Doping in XC skiing

[Mayomaniac]

Weight have to start talking about Vermeulen too...

 

[ppanther92]

Weight have to start talking about Vermeulen too...

Nice improvement indeed (although last year he already had some races where he was among the best 2-3 athletes born 1999 and younger).
The interesting part is that he lives and trains in Norway. With Simen Hegstad Krueger among others. So would assume he would to have get back at the "channels" there.

Another standout transformation for me is a bit the German Biathlon team on a general level. Nawrath, Strelow, Voigt and Preuss have absolute career-high skiing times, rest of the team is at least matching their best years so far. Heard an interview with Filbrich in summer that he thinks that his athletes have the potential to match Norwegian skiing times and I was thinking what the hell the guy is smoking. But seems to not be totally wrong. Interested to see how this develops.

 

[search]

Another standout transformation for me is a bit the German Biathlon team on a general level. Nawrath, Strelow, Voigt and Preuss have absolute career-high skiing times, rest of the team is at least matching their best years so far. Heard an interview with Filbrich in summer that he thinks that his athletes have the potential to match Norwegian skiing times and I was thinking what the hell the guy is smoking. But seems to not be totally wrong. Interested to see how this develops.

interesting for sure, but in Oestersund it mainly looked like they had superiour ski, especially in cold conditions. This was also confirmed by a Swedish technician, for example (according to Michi Rösch, who talked about it on Eurosport).

 

[Mayomaniac]

Nice improvement indeed (although last year he already had some races where he was among the best 2-3 athletes born 1999 and younger).
The interesting part is that he lives and trains in Norway. With Simen Hegstad Krueger among others. So would assume he would to have get back at the "channels" there.

Another standout transformation for me is a bit the German Biathlon team on a general level. Nawrath, Strelow, Voigt and Preuss have absolute career-high skiing times, rest of the team is at least matching their best years so far. Heard an interview with Filbrich in summer that he thinks that his athletes have the potential to match Norwegian skiing times and I was thinking what the hell the guy is smoking. But seems to not be totally wrong. Interested to see how this develops.

Yeah, Vermeulen has been living and training around Lillehammer since 2020, so the Norwegians won't be throwing shade at him quickly...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Nice improvement indeed (although last year he already had some races where he was among the best 2-3 athletes born 1999 and younger).
The interesting part is that he lives and trains in Norway. With Simen Hegstad Krueger among others. So would assume he would to have get back at the "channels" there.

Another standout transformation for me is a bit the German Biathlon team on a general level. Nawrath, Strelow, Voigt and Preuss have absolute career-high skiing times, rest of the team is at least matching their best years so far. Heard an interview with Filbrich in summer that he thinks that his athletes have the potential to match Norwegian skiing times and I was thinking what the hell the guy is smoking. But seems to not be totally wrong. Interested to see how this develops.

I don't have too much concern about the Germans just yet; Preuss' top level is elite (she was 3rd in the World Cup overall a couple of years back) and she did lose the Individual despite hitting 20/20. Strelow has clearly stepped up his game, but he did get trailed around by Dale-Skjevdal for a couple of laps which helped inflate his speed.

I think honestly for their talent level they've been underperforming consistently on the skis for a while, especially the men, but this has been kind of masked by the success of Herrmann and some of the older and more experienced men's racers. People like Zobel were fast but erratic as juniors and are now below World Cup par on the skis, while Sophia Schneider was nicknamed "mini-Miri" as a youth/junior owing to her skiing-biased skillset, which has largely tailed away as she's moved through the ranks, so with allowances made for them having had very good skis in Östersund, it isn't too unreasonable to say they're doing more to maximise what these athletes were already capable of but not performing up to the standard of.

This has also been exacerbated by the Norwegians underperforming (or rather, a couple of particularly notable Norwegians, in Johannes Thingnes Bø and Sturla Holm Lægreid) that would previously have been expected to have bogarted a couple of the podium spots, and an in-form Bø's ski speed making everybody (except maybe sprint race Samuelsson) look pedestrian would hardly be a shock.

Still remains to be seen what the fluor ban will result in as conditions were apparently not really fluor-conducive in Östersund. It's interesting now to read those comments from Sjusjøen about the Norwegians thinking that banning fluor wax would benefit them over other nations because that was something other nations were using to try to compete with Norwegian superiority, but it was instead the Germans that were flying, while the Swedes were not as standout as before. Also rather interestingly, for both Norway and France, it was their perceived second-string that led the charge with their headline talent underperforming. To an extent at least on the men's side the same goes for Germany, with Rees, Strelow and Nawrath clearly outperforming Doll who is probably the biggest remaining name on their men's team.

 

[Fantastico]

interesting for sure, but in Oestersund it mainly looked like they had superiour ski, especially in cold conditions. This was also confirmed by a Swedish technician, for example (according to Michi Rösch, who talked about it on Eurosport).

I also read about Johannes Thingnes Boe saying that because certain substances (fluor-related) are banned from ski waxing this year, skiing technique has really changed for him. He needs to use his upper body much more now to push forward, and he thinks that he currently lacks muscle power for this kind of technique.

Of course, it's not unlikely that German biathletes have found a new gear when it comes to doping. But ski preparation has an important effect, too, and we shouldn't neglect that there have been substantial changes this year which may favor certain athletes, or nations which have adapted faster.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I also read about Johannes Thingnes Boe saying that because certain substances (fluor-related) are banned from ski waxing this year, skiing technique has really changed for him. He needs to use his upper body much more now to push forward, and he thinks that he currently lacks muscle power for this kind of technique.

Of course, it's not unlikely that German biathletes have found a new gear when it comes to doping. But ski preparation has an important effect, too, and we shouldn't neglect that there have been substantial changes this year which may favor certain athletes, or nations which have adapted faster.

Looking at his superiority and double poling last year lack of upper body strength sounds like bs to me.
I've hear that he got an elbow injury when arm wrestling his brother at an event organized by their sponsors.

 

[BullsFan22]

Looking at his superiority and double poling last year lack of upper body strength sounds like bs to me.
I've hear that he got an elbow injury when arm wrestling his brother at an event organized by their sponsors.

Double poling? In skating?

 

[Mayomaniac]

Double poling? In skating?

Sorry, I meant V2 when going uphill.

 

[Fantastico]

Looking at his superiority and double poling last year lack of upper body strength sounds like bs to me.
I've hear that he got an elbow injury when arm wrestling his brother at an event organized by their sponsors.

His words not mine: "You used to be able to fly on skis without much strength in your upper body. I don't think that's the case anymore," the five-time Olympic champion told Norwegian TV station NRK, adding: "Now I'm just too weak, so I have to build up more muscle."

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/mor...eeds-more-muscle-after-rule-tweak/ar-AA1kUOcG

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Looking at his superiority and double poling last year lack of upper body strength sounds like bs to me.
I've hear that he got an elbow injury when arm wrestling his brother at an event organized by their sponsors.

Sounds like Tarjei already got that final big win then.

While it does sound a bit bs-ish, it might be true that he isn't the strongest guy around, but on the other hand, he would still be winning if he was shooting better, so it's not all bad yet.

 

[frenchfry]

It appears that all the Germans needed to go from the hinterland to domination was a Slovenian coach.

 

[BullsFan22]

Perfect timing

Vetle Sjåstad Christiansen brukte medisin på dopinglista for å bli frisk – måtte stå over renn

Vetle Sjåstad Christiansen sleit med sjukdom i ein lang periode. For å bli kvitt plagene vart han sett på medisinar som er forboden under konkurransar.

www.nrk.no

 

[kingjr]

So he took medication to treat health issues, medication that is legal outside of competition, went through all the necessary steps, like checking with WADA etc.... what's the story here?

 

[BullsFan22]

So he took medication to treat health issues, medication that is legal outside of competition, went through all the necessary steps, like checking with WADA etc.... what's the story here?

He’s better at reading labels than Johaug

 

[kingjr]

He’s better at reading labels than Johaug

Fair enough

 

[Sciatic]

So he took medication to treat health issues, medication that is legal outside of competition, went through all the necessary steps, like checking with WADA etc.... what's the story here?

Google translate may not tease out the finer details of the case for me. But because someone takes a medication to treat health issues, medications which are legal outside of competition, does not rule out that they could have used them for doping. Cortico-steroids like prednisone/prednisolone are definite performance enhancers and it’s appropriate that they have strict controls. Doesn’t mean he’s for sure guilty, but it always seems like red herring to say a rider takes medicine for a health problem so that means they must not be doping. In LA’s glory days many journalists and even people I knew said that because he had cancer he couldn’t possibly be doping because he experienced how bad chemicals (including his chemo) could affect him. I never understand that kind of argument.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Google translate may not tease out the finer details of the case for me. But because someone takes a medication to treat health issues, medications which are legal outside of competition, does not rule out that they could have used them for doping. Cortico-steroids like prednisone/prednisolone are definite performance enhancers and it’s appropriate that they have strict controls. Doesn’t mean he’s for sure guilty, but it always seems like red herring to say a rider takes medicine for a health problem so that means they must not be doping. In LA’s glory days many journalists and even people I knew said that because he had cancer he couldn’t possibly be doping because he experienced how bad chemicals (including his chemo) could affect him. I never understand that kind of argument.

It's obviously not evidence that Vetle Sjåstad is clean (I definitely wouldn't put money on that anyway), but we can be quite sure that a drug he used two months ago isn't the reason he won a race today.

He's also been open about struggling with reduced lung capacity, but if course it can't be ruled out that it was a result of doping in the first place.

 

[kingjr]

Google translate may not tease out the finer details of the case for me. But because someone takes a medication to treat health issues, medications which are legal outside of competition, does not rule out that they could have used them for doping. Cortico-steroids like prednisone/prednisolone are definite performance enhancers and it’s appropriate that they have strict controls. Doesn’t mean he’s for sure guilty, but it always seems like red herring to say a rider takes medicine for a health problem so that means they must not be doping. In LA’s glory days many journalists and even people I knew said that because he had cancer he couldn’t possibly be doping because he experienced how bad chemicals (including his chemo) could affect him. I never understand that kind of argument.

But there isn't even a "case". He's just talking about his problems with illness. The context is the strong criticism he voiced after not being selected for Oberhof, which caused a bit of a stir. He is basically saying his health issues amplified his frustration, and providing additional context.

 

[BullsFan22]

But there isn't even a "case". He's just talking about his problems with illness. The context is the strong criticism he voiced after not being selected for Oberhof, which caused a bit of a stir. He is basically saying his health issues amplified his frustration, and providing additional context.

That’s right! Norwegians simply don’t dope.

 

[Aragon]

That’s right! Norwegians simply don’t dope.

Whether Norwegians dope or not is a different question than whether there is anything suspicious in this case.

There is the interesting phenomenon to have the assumption that some country or athlete is tainted and therefore very flimsy evidence is proof that they indeed are.

Sometimes I think that Landis & Contador lost their arbitration cases partly because there had been some evidence linking both of them to doping before their positive tests and in addition to this, doping was considered to be very prevalent. It followed that it didn't matter if there were problems with Landis's lab documents or if the amount of clenbuterol in Contador's sample was so miniscule being borderline undetectable. They were dopers, ergo convict them when you have the opportunity.

 

[Mayomaniac]

So, about today's Johaug show, is she even in any kind of the testing pool atm?

 

[BullsFan22]

Whether Norwegians dope or not is a different question than whether there is anything suspicious in this case.

There is the interesting phenomenon to have the assumption that some country or athlete is tainted and therefore very flimsy evidence is proof that they indeed are.

Sometimes I think that Landis & Contador lost their arbitration cases partly because there had been some evidence linking both of them to doping before their positive tests and in addition to this, doping was considered to be very prevalent. It followed that it didn't matter if there were problems with Landis's lab documents or if the amount of clenbuterol in Contador's sample was so miniscule being borderline undetectable. They were dopers, ergo convict them when you have the opportunity.

Pretty simple, back in 2014-2016, reports were made in the Norwegian media about systematic use of asthma medicine on non asthmatic skiers starting in the late 80’s. Johaug was popped, Sundby was popped, and muscle Marit wrote in her book about how FIS called the doctor in April 2017 about discrepancy in one of her samples from the 30km at the Lahti Word Championships. She was also using symbicort for the longest times, and I am quite sure she was using other ‘methods’ and ‘substances.’ Kowalczyk had every right to be critical back in 2010-2012.

 

[AmRacer]

Pretty simple, back in 2014-2016, reports were made in the Norwegian media about systematic use of asthma medicine on non asthmatic skiers starting in the late 80’s. Johaug was popped, Sundby was popped, and muscle Marit wrote in her book about how FIS called the doctor in April 2017 about discrepancy in one of her samples from the 30km at the Lahti Word Championships. She was also using symbicort for the longest times, and I am quite sure she was using other ‘methods’ and ‘substances.’ Kowalczyk had every right to be critical back in 2010-2012.

Doping fully backed and funded by the Norwegian State via Norwegian Ski Federation?

 

[eriksp92]

Johaug never withdrew from ADAMS when she retired, so she's been tested regularly for the two years she hasn't been competing.