Doping in XC skiing

[Pazuzu]

Yikes, it looks like someone photoshopped that arm onto Bjeorgen!

Wonder if she has a supersized clitoris to go along with those guns?.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Yikes, it looks like someone photoshopped that arm onto Bjeorgen!

Wonder if she has a supersized clitoris to go along with those guns?.

Wow this simply makes me sick.
They should have an extra race class for freaks like "her"
Just not fair fior the normal girls

 

[ToreBear]

Is there a connection we should be worried about then? Or could this point to an all-NO doping network? The girls were eerily dominant last season... One looking like a freight train, the other like a stick figure on well, amphetamie. I'm totally in love with the latter, though...

I think the girls will be better this season. Though due to the World Championships, I don't think they will seem as dominant throughout the season.

I also think we will see some girls from other countries being noticed as having made big improvements, probably surprising some, but not me.

And in my mind none of that will be due to doping.

As for Johaug, my thoughts would be stick figure overdosing on EPO. She skiis much more on her cardio vascular system than the others. But, I don't find her suspect at all. She skiis in the way most adapted to her physique.

If the Norwegians were on drugs, I would have expected them to have used them on the latter stages on the Tour de Ski, where they really could have used some augmentation.

 

[meat puppet]

Is there a connection we should be worried about then? Or could this point to an all-NO doping network? The girls were eerily dominant last season... One looking like a freight train, the other like a stick figure on well, amphetamie. I'm totally in love with the latter, though...

Nothing precise about any precise connections, obviously. But even if they had stone grinded skis, dominating from the early EPO years on with practically no one getting popped continues to raise some eyebrows and questions. So let's just say it's kinda funny that there is an immediate reaction from the skiers. Wasn't the whole thing about cycling, anyway?

Skimming thru Norwegian news sites, it seems that the Kjargaard story has got some attention and perhaps some of that attention will trickle down to other endurance sports as well. Hence the wording damage control in my OP. In Finland, as one might imagine, the story has gotten some spin, too. Kari-Pekka Kyrö for one made a sniding remark that this is like a small pimple being bursted. The implication being that there has been a nationwide programme all along. Predicts that no positives will come from XC skiing, tho.

Maybe our on-site reporters are better informed?

 

[goggalor]

Kari-Pekka Kyrö! Haven't heard that name since... last year. I guess that means the XC season is nearing.

 

[meat puppet]

Kari-Pekka Kyrö! Haven't heard that name since... last year. I guess that means the XC season is nearing.

Indeed. Emerges like the third of the seasons!

 

[MrRoboto]

Even if they were doping side-by-side, a nationwide program sounds about as unlikely as Kari-Pekka Kyrö's bitterness.

And just so it's mentioned. While the norwegian male skiers were dominating along with the finnish, russian and italians in the 90's, norwegian cyclists were nowhere to be seen. The possible exception might be Dag Otto Lauritzen, but what he did was still pretty insignificant. And Kjærgaard's story fits with that he did absolutely nothing while on TMV -- something that clearly changed when he changed team to Chicky World.

And the incident absolutely makes people question other athletes. But nobody dares to publicly point fingers at XC heroes.

The pic of Skofterud and Steira was some stupid twitter pic btw (with the text 100% clean or something like that). They would probably have posted it anyway.

 

[ToreBear]

Nothing precise about any precise connections, obviously. But even if they had stone grinded skis, dominating from the early EPO years on with practically no one getting popped continues to raise some eyebrows and questions. So let's just say it's kinda funny that there is an immediate reaction from the skiers. Wasn't the whole thing about cycling, anyway?

Skimming thru Norwegian news sites, it seems that the Kjargaard story has got some attention and perhaps some of that attention will trickle down to other endurance sports as well. Hence the wording damage control in my OP. In Finland, as one might imagine, the story has gotten some spin, too. Kari-Pekka Kyrö for one made a sniding remark that this is like a small pimple being bursted. The implication being that there has been a nationwide programme all along. Predicts that no positives will come from XC skiing, tho.

Maybe our on-site reporters are better informed?

Dominant?

Personally I would think competitive would be a more sensible description.

On the news coverage. There was a studio discussion yeasterday with a guy from Norwegian Anti Doping and I seem to remember someone from the ski association. Though the substance of the discussion was rather uninteresting.

There has also been reports from skiers.

As for the girls picture. If that is a pr move in regards damage control, we better not have any crisis in the future.

On Kari-Pekka Kyrö he has for years been pointing at the Norwegians. Probably part of him justifying doping in the past was that the Norwegians must have been doing it. 10-15 years later, and still nothing. He is getting frustrated poor man and doesn't want to admit that his team were cheating clean athletes and not dirty athletes.

 

[the sceptic]

Kyrö is just a bitter hater. Everyone knows norwegians never dope

 

[neineinei]

http://sport.aftenposten.no/sport/article255092.ece

IOC didn't want to test blood during 1994 Olympics. The Norwegian Olympic Comittee and FIS was allowed to do testing, FIS had been testing blood since 1989, and trying to make IOC do the same for five years. However, IOC didn't allow them to store the samples for re-testing, and an official from IOC stod by when the tests was analyzied and made sure that every bloodsample was disposed of after it had been analyzed.

 

[TomasC]

I also think we will see some girls from other countries being noticed as having made big improvements, probably surprising some, but not me.

So who's that? Come on.

 

[ToreBear]

So who's that? Come on.

I have great hopes for Anna Haag this season. But I'll tell of others I have hope for closer to the start of the season in the xc skiing thread outside of the clinic. My mind is elsewhere at the moment.

 

[ToreBear]

http://sport.aftenposten.no/sport/article255092.ece

IOC didn't want to test blood during 1994 Olympics. The Norwegian Olympic Comittee and FIS was allowed to do testing, FIS had been testing blood since 1989, and trying to make IOC do the same for five years. However, IOC didn't allow them to store the samples for re-testing, and an official from IOC stod by when the tests was analyzied and made sure that every bloodsample was disposed of after it had been analyzed.

Thanks! There is a lot of interesting information in that article. Seems Verbruggen was not the only one not taking doping seriously at that time.

If anyone has problems with sentences when using google translate, I'll be happy to help if you post the problematic sentences here.

 

[python]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/vintersport/skidor/article15644343.ab
(in swedish)

(translated)
bengt saltin, ‘…clearly, some national teams use epo, i know a tad too much’

he said this during the swedish team’s high-altitude camp in italy about 3 weeks ago. (for those unfamiliar, bengt was the anti-doping czar at fis and is a true pioneer of longitudinal blood studies and monitoring. he is now a consultant with the swedish team)

What nation(s) did he mean ?

the finns who have been rather quiet since the times revealed by kari-pekka kyrö ?
the russians who after a wave of the recent epo scandals have little to show except for their sprinters ?
the swiss whose single superstar cologna could hardly constitute a nation ?
the canadians whose kershaw and harvey moved up but are hardly a dominant nation ?
the americans who have been a non-factor for ever ?

could this be the norwegians ? nah, Charlotte Kalla (in another recent article in aftonbladet) went out of her way to praise the Norwegians for being very open and transparent with her, even sharing the video…)

btw, the article also describes the innovative high altitude approach used by the swedes for the first time. It involves monitoring not only the lactate but also around the clock oxygen saturation, even during their sleep. The goal was to determine optimum altitude for each skier allowing maximizing rbc production. saltin said that differences between the skier were significant. They also mentioned that northug checked into the same high-altitude hotel where the swedes were staying.

 

[blackcat]

the antipodes football code (australian rules) now doing their "altutude" in AZ, with the Keating 5, McCain, and Savings and Loans.

 

[Trond Vidar]

Yikes, it looks like someone photoshopped that arm onto Bjeorgen!

Supposedly Bjørgens mum looks the same.

Although, when looking at how XC-skiers train strenght these days it's no wonder that some get big.

This is retired Alsgaard, last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy9cm5NU_1M
afterwards he went straight out on a three hour double pole (just arms) rollerski-workout.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Saltin said something else I found interesting. He thinks altitude training in the off-season has no long lasting physiological benefits after returning to sea level. It's only meaningful in the weeks prior to a targeted event.

 

[Cloxxki]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/vintersport/skidor/article15644343.ab
(in swedish)

(translated)
bengt saltin, ‘…clearly, some national teams use epo, i know a tad too much’

he said this during the swedish team’s high-altitude camp in italy about 3 weeks ago. (for those unfamiliar, bengt was the anti-doping czar at fis and is a true pioneer of longitudinal blood studies and monitoring. he is now a consultant with the swedish team)

What nation(s) did he mean ?

the finns who have been rather quiet since the times revealed by kari-pekka kyrö ?
the russians who after a wave of the recent epo scandals have little to show except for their sprinters ?
the swiss whose single superstar cologna could hardly constitute a nation ?
the canadians whose kershaw and harvey moved up but are hardly a dominant nation ?
the americans who have been a non-factor for ever ?

could this be the norwegians ? nah, Charlotte Kalla (in another recent article in aftonbladet) went out of her way to praise the Norwegians for being very open and transparent with her, even sharing the video…)

btw, the article also describes the innovative high altitude approach used by the swedes for the first time. It involves monitoring not only the lactate but also around the clock oxygen saturation, even during their sleep. The goal was to determine optimum altitude for each skier allowing maximizing rbc production. saltin said that differences between the skier were significant. They also mentioned that northug checked into the same high-altitude hotel where the swedes were staying.

@Python,
Please offer your view on high-altitude training. Which % do you offer to both the credible science side and the BS Propaganda side of that?
Mine: 30/70.
Cyclists have Tenerife, Skier have even harder to reach glaciers. Why would we nod frantically when skiers talk about altitude?
Cologna comes from Davos (1600m village), Kenya use their high-altitude youth as a reason for their speed. The latter are being caught with EPO more and more.

 

[python]

@Python,
Please offer your view on high-altitude training. Which % do you offer to both the credible science side and the BS Propaganda side of that?
Mine: 30/70.

before i express my opinion, i’d separate the 2 issues - the credible science and the propaganda - because they are not mutually exclusive …

first, the altitude training and simulation, particularly the technique termed live high/train low, is solid enough and is supported by credible science. The key is that the athlete has to be a responder. this is a scientific fact - many are poor responders. true enough, a good responder regardless of the endurance sport, can gain a couple percentage points. unlike with the synthetic epo, this gain is predictable and relatively small b/c it is limited by the natural physiologic feedback mechanism. a plausible and realistic assumption would be an increase in total haemoglobin mass of less than 5% (recall, that ashenden concluded that up to 10% increase was undetectable by blood passport when epo was micro-dosed)

then, as you put it, there is the bs propaganda side…that is, when an athlete and/or his coach would try to use the high altitude concept to cover up own blood doping.

we know for a fact, this happened many times. i described some place a couple of ways how a sophisticated and proven cheater like armstrong was misusing high-altitude simulation to mask blood doping. it would be beyond silly to assume that the top xc skiers and their doping advisers live in isolation…

what percentage of the top xc skiers are currently masking blood doping ?

though i am absolutely sure the cheating is taking place, an honest answer is i don’t know.

the best anyone can do is listen to credible, informed insiders like saltin and damsgaard whilst not taking everything they say as a gospel. for example, damsgaard is on record - and he’s been inside both sports - that doping in xc skiing is far less sophisticated than in cycling. he could be right but he said this several years back before some xc ski teams started to bring altitude simulating equipment to races...

that might be so, but i don’t exclude (though id give it a very remote probability) that the 77 y. o. impeccable authority like saltin, perhaps even unwittingly, was being misused to cover up a sophisticated doping scheme.

after all, we don’t even have to search hard to realize that the very similar situation almost happened with another doping and anti-doping champs - armstrong and catlin. i mean the texan's return in 2009 and dragging an authority no less than catlin to cover up his now proven blood doping in 2009.

are the Norwegians as arrogant and brazen ? speaking from personal cultural and ethnic experience - absolutely not!!

but then, i also would never imagine that breivik could ever happen in norway…

 

[Cloxxki]

Thanks Python.

But then there are the Swedes. Even less arrogant/brazen.
Norwegians openly look for fights with them, and the Swedes just reply kindly.

Also, the top swedes have been KILLED at the ends of races by Norwegians of late. Totally destroyed. Different league, multiple leagues apart. That's not a glacier workout of difference. And it was not just Northug against one Swede with a particularly mediocre finish.
Should the Swedes get better finish this season, I'll likely be inclined to think they hopped along on the bandwagon. You can't say the Swedes are being lazy or unskilled. But see how they are out-skied the past few years. I'd not come back after such defeat, when I was morally clean.

 

[neineinei]

The Finnish documentary "Sinivalkoinen valhe" will be shown on Norwegian TV (NRK) on Saturday, where it is called "When heroes lie". When it premiered in Finland in September the Norwegian press picked up on the Juha Mieto story, but there were almost no mention of the Norwegian content.
As mentioned before in this thread Dr. Harald Oftebro is interviewed in the film (he now says there has been some fancy editing of his statements), but there is also an anonymous source, who is introduced as someone who played a key role in Norwegian cross country skiing in the 90's. And he says there were as much doping in Norway as there were in Finland.

http://www.nrk.no/sport/hevder-nordmenn-dopet-seg-1.8406717 (Norwegian)
http://translate.google.no/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http://www.nrk.no/sport/hevder-nordmenn-dopet-seg-1.8406717 Google translate

The story was presented on the evening news today, and there were interviews with various ppl from the era who were aghast and said they needed the name of the source. The Director-General of the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation, Hans-Tore Bjerkaas, has now given an interview where he says he knows who the source is and that the source is quoted correctly and that the source is "relevant".

 

[the sceptic]

Very interesting. If that source is Norwegian and legitimate, then its going to be hard to dismiss him as a bitter and jealous hater.

 

[maltiv]

Very interesting. If that source is Norwegian and legitimate, then its going to be hard to dismiss him as a bitter and jealous hater.

That's exactly what most people are doing on various Norwegian forums right now. They're using precisely the same arguments as Armstrong did..."he's just jealous, the Finns are bitter and have no credibility" etc. Also some threats against the source in true Armstrong-style.

 

[Velo1ticker]

Very interesting. If that source is Norwegian and legitimate, then its going to be hard to dismiss him as a bitter and jealous hater.

Heard the Finnish claims for years (first after 1984 Olympics and increasingly after they themselves were caught repeatedly). Last time around: If... , and now: If..! If they got some new information I (everyone) would like to know. Your statement has been valid for more than a couple of decades and so what? Why are you not interested in those you and everyone else know are guilty and why repeat old stories as it was new?

 

[romnom]

Heard the Finnish claims for years (first after 1984 Olympics and increasingly after they themselves were caught repeatedly). Last time around: If... , and now: If..! If they got some new information I (everyone) would like to know. Your statement has been valid for more than a couple of decades and so what? Why are you not interested in those you and everyone else know are guilty and why repeat old stories as it was new?

Do you really want to know though? I mean the Finns have it easy, they know their history is dirty. They didn't really know until it was made painfully obvious by a huge scandal. Even after that there are plenty of people who really don't want to hear more about it and the discussions around the subject seem anything but honest. No point digging up old dirt and so on. Now the issue with the latest 'Finnish claims' that seem to annoy you is that they aren't really about Norwegians. It's for most parts the silly Finns digging into their own dirt and trying to put what they find into context. If you don't like it, dismiss it. I wouldn't expect a documentary into the history of doping in Finland to have much insight into Norwegian sports. It's really up to the Norwegians to figure it out for themselves if you want a reliable source and maybe they already have and there's nothing to worry about.

I do know that trying to label the current 'Finnish claims' as something that has been around for almost 30 years is pure BS. It sounds very much like someone who prefers to know there is nothing to worry about rather than dig too deep into the issues. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that to be honest.