Doping in XC skiing

[alternator]

Dürr was someone that appeared out of nowhere at the TdS - having been 40+ placed in world cup in the few races he had run previously, for example 45th in a Davos 30k about 4 minutes behind the winner. He did have some almost-success in juniors but was not a "megatalent". As he was able to reach the top, at least when it comes to climbing ability, with EPO, it indicates to me that the more talented skiers were not at least supercharging at the time.

No, it's the recent revelations about the Norwegian juniors and their medical treatment that feels like a more important piece of the puzzle. The Norwegian sports system feels more and more like DDR. If these supertalents have had this kind of treatment, how many more non-famous kids have had something similar to try and correct whatever deficiency in their athletic potential, and to make it possible for them to train harder from a young age? What about the nutrition, "vitamins", so on... do the kids even know for sure what they are receiving?

So I am starting to suspect the Norwegian dominance is built on a large cohort of young skiers that are largely competing clean, with just some TUE shenaninigans. However, their physiques were built up during their school years with who knows what shady techniques until they reached the "megatalent" level and can compete and dominate without doping (million+ euro wax and support teams are of course also very helpful in converting the athletes performance potential into results).

I admit that this conspiracy theory is a bit out there, and a lot of it is just based on a squicky gut feeling whenever some Norwegian team doctor or medical expert is shown in public.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

...and after today's Mass Start in Ruhpolding, Russia's Evgeniya Pavlova lit the blue touchpaper. It seems there's been some unhappiness back in Russia about her loss of form after such a good start to the season and that she's now been under-strength or missed races sick twice in the space of a month, and today she hit all 20 targets but finished over 3 minutes down. Obviously heat of the moment post-race interviews are not a good place for diplomacy, especially when, as Pavlova has been, you've been struggling to sleep and been ill, but she hit back, saying that the athletes aren't made of iron and, more crucially for the themes of discussion here, that "I'm not from a country that gets given TUEs". She goes on to ask why other countries' athletes aren't expected to apologise to their own on behalf of people who've doped.

For context, Evgeniya Pavlova is mentioned in the McLaren report, she was a 20-year-old junior at the time, and like 11 others who were part of the team for the Presque Isle Junior World Championships in 2014, her name appears on one date, for one test, which came back negative. She beat Fialková in the Universiade a year later, but has only just been given the opportunity to do World Cup racing this year as she is from an unfashionable area and has not been popular with the team bigwigs, so she also could speak with a level of resentment of the way the team have treated her (she is also critical in the interview of the coaches for making her do races she was in no fit state to do). But it's certainly a warts-and-all interview...

 

[Bavarianrider]

Re:

Dürr was someone that appeared out of nowhere at the TdS - having been 40+ placed in world cup in the few races he had run previously, for example 45th in a Davos 30k about 4 minutes behind the winner. He did have some almost-success in juniors but was not a "megatalent". As he was able to reach the top, at least when it comes to climbing ability, with EPO, it indicates to me that the more talented skiers were not at least supercharging at the time.

No, it's the recent revelations about the Norwegian juniors and their medical treatment that feels like a more important piece of the puzzle. The Norwegian sports system feels more and more like DDR. If these supertalents have had this kind of treatment, how many more non-famous kids have had something similar to try and correct whatever deficiency in their athletic potential, and to make it possible for them to train harder from a young age? What about the nutrition, "vitamins", so on... do the kids even know for sure what they are receiving?

So I am starting to suspect the Norwegian dominance is built on a large cohort of young skiers that are largely competing clean, with just some TUE shenaninigans. However, their physiques were built up during their school years with who knows what shady techniques until they reached the "megatalent" level and can compete and dominate without doping (million+ euro wax and support teams are of course also very helpful in converting the athletes performance potential into results).

I admit that this conspiracy theory is a bit out there, and a lot of it is just based on a squicky gut feeling whenever some Norwegian team doctor or medical expert is shown in public.

Well Duerr did manage to beat guys like Cologna and Hellner, who were 1-2 years older than him" at World Junior Championchips. So he most definitely did have some Talent.
He mentions Ruhpolding as a place "were shady things go on" and as the place were he got an Infusion for the very first time.

 

[olhell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=703oK0SyGOc

For those of you who speak some German. A fairly interesting docuentary about Johannes Dürr and his Doping. Caught some fire in German as i stated that some of his blood Doping actually happened in Germany with the help of Germany, though he didn't mention any names.
Also, 4 years ago Dürr was a legit medal candidat. No he's trying to qualify for Seefeld but finishes in the likes of 50th place in the Alpencup. Just Shows what Kind of difference Doping makes. And, that no one who finishes up front in xc siing and Biathlon can do so without juicing. The difference it makes is simply way too big.

There is an English version on their homepage:
https://www.sportschau.de/doping/video-doping-top-secret-confession--inside-the-mind-of-a-doper-100.html

 

[alternator]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=703oK0SyGOc

For those of you who speak some German. A fairly interesting docuentary about Johannes Dürr and his Doping. Caught some fire in German as i stated that some of his blood Doping actually happened in Germany with the help of Germany, though he didn't mention any names.
Also, 4 years ago Dürr was a legit medal candidat. No he's trying to qualify for Seefeld but finishes in the likes of 50th place in the Alpencup. Just Shows what Kind of difference Doping makes. And, that no one who finishes up front in xc siing and Biathlon can do so without juicing. The difference it makes is simply way too big.

There is an English version on their homepage:
https://www.sportschau.de/doping/video-doping-top-secret-confession--inside-the-mind-of-a-doper-100.html

Thanks, quite interesting. Understood a lot more from the English version.

 

[Discgear]

Just a few thoughts on Fossesholm, who sometimes in Norwegian media is described as the new Bjoergen and by others as the new Johaug, since the Norwegian Ski Federation announced last week that she has been treated with growth hormones from December 2014 until September 2017.

Her father says to the Finnish television: The MDs recommended the treatment. We could not foresee that she would become a top athlete.
https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2019...-tal-det-finns-alltid-nagon-som-ar-missunnsam

Well, she seemed to do just fine already in January 2015, one month into the treatment:
https://www.bygdeposten.no/helene-m...um/helene-tar-bakkene-med-et-smil/s/5-10-5371

Notable is also that her father Øivind Foss is a well known MD and head of a Pharmaceutical company. He was trained at Norwegian University of Sport and Physical Education.
https://no.linkedin.com/in/øivind-foss-88347659
Her mother is also MD, a specialist.
https://www.legehus.no/leger/dr-gunhild-therese-fossesholm/

So, I guess they might not only have relied on other MDs recommendations.
Btw, her father is also her trainer.

No critique whatsoever to the medical treatment if it was necessary. But the core question is if you should be allowed to compete on the highest level with this kind of treatment.

 

[BullsFan22]

"IOC Disappointed." Hahaha. Disappointed that their lies couldn't hold up in a legitimate court of law.

http://aroundtherings.com/site/A__75518/Title__IOC-Disappointed-at-Decision-of-Swiss-Federal-Tribunal/292/Articles


If I were Legkov and the other 27 (and more to come), I'd sue.

Wonder what McLaren, Seppelt, Rodchenkov and the IOC will come up with next? Seppelt now maybe going a different direction...

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

Just a few thoughts on Fossesholm, who sometimes in Norwegian media is described as the new Bjoergen and by others as the new Johaug, since the Norwegian Ski Federation announced last week that she has been treated with growth hormones from December 2014 until September 2017.

Her father says to the Finnish television: The MDs recommended the treatment. We could not foresee that she would become a top athlete.
https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2019...-tal-det-finns-alltid-nagon-som-ar-missunnsam

Well, she seemed to do just fine already in January 2015, one month into the treatment:
https://www.bygdeposten.no/helene-m...um/helene-tar-bakkene-med-et-smil/s/5-10-5371

Notable is also that her father Øivind Foss is a well known MD and head of a Pharmaceutical company. He was trained at Norwegian University of Sport and Physical Education.
https://no.linkedin.com/in/øivind-foss-88347659
Her mother is also MD, a specialist.
https://www.legehus.no/leger/dr-gunhild-therese-fossesholm/

So, I guess they might not only have relied on other MDs recommendations.
Btw, her father is also her trainer.

No critique whatsoever to the medical treatment if it was necessary. But the core question is if you should be allowed to compete on the highest level with this kind of treatment.

I agree. Does anyone knows how tall is she? Thanks.

 

[Gotland]

Re: Re:

Just a few thoughts on Fossesholm, who sometimes in Norwegian media is described as the new Bjoergen and by others as the new Johaug, since the Norwegian Ski Federation announced last week that she has been treated with growth hormones from December 2014 until September 2017.

Her father says to the Finnish television: The MDs recommended the treatment. We could not foresee that she would become a top athlete.
https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2019...-tal-det-finns-alltid-nagon-som-ar-missunnsam

Well, she seemed to do just fine already in January 2015, one month into the treatment:
https://www.bygdeposten.no/helene-m...um/helene-tar-bakkene-med-et-smil/s/5-10-5371

Notable is also that her father Øivind Foss is a well known MD and head of a Pharmaceutical company. He was trained at Norwegian University of Sport and Physical Education.
https://no.linkedin.com/in/øivind-foss-88347659
Her mother is also MD, a specialist.
https://www.legehus.no/leger/dr-gunhild-therese-fossesholm/

So, I guess they might not only have relied on other MDs recommendations.
Btw, her father is also her trainer.

No critique whatsoever to the medical treatment if it was necessary. But the core question is if you should be allowed to compete on the highest level with this kind of treatment.

I agree. Does anyone knows how tall is she? Thanks.

She is 151cm.. She was 137,5cm when they started the medications when she was 13y. I think this treatment was ok since she is still so short.

 

[Discgear]

Re: Re:

Just a few thoughts on Fossesholm, who sometimes in Norwegian media is described as the new Bjoergen and by others as the new Johaug, since the Norwegian Ski Federation announced last week that she has been treated with growth hormones from December 2014 until September 2017.

Her father says to the Finnish television: The MDs recommended the treatment. We could not foresee that she would become a top athlete.
https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2019...-tal-det-finns-alltid-nagon-som-ar-missunnsam

Well, she seemed to do just fine already in January 2015, one month into the treatment:
https://www.bygdeposten.no/helene-m...um/helene-tar-bakkene-med-et-smil/s/5-10-5371

Notable is also that her father Øivind Foss is a well known MD and head of a Pharmaceutical company. He was trained at Norwegian University of Sport and Physical Education.
https://no.linkedin.com/in/øivind-foss-88347659
Her mother is also MD, a specialist.
https://www.legehus.no/leger/dr-gunhild-therese-fossesholm/

So, I guess they might not only have relied on other MDs recommendations.
Btw, her father is also her trainer.

No critique whatsoever to the medical treatment if it was necessary. But the core question is if you should be allowed to compete on the highest level with this kind of treatment.

I agree. Does anyone knows how tall is she? Thanks.

She is 151cm.. She was 137,5cm when they started the medications when she was 13y. I think this treatment was ok since she is still so short.

Where do you draw the line? I guess she has a length now that will assure she doesn't have a huge disadvantage in XC. After all: Johaug is 160, Weng is 163 and Ebba is 164. What about basketball? I guess everyone in men's basket under 188 will have a huge disadvantage. When is it fair to use growth hormone for a basketballer? When your projected length is 160, or 170, or 180?

 

[Sciatic]

Actually, GRH should only be prescribed if she had a growth-hormone deficiency, that is, her body did not naturally make enough of the hormone. But generally that would be identified at a much younger age. When there is a deficiency, taking GRH is important because there can be other health consequences (aside from height) from inadequate growth hormone production. We can't know one way or the other since we don't know her medical history.

If, however, the parents/doctors had her take GRH without tests showing a hormone deficiency, and they did it so she had a chance as a competitive skier, then it's absolutely PED use. I don't know what the penalty would be, but I wouldn't totally excuse it just because it was her parents initiative.

 

[DenisMenchov]

I think it's perfectly okay to get HGH for whatever medical reason, however I think that should also be an immediate stop to your professional sporting career. Maybe one day, sportsman will be allowed to use whatever PED they want, but for now...

 

[frenchfry]

Alexander Tikhonov says that Loginov was ordered to dope by Russian authorities, but isn't saying anything in order to protect those involved.

http://www.ski-nordique.net/biathlon-loginov-ne-peut-pas-dire-la-verite.6187484-72348.html

 

[glassmoon]

Re:

Alexander Tikhonov says that Loginov was ordered to dope by Russian authorities, but isn't saying anything in order to protect those involved.

http://www.ski-nordique.net/biathlon-loginov-ne-peut-pas-dire-la-verite.6187484-72348.html

wouldn't be surprising at all...

 

[zarnack]

Leaving aside the debate about who dopes how much - which would remain only a hazy inconclusive matter - what I have found fascinating in general is how much Russians get caught compared to other countries. Now if you look at those so-called western countries, only a couple have been caught from each country, and then you can add outliers like Finland in 2001. But Russians have been caught in much bigger quantities.

I wonder, what to make of it. I suspect it's largely political. Russia doesn't really trust the "west", their laboratories, etc. And politically they are in a bit of a war with the west. So basically what they do is that they are prepared to sacrifice some of their athletes just to try to beat the "west" by all means. After all, politically their athletes remain heroes in their own country even after getting caught, and it's a 'conspiracy' if someone is caught with doping by the west?

However, I think this endless, umm, war, has had consequences particularly on Russian biathlon. They are not as strong or with as much depth as they used to be in the past decades, 90's, or 2000's. In cross-country their men team is still going strong, but perhaps that's possible, because there is lesser competition in XC and fewer countries, who take it seriously. And, after all, Russia has so many people they can afford to "lose" some and still have depth.

 

[frenchfry]

Bolshunov pulls a Johaug. Good grief.

Good thing I am now convinced that Russian doping is all fake news, otherwise I would be inclined tho think that his "preparation" for the worlds is right on track.

 

[melkemugg]

Niskanen interview afterwards was fun. He had a hard time choosing his words about Bolshunovs effort. It also seem like the russians have very good material under their skiis this season as well.

 

[BullsFan22]

Well, Niskanen took a beating today. But he won a month ago, and nobody batted an eye, when Bolshunov was the only one anywhere near him. Plus, exactly two years ago Niskanen lost 37 seconds to Sundby in the Otepaa 15km classic, so virtually the same scenario as today, yet just ten days later in Lahti, he beat Sundby by 18 seconds, so a 55 second turnaround by Niskanen in ten days.

Also, what about his sister? Nothing, absolutely no significant results this year, and here she is winning a world cup on the eve of the championships. Now, I know that the top Norwegians, Swedes, the top two Americans, Niskanen's teammate Parmakoski, and perhaps one or two other top 10-15 placers on the WC were not there, but her results on the world cup scene this season, prior to today, were: 30th, 33rd, 22, and 36th, in the order she raced them. She was 1:15 behind Nepryaeva in Ruka (30th place to the Russian's 7th), a massive 2:31 behind the Russian in Beitostoelen in a 15km skate (Nepryaeva 7th, Niskanen 33), exactly 2 minutes behind the Russian in Otepaa exactly a month ago, there she finished 22nd while Nepryaeva finished 3rd. The most recent individual distance on the calendar was in Ulricehamn, a 10km skate, where Nepryaeva was 1:12 ahead (7th place) of the Finn (36th).

Today Niskanen had the fastest closing last couple km, and she took almost 6 seconds out of Nepryaeva who is almost always a good finisher and has historically been a faster sprinter and double-poler than the Niskanen. So what gives? Russian women losing steam, Niskanen suddenly finding a minute+ that she lost to Nepryaeva at every race she took part in this year, good skis vs not as good skis, someone taking this as a training session? If Kerttu Niskanen is peaking well for Seefeld, why can't Alexander Bolshunov be peaking for Seefeld as well? And what about Nadine Faehndrich? She too, was well behind the top Russians in every distance race this season. One look and you'll see that the alps nations did well, in both the sprint and distance races in Cogne. The conditions this weekend were pretty much normal to what they are used to and it's high altitude. The Russians spent three weeks at altitude, the top Swedes are either just coming back from Seiser Alm and/or Toblach or are coming down to Seefeld (lower altitude) just before the first races on Thursday. Everyone reacts differently to training and racing at high altitude and when they are coming down to lower altitudes. You may lose speed, but keep the endurance. What was Niskanen's reason for skiing well today, after basically doing nothing so far this season? And if her brother wins the 15km classic or the team sprint classic, turning around 40+ seconds (as he did in 2017) to the winner in the pre-World Championship races, will he be looked at suspiciously?

 

[bambino]

Well, Niskanen took a beating today. But he won a month ago, and nobody batted an eye, when Bolshunov was the only one anywhere near him. Plus, exactly two years ago Niskanen lost 37 seconds to Sundby in the Otepaa 15km classic, so virtually the same scenario as today, yet just ten days later in Lahti, he beat Sundby by 18 seconds, so a 55 second turnaround by Niskanen in ten days.

Also, what about his sister? Nothing, absolutely no significant results this year, and here she is winning a world cup on the eve of the championships. Now, I know that the top Norwegians, Swedes, the top two Americans, Niskanen's teammate Parmakoski, and perhaps one or two other top 10-15 placers on the WC were not there, but her results on the world cup scene this season, prior to today, were: 30th, 33rd, 22, and 36th, in the order she raced them. She was 1:15 behind Nepryaeva in Ruka (30th place to the Russian's 7th), a massive 2:31 behind the Russian in Beitostoelen in a 15km skate (Nepryaeva 7th, Niskanen 33), exactly 2 minutes behind the Russian in Otepaa exactly a month ago, there she finished 22nd while Nepryaeva finished 3rd. The most recent individual distance on the calendar was in Ulricehamn, a 10km skate, where Nepryaeva was 1:12 ahead (7th place) of the Finn (36th).

Today Niskanen had the fastest closing last couple km, and she took almost 6 seconds out of Nepryaeva who is almost always a good finisher and has historically been a faster sprinter and double-poler than the Niskanen. So what gives? Russian women losing steam, Niskanen suddenly finding a minute+ that she lost to Nepryaeva at every race she took part in this year, good skis vs not as good skis, someone taking this as a training session? If Kerttu Niskanen is peaking well for Seefeld, why can't Alexander Bolshunov be peaking for Seefeld as well? And what about Nadine Faehndrich? She too, was well behind the top Russians in every distance race this season. One look and you'll see that the alps nations did well, in both the sprint and distance races in Cogne. The conditions this weekend were pretty much normal to what they are used to and it's high altitude. The Russians spent three weeks at altitude, the top Swedes are either just coming back from Seiser Alm and/or Toblach or are coming down to Seefeld (lower altitude) just before the first races on Thursday. Everyone reacts differently to training and racing at high altitude and when they are coming down to lower altitudes. You may lose speed, but keep the endurance. What was Niskanen's reason for skiing well today, after basically doing nothing so far this season? And if her brother wins the 15km classic or the team sprint classic, turning around 40+ seconds (as he did in 2017) to the winner in the pre-World Championship races, will he be looked at suspiciously?

Kerttu Niskanen has suffered from significant overtraining since November and had to stop competing for more than a month and try to recover.

Some interesting facts. She was 22nd in Otepaa in same discipline a month ago. Out of the 21 better skiers than her in Otepaa, total of 5 skiers were competing yesterday in Cogne. 4 Russians (Nepryaeva, Zambalova, Zherebyateva and Durkina) and Italian called Caterina Ganz that I've never heard before. Niskanen won Faendrich by 2.6 seconds in Otepaa, and yesterday... well 3 seconds. So was Kerttu's performance really suspiciously good, or the Russians just failed miserably or are fading badly?

Bolshunov on the other hand in any comparison to i.e Otepaa...

 

[meat puppet]

K. Niskanen has been in a deep hole and i think sorta climbed out of it plus overperformed slightly while many top athletes were not there.

Her situation being what it is, she probably did no big blocks of intensity as worlds prep before cogne whereas others might have, so maybe raced fresher.

Unless she pulls a huge performance in seefeld (i have my doubts) the more eyebrow rising thing about her is that she is coached by one Pekka Vähäsöyrinki of Lahti 2001 fame. Not cool.

 

[zarnack]

Well, experienced skiers have often been totally missing for the whole season and find form right in time for the championships. The most striking one was Alsgaard in 2003, when he frankly didn't participate all season and then - bam - won golds.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Well, experienced skiers have often been totally missing for the whole season and find form right in time for the championships. The most striking one was Alsgaard in 2003, when he frankly didn't participate all season and then - bam - won golds.

Veerpalu, Mae, Olsson, Kalla the last two Olympics...I find that more suspicious than someone that skis consistent the whole season or the majority of the season. I don't know what Olsson was doing 2010-2015 (and especially post Oslo 2011) where he'd race the first race of the year then gone away allegedly sick, then disappear until a week before the major starts and then race 3 or 4 races without any issues and win medals in most of those events. It's one thing to try and not overrace, to maintain your fitness while not racing so often because during the season what the main thing is that you maintain fitness and stay healthy, but Olsson suspiciously went away and came back stronger. People were always suspicious of Veerpalu hitting his peak, and rightfully so, but I don't think it's too unfair to be suspicious somebody from this day and age skiing totally differently the second half of the season. I would be saying that about everyone, not just Kerttu Niskanen. Plus, we know that she's had scores of top 10's and has medals from major chamionships, it's just that when you have poor results and then you take a month off to suddenly winning, it should ring some bells. It takes time to recover from overtraining. You do need to take some time off, but you also need to do some easy skiing and not completely loose semblance of form.

 

[zarnack]

I think skiers are different. Some are "machines", who can be on form for 4 months and consistently be at the front. Other can't, so they have to pick and choose their priorities more. Also the older you get, the more you have to pick and choose. You can't expect a 35-40 year old skier to star for the whole season. They have to concentrate on the most important goal.

As for Swedes, quite often they have skipped Tour de Ski to specifically prioritize championship. They think they can't be keep form for both demanding events. Fair enough if they think so.

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

I think skiers are different. Some are "machines", who can be on form for 4 months and consistently be at the front. Other can't, so they have to pick and choose their priorities more.

Nope. We are same species, right?

As for Swedes, quite often they have skipped Tour de Ski to specifically prioritize championship. They think they can't be keep form for both demanding events. Fair enough if they think so.

I've thought Norges often skipped Tour de Ski; maybe both of them.

 

[zarnack]

Well, if you argue that someone is suspicious, because he/she is on form just for the championships, you can also argue it's suspicious that someone can be stunningly good for the whole season and not get worn out. In the end this argument is a dead-end.