Doping in XC skiing

[Tyler'sTwin]

Does anyone know what the upper Hb 99% CI is for a guy with a 14.5 baseline?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

That's exactly what most people are doing on various Norwegian forums right now. They're using precisely the same arguments as Armstrong did..."he's just jealous, the Finns are bitter and have no credibility" etc. Also some threats against the source in true Armstrong-style.

Show them Bengt Saltin's IDAN-presentation from -06.

Visions,plans and hopes can the doping culture be changed?

Slide14:

1995; some skiers had 20 g/100 ml with all medal winners above 17.5 g /100 ml
From 1997 upper allowed limit for men 18.5 g/100 ml
1999 some 30 male skiers between 17.0- 18.7 g/100 ml; medal winners > 17.0 g/100ml

http://www.powershow.com/view/5bbd2...ulture_be_changed_powerpoint_ppt_presentation

Norwegian individual medal winners @ Thunder Bay in -95: Bjørn Dæhlie (3xsilver)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIS_Nordic_World_Ski_Championships_1995

Norwegian individual medal winners @ Ramsau in -99: Bjørn Dæhlie (1xbronze), Odd-Bjørn Hjelmeset (1xbronze) and Thomas Alsgaard (1xgold, 1xsilver).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIS_Nordic_World_Ski_Championships_1999

Proof that Bengt Saltin is the man behind the presentation:

Visions,plans and hopes;can the doping culture be changed?
http://www.idan.dk/upload/odense.ppt

http://www.ppt2txt.com/dm/www.idan.dk

Idrættens Analyseinstitut - Dopingkonference i Odense

Succes for blodprofiler i skisport

Netop blodprofiler har ifølge professor Bengt Saltin, Institut for Idræt og Biomekanik, SDU, vist sit værd i langrendssporten, hvor man bruger metoden til at opdage unormale afvigelser i antallet af røde blodlegemer og sikre sig mod helbredsfarlige niveauer. Saltin er formand for det internationale skiforbunds (FIS) medicinske komité.

Ændringer i en udøvers blodprofil udløser ikke en sanktion for doping, højst en midlertidig udelukkelse af helbredsårsager. Men blodprofilerne kan bruges til at målrette den egentlige dopingkontrol mod udøvere med mistænkelige værdier. I dag ligger langrendsfeltets gennemsnitlige hæmoglobinniveau da også væsentligt under niveauet i 1990'erne.

Forbundets brug af blodprofiler fik i øvrigt grønt lys af den internationale sportsdomstol, CAS, da man under vintersol i Torino behandlede det internationale skiforbunds helbredsbegrundede udelukkelse af 12 langrendsløbere med for høje hæmoglobinværdier.

Ifølge Saltin kan hovedparten, om end ikke alle, sagerne fra vinter-OL forklares med skiløbernes massive satsning på højdetræning inden vinter-OL. Samtidig nærer Bengt Saltin ingen illusioner om, at skisporten er fri for misbrug af stoffer som EPO og Nesp.

”Der er sket en sofistikering. Atleterne forsvinder i 4-5 dage. Hvis kontrollen dukker uanmeldt op, får de højst en advarsel for ikke at være på det angivne sted. Derefter vedligeholder de niveauet med stoffet albumin, som ikke kan spores,” sagde Bengt Saltin.

Med andre ord kan man sagtens være dopet med EPO eller Nesp, selv om man holder sig under den angivne hæmatokritværdi.

Se Bengt Saltins oplæg fra Odense [Links to http://idan.dk/upload/odense.ppt]

http://idan.dk/Nyheder/122dopingkon...065&ResultPrPage=15&Kortvisning=False&emneID=

Feel free to point out that OBH told Dagbladet his normal Hb is 14.5 and his peak is 15.6.

http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/2001/03/06/245493.html

 

[the sceptic]

Feel free to point out that OBH told Dagbladet his normal Hb is 14.5 and his peak is 15.6.

Maybe thats why he couldnt win anything in the 90s? Why did you mention him btw?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Maybe thats why he couldnt win anything in the 90s? Why did you mention him btw?

I suggest you read my post again. Maybe you'll get it this time?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Here's a hint.

1995; some skiers had 20 g/100 ml with all medal winners above 17.5 g /100 ml
From 1997 upper allowed limit for men 18.5 g/100 ml
1999 some 30 male skiers between 17.0- 18.7 g/100 ml; medal winners > 17.0 g/100ml

Norwegian individual medal winners @ Ramsau in -99: Bjørn Dæhlie (1xbronze), Odd-Bjørn Hjelmeset (1xbronze) and Thomas Alsgaard (1xgold, 1xsilver).

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Apparently.

- Bengt Saltin, director of the Medical Committee of the FIS in 2002, says in the film that many members of the committee used their positions to manipulate and to communicate information to their country men. Such was the atmosphere in 2002, according Saltin.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Finnish coach dislikes that doctors receive prize money

Gällivare (VG) Finland's norwegian coach, Magnar Dalen, is skeptical of countries where doctors get commission and part of the prize money pot.

The Finland coach believes the problem of doping in some places is that athletes have no choice, and then points towards Eastern Europe, and describes it as tragic.

- Doctors are working on commission and gets their share of the prize money, it is not entirely uncommon. Then there can be many people who have interests. In cycling it works the same way, they share the pot, says Dalen.

- Thos of us who work in the sport day after day know who tampers. There is a barometer of whether you are clean, if you keep a similar level throughout the entire season, you keep the same level during the season opener, the Tour de Ski, the championship and the season finale, I'm very confident about those competitors, says Dalen and added:

- But those skiers who keep a low level, then have one or two good weekends, then low again, then perform on a high-level at championships, then I'm skeptical. The worst example is Johann Mühlegg. There were many who understood that something was wrong before the Olympics in 2002, but it is impossible to say anything until you have proof, says Dalen.

http://translate.google.se/translat...port/ski/langrenn/artikkel.php?artid=10071444

Good news & bad news. Wiggins is clean, but Froome is dirty.

 

[the sceptic]

I suggest you read my post again. Maybe you'll get it this time?

Im sorry sir, i will try harder next time

 

[python]

the war of words around the finnish film is far more telling of what the doping problem is about than the actual truth if the norge skiers were indeed blood doping.

some official statements are so painfully familiar to any clinic regular that one has to only interchange fis with uci and one wada lab director with another…the only difference being that fis has no concrete name to threaten to sue in court because the whisle blower has chosen to remain anonymous. I will let 'them' talk (translated from various sources in swedish)

we need solid reasons for re-analysis. anonymous allegations are merit-less&#8230]

... it is essential to open the source before the matter should be even considered

there is not a single sample left, all were destroyed as they were negative

though technically speaking she is absolutely correct, she sounded as she was relieved of a fear rather than expressing her scientific or professional duty.

one opinion in the documentary was also painfully familiar as if it was expressed in post-puerto spain rather than finnland... the opinion that proved correct over and over regardless of who owned the voice cords..

athletes and managers will tell the truth only to the police or in court. a hearing within the sport makes no sense

again, this post is NOT about the norge athletes but about the spineless sporting officials who suddenly become disinterested in the dirty past even though they know saltin told them the truth !

i can only take solace in the fact that there is so far no evidence they have actively covered up positives like verbruggen

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Martin Johnsrud-Sundby: - For me, Lance will always be a great hero. He is the best of those who, if he was doped, doped at the time.

- He has done great things for the sport, but also for the cancer organization "Livestrong" he has built up. He is an amazing athlete and an amazing man.

- I think we should stop the witch hunt against him. For it to have been justified, they must have caught him while he was still active, not ten years later.

- It is too cowardly to catch him retrospectively.

http://translate.google.se/translat...rt/sundby_-_-lance-er-fortsatt-stor-1.8356314

 

[meat puppet]

good posts lately, tyler's twin and python. the similarity of the talking points, rhetorics and tactics in the PR game of omerta in both sports is hilarious indeed.

the saltin slides contain good info about the 90s and are very damning, to me at least. in any case they once again show that, just as in social sciences for example, historical, statistical and aggregted povs should be embraced more in the discussions about doping. VAMs and w/kg markers might be inaccurate, but at least they lend a rough framework for reflection in cycling.

also i think, obviously, that the kyrö quote is spot on. hopefully the documentary continues to hit some sore points abroad as well. in finland the layman repsonse has been largely that it is no use to dig dirt from the past, which is quite understandable yet unsustainable. at the same time there is high demand for results, etc., so BS as usual. all the

many sportsfans also seem to think that the documentary is basically anti-nationalist, which is funny and telling at the same time. nationalism is a very large factor in the doping picture IMO. right there with money, though functioning as an umbrella. in finland it provides a cancer shield of sorts, thus blocking discussions or rendering them very biased.

as for dalen's comments, I think they were generally spot on, though perhaps a bit careless too if read in context. for in recent year one of the archetypes of the racers he calls suspicious for hitting it off once or twice a season has been matti heikkinen.

oh, congrats for the win today, mr sundby. hope you had the special bracelet on.

 

[the sceptic]

Sundby has always come across as a bit of a ****** in his interviews, so him being an Armstrong fan is the least surprising thing ive learned from this thread.

Nice late career transformation though.

 

[torkil]

As a follower of XC-skiing I'd say we've seen a transformation in the sport the last ten years. This might be because of more bunch starts, but a single rider dominating others is not as usual as before is it?

The way Northug wins seems more legit than the way the norwegian skiers of 90's and 00's (he basically tries to get to the finish in the first group as cheap as possible and then wins the sprint).

What do you guys think, am I just hopeful?

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Nothing precise about any precise connections, obviously. But even if they had stone grinded skis, dominating from the early EPO years on with practically no one getting popped continues to raise some eyebrows and questions. So let's just say it's kinda funny that there is an immediate reaction from the skiers. Wasn't the whole thing about cycling, anyway?

Skimming thru Norwegian news sites, it seems that the Kjargaard story has got some attention and perhaps some of that attention will trickle down to other endurance sports as well. Hence the wording damage control in my OP. In Finland, as one might imagine, the story has gotten some spin, too. Kari-Pekka Kyrö for one made a sniding remark that this is like a small pimple being bursted. The implication being that there has been a nationwide programme all along. Predicts that no positives will come from XC skiing, tho.

Maybe our on-site reporters are better informed?

-----------
The doping stories from cycling has received massive attention, and several old heroes have received hard questions. Hushovd also made statements saying that he was sad that whatever he said no, there would always be people doubting him due to other peoples lies, or something like that.

A nationwide program seems very unlikely to me, as there would be a lot of people involved, over a long time, and over time people always talk. None have so far.

These girls showing off their bodies, they have a bit of tradition as attention seekers, nothing new there. Last year they made a video pretending to be *****s from russia visiting norway.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Sundby has always come across as a bit of a ****** in his interviews, so him being an Armstrong fan is the least surprising thing ive learned from this thread.

Nice late career transformation though.

------
The only transformation with Sundby is that he has gotten his skating technique taken care of, instead of being a classic specialist. I would expect this win to be his only of the season, or possibly he'll pull off one more.

The first race usually does not tell us that much, but lets see. Northug and Kowalczyk seemed to have a long way to go, but probably at least the norwegian is back in the top tomorrow !

 

[Cloxxki]

Americans ladies...marginal gains the past summer season?
Kowalckzyk...had a cold turkey for thanksgiving?

 

[Trond Vidar]

Watching the Finnish documentary now. Very interesting, and VERY dirty. Quite introvert on the Finnish scene, but also lots of connections to the Italians -> Conconi. Not much about Norway at all.

Couple of Things:
- Jarmo Punkkinen was the one who taught Conconi how to do blood transfers - around 86.
- Erja Kuivalainen spotted EPO before Lathi Worlds in 1989 on Marjo Matikainens hotel-room table
- Interviews With Donati, Di Centa (55%hct), de Zolt and more.
- Most drugs came from Russia


Encourage everyone to see it. Lucky to have subs in Norwegian.

 

[Velo1ticker]

Do you really want to know though? I mean the Finns have it easy, they know their history is dirty. They didn't really know until it was made painfully obvious by a huge scandal. Even after that there are plenty of people who really don't want to hear more about it and the discussions around the subject seem anything but honest. No point digging up old dirt and so on. Now the issue with the latest 'Finnish claims' that seem to annoy you is that they aren't really about Norwegians. It's for most parts the silly Finns digging into their own dirt and trying to put what they find into context. If you don't like it, dismiss it. I wouldn't expect a documentary into the history of doping in Finland to have much insight into Norwegian sports. It's really up to the Norwegians to figure it out for themselves if you want a reliable source and maybe they already have and there's nothing to worry about.

I do know that trying to label the current 'Finnish claims' as something that has been around for almost 30 years is pure BS. It sounds very much like someone who prefers to know there is nothing to worry about rather than dig too deep into the issues. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that to be honest.

Regarding 30 year old accusations you need to know that the Norwegian coach Lundemo accused Finland of doping after 1984 Olympics. Finland claimed it was the other way around. Now we know the facts. Finnish skiers were doped and they have systematically worked with Russia and later on with Italy when doing dope. There is nothing new about Norway and Sweden in the documentary and it is clearly a rewrite of the 1984 statement “we are innocent but everyone else is cheating” to “everybody did take dope”. It was documented that Finland started in the 70’s and it didn’t stop at the Lahti WC 2001 as they have claimed earlier. Judging from recruitment potential and popularly Norway and Sweden should dominating XC skiing – oh wait, that defense is only valid for Spain and Italy. You also dismiss the fact that Norwegians won the first and last race of the season only to miss out on the big prizes in 1970-89. So when the facts don’t fit you change the facts.
Why is it so important to accuse the Norwegian for maybe taking something (in the 90s) when you’ve got people far worse than Lance and Johan in Russia, Italy, Finland for 4 decades.

 

[maltiv]

Show them Bengt Saltin's IDAN-presentation from -06.

Great post, thanks. Hadn't seen that one before, very interesting to say the least. They have a fair bit of explaining to do if the media gets onto the case.

Although I'm fairly sure they'll blame it on naturally high levels or altitude training...

 

[neineinei]

Regarding 30 year old accusations you need to know that the Norwegian coach Lundemo accused Finland of doping after 1984 Olympics. Finland claimed it was the other way around. Now we know the facts. Finnish skiers were doped and they have systematically worked with Russia and later on with Italy when doing dope. There is nothing new about Norway and Sweden in the documentary and it is clearly a rewrite of the 1984 statement “we are innocent but everyone else is cheating” to “everybody did take dope”. It was documented that Finland started in the 70’s and it didn’t stop at the Lahti WC 2001 as they have claimed earlier. Judging from recruitment potential and popularly Norway and Sweden should dominating XC skiing – oh wait, that defense is only valid for Spain and Italy. You also dismiss the fact that Norwegians won the first and last race of the season only to miss out on the big prizes in 1970-89. So when the facts don’t fit you change the facts.
Why is it so important to accuse the Norwegian for maybe taking something (in the 90s) when you’ve got people far worse than Lance and Johan in Russia, Italy, Finland for 4 decades.

That is the same "logic" applied by those who complain that it is not fair to remove Armstrong from the TdF list of winners because Riis and (add your pick of name of cyclist) haven't been removed. Just because one cheater got away with it all the rest should too.

We know EPO changed cycling. There has always been cheating and doping in cycling, but still the 1990's was a freak show. In an other endurance sport, however, EPO didn't make any impact. In cross country skiing the 1990's was in fact the cleanest decade since the 1950's.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Great post, thanks. Hadn't seen that one before, very interesting to say the least. They have a fair bit of explaining to do if the media gets onto the case.

Although I'm fairly sure they'll blame it on naturally high levels or altitude training...

It's strange that altitude training doesn't have the same effect any more, becuase it's not like skiers stopped altitude training. Is the air at altitude different now? Must be climate change.

 

[Shardi]

That is the same "logic" applied by those who complain that it is not fair to remove Armstrong from the TdF list of winners because Riis and (add your pick of name of cyclist) haven't been removed. Just because one cheater got away with it all the rest should too.

We know EPO changed cycling. There has always been cheating and doping in cycling, but still the 1990's was a freak show. In an other endurance sport, however, EPO didn't make any impact. In cross country skiing the 1990's was in fact the cleanest decade since the 1950's.

Watch the PPT presentation in this thread that highlights hgb values from 87-2005. Mid 90s values vere drastically increased from 15,0 in 87, to 17 something in 98-99 with peak values up to 20. -> EPO.

XC skiing was the same as cycling in the 90s. If u still believe what u wrote, you are an idiot

 

[Alesle]

Watching the Finnish documentary now. Very interesting, and VERY dirty. Quite introvert on the Finnish scene, but also lots of connections to the Italians -> Conconi. Not much about Norway at all.

Couple of Things:
- Jarmo Punkkinen was the one who taught Conconi how to do blood transfers - around 86.

Conconi used blood transfusions with Moser in 1984. From what I recall, what was said in the documentary was that Giuseppe Puliè said they definitely used blood transfusions in 1986 and 1987, before changing to other means (EPO) from 1988. At another point in the documentary I seem to recall it being said that the Italian cross country team was on a full blood transfusion program in ~1982-1984, while Vilho Sadeharju was their coach.

 

[peloton]

We know EPO changed cycling. There has always been cheating and doping in cycling, but still the 1990's was a freak show. In an other endurance sport, however, EPO didn't make any impact. In cross country skiing the 1990's was in fact the cleanest decade since the 1950's.

You can't be serious? EPO was rife in cross country skiing too in the 1990's.

 

[Trond Vidar]

Conconi used blood transfusions with Moser in 1984. From what I recall, what was said in the documentary was that Giuseppe Puliè said they definitely used blood transfusions in 1986 and 1987, before changing to other means (EPO) from 1988. At another point in the documentary I seem to recall it being said that the Italian cross country team was on a full blood transfusion program in ~1982-1984, while Vilho Sadeharju was their coach.

thanks for the clarification. I must have misheard the documentary. Quick googlesearch also confirms your info. http://translate.google.no/translat...//www.fondoitalia.it/storia/6cap.html&act=url