlon and expects to retire young. She is certainly the one among the top women in the sport who achieved the most as a junior, perhaps tied with Doro who won several races that year. MDH was pretty useful as a junior, Soukalová was unremarkable but nevertheless hampered by the funding gap with the Czech team at the time, Kaisa didn't really break out until her mid 20s, and most others have only been able to compete at the level of those few sporadically this season.

At the same time, albeit at the youth level, Loginov won medals at those same Junior Worlds in 2011, and beat Johannes Bø in a couple of the races at the Obertilliach Junior Worlds in 2013.

 

[May0maniac]

Any idea on Dahlmeier trashing the competition and beeing sick and fainting after the races?

She is a big talent. Already saw it in the juniors, winning multiple golds at the world juniors and she didn't have any trouble transitioning to the senior ranks. I like to compare her to Sergey Ustiugov and Stina Nilsson in the cross country. They dominated the junior races, and they didn't take time to start winning in the senior category.

As far as being sick and fainting...well...it could be because of the very warm conditions in the individual (10+ degrees Celsius) and perhaps she didn't take enough fluids.

For me, it's the fact that she gets sick in between races at the world cups. She'll race well, then get sick and miss races, then when she comes back, she wins some more races. Usually when you come back from an illness, it takes you time to full get into things. She hardly misses a beat. Like Johan Olsson. Probably not even sick, just wants to rest and train.....

If it had only happened yesterday I'd give her a pass because of the warm conditions, but today it happened again, something feels a bit off.
Yes, she was always hyped as the nex Neuner, but I don't know how much you can tell if you just look at those results, Libertine already mentioned the fact that Loginov was also a huge talent as a junior.

 

[Cloxxki]

I seem to remember that Neuner and later Goessner were much faster at 18 when they hit the WC scene than Dahlmeijer. Dahlmeijer gained more speed as a senior than the former two did. Dahlmeijer was a great shot from the beginning though, even in relays.
I seem to a also remember Germans who were average skiers and in their year of slightly unexpected retirement suddenly started posted the fastest ski times.

As with all performance sports, I can't imagine Dahlmeijer being so dominant on the skis while when as few as one modestly talented skier does blood doping and/or overdone asthma treatment. So all of women's biathlon is clean, and has been for a decade (look at Makkarainen's consistency around the ski speed top), or it's been drenched in doping this same time. You can't call the likes of Starykh laking more talent than EPO doping could ever help her. So conclusion: very unlikely for any in the top 30 for ski speed to be clean. I don't want to give a hint of a "level playing" though, as obviously to me, Germany and Norway get away with stuff Russia would get a national life ban on the sport for.

 

[roundabout]

Re:

I seem to remember that Neuner and later Goessner were much faster at 18 when they hit the WC scene than Dahlmeijer. Dahlmeijer gained more speed as a senior than the former two did. Dahlmeijer was a great shot from the beginning though, even in relays.
I seem to a also remember Germans who were average skiers and in their year of slightly unexpected retirement suddenly started posted the fastest ski times.

As with all performance sports, I can't imagine Dahlmeijer being so dominant on the skis while when as few as one modestly talented skier does blood doping and/or overdone asthma treatment. So all of women's biathlon is clean, and has been for a decade (look at Makkarainen's consistency around the ski speed top), or it's been drenched in doping this same time. You can't call the likes of Starykh laking more talent than EPO doping could ever help her. So conclusion: very unlikely for any in the top 30 for ski speed to be clean. I don't want to give a hint of a "level playing" though, as obviously to me, Germany and Norway get away with stuff Russia would get a national life ban on the sport for.

And those were?

As for Starykh, do these results suggest great talent?

http://biathlonresults.com/?IBUId=BTRUS22608198701

But maybe in your universe missing 2+ years of competition and suddenly getting top results at 26 is less suspicious than steadily progressing like Dahlmeier (without the j).

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

Soukalová was unremarkable but nevertheless hampered by the funding gap with the Czech team at the time

She wasn't even part of the Czech team in junior age.

Also, maybe more omportantly, Soukalova was originally xc skier and changed to biathlon in quite late age.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Soukalová was unremarkable but nevertheless hampered by the funding gap with the Czech team at the time

She wasn't even part of the Czech team in junior age.

Also, maybe more omportantly, Soukalova was originally xc skier and changed to biathlon in quite late age.

Whether or not she was part of the Czech team, they did take her to the Junior World Championships three years running, however, so we do have a handle on her junior level.

2008, Ruhpolding (year 2 youths):
37th in the sprint (3+2, +2'42 from Maren Hammerschmidt who shot clear)
22nd in the pursuit (2+2+2+2, +5'09 from Janin Hammerschmidt, Maren's twin sister, who missed 6)
36th in the individual (0+2+2+2, +6'09 from Dorothea Wierer who hit 19/20)
Here she has a good pursuit despite the weak shooting scores, but I suspect weather was a factor there as Ruhpolding is one of the easier places to shoot and there were several who shot worse - both Ringen twins and Maren Hammerschmidt missed 10, Dorothea Wierer and Synnøve Solemdal 11 and Bente Landheim 13 - but even shooting the perfect score she wouldn't have beaten Wierer, who's a year one youth at this point.

2009, Canmore (year 1 juniors):
15th in the sprint (2+2, +1'34 from Nicole Wötzel who hit 9/10. Gössner was second at 8" after missing 5)
15th in the pursuit (2+1+0+3, +4'01 from Gössner who started 1'26 ahead and missed 8 targets)
8th in the individual (2+0+2+1, +3'24 from Nicole Wötzel who hit 18/20. 9" behind Vitková who also hit 15/20 but is a year older than Soukalová. 2'19 behind Gössner who missed an extra target)
1st in the relay (together with Vitková and Zvaricová).
- Note at this point Gössner is a year 2 youth at this point as she's a year younger than Soukalová, but you can clearly see the issue with shooting exists for the reason you outline above, as these shooting results would be nigh on unthinkable for her now. And in fairness, with the exception of 2011-12 after intestinal surgery, Gössner was always an outlier in terms of ski speed until her accident.

2010, Torsby (year 2 juniors):
14th in the sprint (0+2, +1'57 from Maren Hammerschmidt who shot clear)
10th in the pursuit (1+1+0+1, +2'35 from Sophie Boilley who also hit 17/20 and started 1'40 ahead of her)
13th in the individual (1+2+1+0, +3'11 from Reka Forika who hit 20/20)
- the ski speed only really shows itself in the individual and even then not at an extent that suggests the improvement she has made in her years as a pro, but her shooting is massively improved on previous years here.

You can see her making progress through the juniors, but no evidence that she was a supertalent the way we can see with the likes of Dahlmeier. Of course junior records aren't the be all and end all, though; Maxim Tsvetkov and Maren Hammerschmidt are hardly the world's best but they were winning medals all through the junior years. Dorothea Wierer is a more direct comparison to make to Soukalová was a great junior, often besting her in the races they came up against one another in despite being a year younger, before dominating the 2011 Junior Worlds (the first year Soukalová went to the elite level).

Can you confirm when she switched to biathlon as it might give a bit more colour to the interpretation of those shooting results. Vanessa Hinz, for example, switched to biathlon in 2012 so when she was already a junior, so there aren't any youth results to point out, but Soukalová isn't in the squad in her first youth year (Martello 2007) - the Czechs are Lea Johanidesová and Jana Becajová at that point - so could that be where?

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

You can see her making progress through the juniors, but no evidence that she was a supertalent the way we can see with the likes of Dahlmeier.

We have no evidence on her being biathlon supertalent, but than again Koukalova began with biathlon in late age in season 2003/04 or 2005/06 and was trained only by her paretns. So one should look at her junior result the way that for the beginner she was in fact quite impressive. Her progress through the juniors fits.

Of course junior records aren't the be all and end all, though

Yes, they can even be very misleading. Shining in junior age doesn't automatically mean that athlete is supertalent (as is often interpreted here).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

At the same time, Franziska Preuß took up biathlon at 15, and at 18 is winning junior medals as a year two youth, Vanessa Hinz picked up a rifle when she was already 19, and was close to the junior Worlds individual medals (and won one in the relay) in her first year as a biathlete; and you yourself have used "unremarkable" junior records that are no worse than Gabi's as arguments to suspect people, like when we had that neverending back-and-forth about a supposed transformation in Tiril Eckhoff.

I just mentioned that compared to her peers at the top level right now, Dahlmeier was arguably the best (Wierer being the other) as a junior. Dahlmeier's also been more of an instant success than any of those too; you've pointed out Soukalová's results late 2010-11, but Wierer was much more visible in her World Cup results in the second half of that season, then has taken some time to adapt. Soukalová's wash-out of a 2011-12 season makes her look very out of nowhere in 2012-13 and her ski speed has improved a lot in the period since then, and at this point four seasons on we're pretty used to seeing her at the head of the field. Maren Hammerschmidt, who was the pick of the 1989 girls as a junior, had the problem you often find with the biggest teams in that they've got too many talents for everybody to develop so she wasn't competing against the World Cup competition often, then she had an argument with the team management about not fulfilling their IBU Cup allocations in 2012-13, and it has taken her a few years working off her own back to get back into the centre of the team.

You know I don't like Koukalová, and I know that you'll come in with mitigating circumstances considering I mentioned a Czech and this post is in the Clinic, but that post was not intended to start a debate about her. It was a throwaway bit about Dahlmeier's junior record. Please let's not get into this again.

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

I just mentioned that compared to her peers at the top level right now, Dahlmeier was arguably the best (Wierer being the other) as a junior.

And I haven't argued with that, so... I've just pointed out that she began with biathlon lately, wasn't part of national team and was only trained by her parents at junior age, who are no biathletes.

you've pointed out Soukalová's results late 2010-11

I wasn't talking about that at all.

You know I don't like Koukalová

Didn't remember that.

I know that you'll come in with mitigating circumstances considering I mentioned a Czech and this post is in the Clinic, but that post was not intended to start a debate about her. It was a throwaway bit about Dahlmeier's junior record. Please let's not get into this again.

I just wanted to point out circumstances that affected Koukalova's performances as a junior, then you've asked me something so I've answered.
I haven't explained your worlds as some doping accusations so I wasn't ment as Koukalova's defence; don't make of it someting it wasn't intended, I beg you; that was a bit unfair.

 

[Cloxxki]

Landertinger, part of a team that's been said to have mis-timed their peak for the home championships, has mistaken the last lap for an XC sprint race. OK, Schemp isn't at his best perhaps, but that was something...

 

[kingjr]

It's his signature move, has been since always. They lost about 15 seconds to Shipulin until that climb.

 

[Discgear]

Report from Granskningsutvalget, part 1

Some remarks concerning the ”Asthmareport” last week. Part 1
http://www.skiforbundet.no/Images/Utvalgsrapport 15.2.2017.pdf

The commission has only scrutinized the use of medicines concerning asthma and respiratory.
12.7.2

Som redegjort for i punkt 3.5 og 3.6 har utvalget ikke hatt innsyn i den enkelte utøvers pasientjournal. Utover spørsmål som konkret har rettet seg mot legemiddelbruk i tilknytning til astma og lignende luftveislidelser, har utvalget i intervjuene heller ikke stilt spørsmål til utøverne om annen legemiddelbruk.

So they have only asked questions concerning medical use for asthma and respiratory.
Furthermore, they say they haven’t even looked at the individual athletes medical records.

Utvalget har ikke gjennomgått de enkelte utøvernes pasientjournaler. Utvalget har ikke vurdert dette som strengt nødvendig for utføring av granskningsoppdraget, og av hensyn til utøverens personvern har utvalget derfor valgt å ikke be om utøvernes samtykke til innsyn i eller utlevering av pasientjournaler

This is of course highly problematic. It’s well known fact that with different combinations of drugs, you can achieve performance enhancing effects, especially with Beta2-agonists and different steroids.

Finally they claim:

Dersom man tar flere legemidler samtidig, kan dette medføre et uforsvarlig eller helseskadelig overforbruk. Enkelte legemidler skal heller ikke tas samtidig med andre legemidler på grunn av interaksjoner.

So they mention there might be medical hazards with combining different drugs but not a word about performance enhancing effects.

Not anywhere in the report is to find anything about which TUEs have been granted to the Norwegian skiers before or today. If a thorough investigation about medical treatment and practice, how can they leave this part out? It makes no sense.

 

[Discgear]

Some remarks concerning the ”Asthmareport” last week. Part 2
http://www.skiforbundet.no/Images/Utvalgsrapport 15.2.2017.pdf

As reported by media there has been something similiar to a fruit basket with free access to different prescription drugs at the 2nd floor of the Ski Waxing bus. The athletes has without any medical guidance been able to put desired medication into the Nebulizator for inhalation. According to the report this practice was stopped during last autumn.

Det at reseptpliktige legemiddel har vært lett tilgjengelige i smøretraileren er i strid med god medisinsk praksis. Rutinene har således vært mangelfulle. Gjennom den etter forholdene dårlige kontrollen av legemidler i traileren har det vært muligheter for utøvere å inhalere legemidler via forstøver uten på forhånd å ha kontakt med en lege.
Uten tvil har det at reseptpliktige legemidler har vært fritt tilgjengelige i smøretraileren vært i strid med gjeldende regelverk for håndtering av legemidler. Flere av utøverne har selv reagert på rutinene omkring inhalasjon, og enkelte har opplevd det som uriktig. Dette gjelder spesielt utøvere som har kommet inn som ny på landslaget. (12.4.2)

The medicine bag has been handled without any clear routines during camps. They’ve found out that other personnel than the medical doctors have delivered medicals to the athletes without any clearance from the doctors. Furthermore they’ve found out that single athletes have picked up drugs from the medical bag without clearance from the doctors. :surprised: :surprised:

Utvalget legger til grunn at det har vært til dels dårlige og uklare rutiner knyttet til utlevering av, og tilgang til, legemidler fra medisinkoffertene. Utvalget legger til grunn at legemidler i all hovedsak har blitt utlevert av lege selv eller av annet helsepersonell etter forutgående avklaring med lege. Utvalget har imidlertid gjennom intervjuer fått opplysninger som kan tyde på at helsepersonell uten klarering med lege har utlevert legemidler til utøver. (2.14)

Utvalget har gjennom intervjuer også fått opplysninger som kan tyde på at utøver selv har hentet legemidler i medisinkofferten, samtidig som det for utvalget er uklart om dette har skjedd etter forutgående klarering med helsepersonell. (12.13.2)

 

[Discgear]

Some remarks concerning the ”Asthmareport” last week. Part 3
http://www.skiforbundet.no/Images/Utvalgsrapport 15.2.2017.pdf

Concerning performance enhancing drugs some mindboggling facts are pronounced in the report.

Koffein er et eksempel på et ergogent stoff. Koffein har dokumentert prestasjonsfremmende effekt på utholdenhet og anaerob styrke. Koffeinets prestasjonsfremmende effekt skyldes hovedsakelig stimulering av sentralnervesystemet. Koffein utsetter utmattelse og øker sentralt driv. Effekten av koffein er den samme uavhengig av koffeinkilde så lenge dosen er den samme. (12.12.2)

I utvalgsarbeidet har imidlertid utvalget blitt kjent med at det i en periode var praksis for at laglegene forskrev koffeintabletter til enkelte utøvere. Som nevnt er koffein et ergogent stoff, det vil si at det har en prestasjonsfremmende effekt. Koffein står på WADAs overvåkningsliste, men utvalget vil understreke at koffein er tillatt brukt og ikke i strid med dopingregelverket.
På et tidspunkt begynte imidlertid laglegene å forskrive reseptbelagte koffeintabletter til enkelte utøvere. Denne praksisen startet etter råd fra OLT og var begrunnet i at en slik måte å innta koffein på ville være mer skånsomt for utøvernes mage enn inntak av større mengder kaffe. (12.12.2)

Caffeine is performance enhancing but not prohibited. It’s currently being monitored by WADA. It turns out there has been a practice from the team doctors to prescribe caffeine pills to the athletes. This was based on an advice from Olympiatoppen since it would be more gentle to the stomach compared to drink big amounts of coffee and Coca Cola.

Gray areas indeed.

But even worse:

I tillegg til slike generelle retningslinjer har OLT utarbeidet særskilte protokoller for bruk av ulike ergogene stoffer. Når det gjelder koffein fremgår at det skal gjennomføres omfattende utprøving for å finne frem til lavest mulig dose for størst mulig effekt. Det fremgår videre at koffein kan brukes som et verktøy ved behov i utvalgte renn, spesielt i forbindelse med jetlag etter reise.

So, at Olympiatoppen there are guidlines and protocols for different performance enhancing substances. The advice for caffeine is that extensive testing should be performed to find out the lowest dose with the biggest effect. They also advice that caffeine can be used as a tool in certain competitions, especially in connection with jetlag or travels.
NB, in the report they refer to caffeine as an example (since their mandate only concerned asthma and respiratory) but it’s perfectly clear there are guidelines and use of other performance enhancing substances.

 

[Cloxxki]

With such grey areas, why not top off on synefrine? Or has that avenue been re-closed by WADA?
I tried it after it was removed from The List. Didn't notice anything in my careful dosage. A friend looking to lose weight, couldn't get any sleep on it, heart racing too much. For some it will surely work just fine, especially when sufficiently trained (fatigued).

 

[kosmonaut]

Here's a good comment on the asthma report (in Norwegian): http://www.andreasselliaas.no/2017/02/18/skiforbundet-ble-ikke-friskmeldt-de-fikk-en-diagnose/

 

[python]

^it is encouraging, that there still are sober voices in norway that were capable of reading the 'independent' report as NOT a complete endorsement.

i'd also like to read about those norwegians that questioned WHY the well known and respected researchers of the asthma meds performance enhancement were NOT included in the 'asthma commission. their swedish and danish names were widely quoted in the immediate aftermath of the sundby case, to be now completely forgotten.

then, perhaps, i would believe in the independence and the objectivity of a differently composed commission.

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.dn.se/sport/svenske-landslagslakaren-oerhort-provocerande/
Swedes calling it provocative that it's apparently "ethically wrong" not to use Nebulizator.

 

[Cloxxki]

Re:

http://www.dn.se/sport/svenske-landslagslakaren-oerhort-provocerande/
Swedes calling it provocative that it's apparently "ethically wrong" not to use Nebulizator.

Unfortunately behind a subscription of sorts that requires a Swedish phone.

 

[BullsFan22]

Good to see the Swedes keeping the pressure on the Norwegians. It's a shame that it's really been the Swedes (the media mostly), the Finns (the media mostly, but Saarinen has been outspoken as well) and Kowalczyk. Everyone else either doesn't care or is defending the Norwegians.

http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/svenska-svaret-efter-astmakritiken/

 

[python]

most swedes don't really care about the norwegian xc ski excesses. they really dont.

but when they read the aggressive rhetoric from the norsk team about the big/little brother complex or about not helping the norsk pet 'independent' panel, then some swedes get upset...

no worries. it is not likely to end up in a swedish crown getting the norsk crown back....though i personally would have a lot of fun if it did go that way. not gonna go beyond the grumbling we all know will go for ever btwn the competitive brothers. the younger bro has to, and hopefully will, eventually learn to be better mannered.
----
if i read the media right, tomorrow we should learn if legkov and belov will joint the rus team in lahti. also, and quite remarkable, the norwegian media suddenly became a conduit to the calls to change the wada code b/c.......the national darling lil therese was innocent. that the numerous dozens of non-norges in the same or worst predicament never warranted the call for the wada change, should be chalked to the norsk obsession with themselves

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

most swedes don't really care about the norwegian xc ski excesses. they really dont.

but when they read the aggressive rhetoric from the norsk team about the big/little brother complex or about not helping the norsk pet 'independent' panel, then some swedes get upset...

no worries. it is not likely to end up in a swedish crown getting the norsk crown back....though i personally would have a lot of fun if it did go that way. not gonna go beyond the grumbling we all know will go for ever btwn the competitive brothers. the younger bro has to, and hopefully will, eventually learn to be better mannered.
----
if i read the media right, tomorrow we should learn if legkov and belov will joint the rus team in lahti. also, and quite remarkable, the norwegian media suddenly became a conduit to the calls to change the wada code b/c.......the national darling lil therese was innocent. that the numerous dozens of non-norges in the same or worst predicament never warranted the call for the wada change, should be chalked to the norsk obsession with themselves

The decision on Legkov and Belov will come either tomorrow or Wednesday. Rather ridiculous that such a decision will come literally a day before the world champs. I am not really sure what sort of mental state they'll be in even if they are allowed to compete in Lahti. It's a joke for FIS and WADA to hold these guys as hostages for two months. I don't know what their chances are with CAS. I'd like to see them competing in Lahti, considering how easy Sundby got off and how there are plenty of others doping through either TUE's or using asthma meds when they don't even need the asthma meds. And what exactly are they being punished for? Something that some other actor did as he had an axe to grind, and then conveniently left the country?

 

[Discgear]

Re:

most swedes don't really care about the norwegian xc ski excesses. they really dont.

but when they read the aggressive rhetoric from the norsk team about the big/little brother complex or about not helping the norsk pet 'independent' panel, then some swedes get upset...

no worries. it is not likely to end up in a swedish crown getting the norsk crown back....though i personally would have a lot of fun if it did go that way. not gonna go beyond the grumbling we all know will go for ever btwn the competitive brothers. the younger bro has to, and hopefully will, eventually learn to be better mannered.
----
if i read the media right, tomorrow we should learn if legkov and belov will joint the rus team in lahti. also, and quite remarkable, the norwegian media suddenly became a conduit to the calls to change the wada code b/c.......the national darling lil therese was innocent. that the numerous dozens of non-norges in the same or worst predicament never warranted the call for the wada change, should be chalked to the norsk obsession with themselves

Yes, the tidal change in the inner sport circles of Norway concerning the WADA code is nauseing. Less than one year ago, many pushed for a 8-year ban violating the WADA-code. Today it's about saving Therese at all costs, even if it takes throwing the Code out of the window.

Today Løfshus went on another rampage against the Swedes. He hopes though, that a lot of Norwegian medals in Lahti will silence the critique from abroad and the media.
http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/vintersport/langrenn/Lofshus-langer-ut-mot-mediene-og-Sveriges-sjef-230912b.html