Doping in XC skiing

Page 50 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Apr 7, 2011
4,148
0
0
Discgear said:
Good and valid points. If I may stet into your and Dukoff's discussion, one parameter not discussed is skiing technique. It seems to be consensus that the Norwegians were late adopters of the skating technique. Alsgaard though, was a very good skate technician, especially later in his career. Dählie and Ulvang was much more about the raw power.

Despite his technical shortcomings Dählie took 8 medals in the Skate discipin, and if you also count combined pursuit, where half the distance is in skate, you can add another 5 medals in skate during the 90s.

Gold 1992 Albertville 50 km Skate
Gold 1998 i Nagano 50 km Skate
Silver 1994 i Lillehammer 30 km Skate
Gold 1991 Val di Fiemme 15 km Skate
Silver 1995 Thunder Bay 50 km Skate
Silver 1997 Trondheim 30 km Skate
Bronze 1993 Falun 50 km Skate
Bronze 1999 Ramsau 30 km SKate

Gold 1992 i Albertville 15 km combined pursuit
Gold 1992 i Albertville 15 km combined pursuit
Silver 1998 i Nagano 15 km combined pursuit
Gold 1993 Falun 25 km combined pursuit
Gold 1997 Trondheim 25 km combined pursuit

Torgny Mogren was a very good skater, as were most of the swedes, that is actually one major explanation to the Swedish success in the late 80s. American Bill Koch invented the technique but the Swedes were early dopters.

This video is very revealing both in terms of glide and technique from WC Falun 1993, the last individual medal for the Swedes in the 90s (except Ordinas bronze in 1995 which was probably fishy). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi4tscwk9P0

I’ve made time marks, it's from the same section of the race so you could look at the glide and the technique.

Mogren 2,02 (66)
De Zolt (67) 5.20
Smirnov (69) 5,55
Dählie (78) Ulvang (77) and Mühlegg (75) 8.00
The last guy in that quartet is Jan Ottosson, the worst skater in the Swedish team.

This clip is before the last lap when Dählie is still in the lead and most skiers don’t show much fatigue, so I guess it’s a quite fair example of both glide and skating technique. Enjoy!
Ver interesting, thakns!
 
Bavarianrider said:
The question is, how was a "clean" Elofson able to beat an obviously juiced Mühleggg? I really want a swedisch guy to answer that question!
Difficult for me to say, I don't know if Elofsson was clean. He's less fishy than most others from the same era though, that's for sure.
 
Mar 4, 2013
401
0
0
Breaking News.

Today a chronicle was published in Norwegian newspaper Verdens Gang written by prof. Bengt Saltin and Danish scientist and doping hunter Jakob Mørkeberg. It’s not published online but according to reports in the newspapers, the argumentation is very harsh against the Norwegians during the 90s.
http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/langrenn/artikkel.php?artid=10108035

Two Quotes: [my translation]
Cross-Country skiers are not shaped in a different way than cyclists.
The evidence is so strong that even the Norwegians have to realize what was going on.


Saltin was evidently the central person of the Freiburg Investigation, which exposed Riis and Ulrich and his arguments are obviously based on his experiences from that investigation, comparing it with what he has seen from cross-country skiing.

It would be appreciated if someone could make the chronicle available in this forum.
 
Mar 4, 2013
401
0
0
In the following official denial from the Norwegian Ski Federation that ToreBear linked, there are som revealing facts about Bjørn Dæhlie. Notice that according to SVT, they asked the following question in making of Uppdrag Granskning: “if the blood values on Bjørn Dæhlie are not correct, what are his correct values? They didn’t get any answers. I have picked out some parts of the denials which are worth commenting. http://www.skiaktiv.no/artikkel/3814/ingen-unaturlig-hoeye-blodverdier-hos-norske-langrennsloepere.html

Natural training behaviors before a championship, permits a raise of HB- Values from 15 to a value 17 during a championship. This is confirmed by FIS doping expert Rasmus Damsgaard.

Further on Norwegian Ski-federations federation claims following:

Concerning Bjørn Dæhlie, it’s not un-normal with 17.5 after a race, measured with Hemocue equipment and the indifferences that could follow with this method. Bjørn Dæhlie has always had high natural values. When arriving to Tunder Bay in 1995 his values were over 16.

This statement is peculiar since they have already denied that Bjørn Dæhlie was among those medalists with measured high blood values in Thunder Bay.
What I understand all those arguments are smashed by Saltin and Mørkeberg in yesterdays chronicle.

ToreBear linked also the following article which is a letter to SVT from lawyers’ representing Norwegian Ski Federation, Bjørn Dahlie, Vegard Ulvang, Marit Mikkelsplass and Erling Jevne http://www.skiaktiv.no/artikkel/3817/nsfs-advokatbrev-til-sveriges-televisjon.html

Tests done with Hemocue means soruce of error up to 2.0 gr per 100 ml and Hemocue consistently produce high values.
As mentioned before, those procedures with Hemocue tests could give a natural explanation to allt the tests that concerns Norwegian Ski Federation and others mentioned in the programme


What I understand those arguments are totally smashed by Saltin and Mørkeberg in yesterday’s chronicle. Then the lawyers point to this statement

In the meeting the 21st of February 2013 SVT was informed by FIS expert in doping M.D, PhD Rasmus Damsgaard the following:

For exampel, if they had a tough training period up to one month, three weeks, two weeks before and then start to go down in intensity…. (interruptions) ….. You go from, I say you have to remember when speaking about this. You have an intense training period. Then you take a period with different and less training. When you train intense, the blood value will drop markedly. Then you hold up with the intense traing and it will have a steep rise. So, in the period before the championship you will always experience, I don’t say it’s blood doping, I only say that you will experience a rise …. (interruptions)……It can be around 2 g per deciliter from 15 to 17. We’ve seen that many times.


To use this quote as a main argument for a legal action against SVT is really hilarious, since what Damsgaard really says that in hard training the values will go down, and when going into light training the values will go back to normal. By the way Damsgaard’s credibility already got a severe hit by Jakob Mørkeberg 4 years ago in this article. http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated

The article by Mørkeberg and Saltin in Verdens Gang yesterday, is pure dynamite since it’s obviously clear that it was a common manipulation of blood within the Norwegian Ski team in the 90s.
It can be no doubt - with all those confusing statements and outburst from different officials in FIS and in the Norwegian Ski Federation - that the problem goes deep.

Saltin says following to Verdens Gang yesterday:

-The most important thing for us is not if single athletes have been doping, but to know if the leaders, trainers and doctors played a part in this.

I think that this is the key to understand why Saltin is going out with such rage. Being a central figure of the Freiburg Investigation exposing the Telekom Team, it must have been quite frustrating to realize that his predecessor in FIS was heavily involved in hiding (or not noticing) doping in other top cycle teams, as being their anti-doping expert. Since now Saltin is supported by Jakob Mørkeberg I can’t see it will be possibly for the Norwegian Ski Federation to not start revealing what was or is going on.
 
Apr 4, 2010
1,979
0
0
Bavarianrider said:
The question is, how was a "clean" Elofson able to beat an obviously juiced Mühleggg? I really want a swedisch guy to answer that question!
You have never been competitive in endurance sports, have you?

How could a clean Elofsson beat a doped up fraud like Mühleggg?

Easy, he was superior in every sense. He was wastly superior talent wise as far as V02 MAX goes. The guy measured 88 when he was 20! Compare that to the pro cyclist, runners, swimmers and xc-skiers today. How many do you think can match that?!

Add to that his superior technic. Per was considered to have, perhaps, the best skiing technic of all time. Mühlegg had a crappy technic and it is clear for anyone who knows a thing or two about skiing that he would not have been a contender if he was clean. The guy was so inefficient only dope could make him competitive.

With regards to the skis Per was most likely superior even in that regard. Sweden has a long tradition of XC-sking and they had a much bigger and more experienced stab for waxing skis. In fact, Per had Perry Olsson has his serviceman and he is regarded as one of the best, if not, the best.

Per also trained like a mad man. This is no joke, he was totaly insane even compared to the rest of the swedish ski team. Dæhlie himself spoke about this, since Per was so extreme. It was this who eventually broke his body. He trained to hard for too long in order to keep up with cheater like Mühlegg, Myllylä, Botvinov, Hoffmann and others.

And you argumentation suggests you know nothing about endurance and recovery. Elofsson beat Mühlegg in the first shorter races were he was in top shape at the start of the Championships. Later when Mühlegg won the 50KM Per was obviously worn out since he had no dope to help him recover as Mühlegg had.

As for Mühleggs performance in the 30KM in 2002 that was a total different thing. It was a mass start not an individual start like in the Lathis 50K. Furthermore it was the first race so most was in top shape (Per wasn't thought) and he totally trashed everyone like none ever had before. And he did it using an awful technic. The guy had access to NESP which was so new it was not yet on the banned substance list.

So to sum it up. Per beat Mühlegg because he was more talented, had a superior technic and better skis. This idea that you can't beat a doper is so far fetched is't crazy and it's only something people who never have competed in endurance sports throws around.

However, it's hard to to it on a consistent basis year in and year out and the longer the races gets, the more advantages the cheater has. You also have to calculate for the difference in skiing technic which is a crucial. Cycling doesn't have that aspect since you are locked in to the pedals.
 
Apr 7, 2011
4,148
0
0
Walkman said:
You have never been competitive in endurance sports, have you?
Well i admit, i was never the most talented one, nor was i suspecious of being a tarining monster.

Nevertheless, i competed a little bit and can be proud to have a Bavarian team title on my palmares. (I admit that it was not because of me but my teammates :D)
But i think i do no a litle bit about the sport.
And i guess unlike you i've actually seen Mühlegg train.
Mühlegg certainly was a freak, but he isn't a bad person at all. It's just unfair when he gets all the blame when a majority of the Rest was doing similar things
 
May 18, 2010
366
0
0
Bavarian troll. Take a look at any video of Mühlegg. His technique even stands out against the average competitive skier. So awkward, rough and ineffective.

Has Per Elofssons blood values from his competitive years been published anywhere? I think I saw some hb values of 15.x somewhere for him but I'm not sure. The arguments defending Elofsson look similar to those pro Dählie with the exception that Dählies competitive hb values are through the roof with no arguments of a genetic predisposition for elevated hb.
 
May 20, 2010
28
0
0
Shardi said:
Has Per Elofssons blood values from his competitive years been published anywhere? I think I saw some hb values of 15.x somewhere for him but I'm not sure. The arguments defending Elofsson look similar to those pro Dählie with the exception that Dählies competitive hb values are through the roof with no arguments of a genetic predisposition for elevated hb.
He's said his average was around 15, and that it rarely changed much from that (when he was at normal fluid balance at sea level).

https://blogg.svt.se/vinterstudion/2013/02/fram-med-siffrorna-pa-bordet/

Jag har under alla mina år av träning på naturlig höghöjd och vistelse i bla mitt eget höghöjdsrum inte haft någon tydlig indikation på förhöjning av mitt HB-värde, utan har legat rätt opåverkat kring ett medelvärde på 150 sett över tid när jag kommit ner och åter igen återfått normal vätskebalans.
Sen är vi ju olika men jag har väldigt svårt att se att någon genom normal höghöjdsträning och med standardiserade tester både före och efter en höghöjsuppladdning (som kan ske under en längre period) på naturlig väg höjt sitt HB-värde upp emot och över 20 enheter (200).
Det upplägget är jag väldigt nyfiken att få ta del utav !
Google translate.
I have in all my years of training in altitude and stay in my own high-altitude room had no clear indication of the elevation of my HB value, but remained unaffected right around an average of 150 seen over time when I come down and regained normal fluid balance.
Then we are different but I find it very difficult to see someone through normal altitude training and standardized tests both before and after a high-altitude charging (which can be done over a longer period) naturally raise its HB-value up to and over 20 units (200).
That approach I'm very curious to take part of!
 
Apr 4, 2010
1,979
0
0
Bavarianrider said:
By calling Mühlegg a fraud you only proof that you know nothing about the sport.
Mühlegg dominated at the Junior Level, won World Championchips and so on. He was insanely gifted and at the beginnings of the 90es veryone thought he'd turn a world class immidatley
Anyone who knows anything about cross country skiing will tell you that
Junior results means nothing. I personally know a couple of medalists from junior world championships and none of the are dominating today. Projected results are not results.

Bavarianrider said:
Mühlegg worked as hard as anyone. Claiming that he didn't work as hard as a guy like Elofson is a complete joke, sorrry.
Or not. You mean that everybody that says Elofsson trained like crazy are lying? The whole swedish team was lying? As was the norwegians? Everyone was lying to cover up Elofsson's doping?

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.html?sector=CC&competitorid=41917&type=result&category=WC&season=ALL&sort=&discipline=ALL&position=&place=&Submit=Search&rec_start=0&limit=100

The guy was mediocre until 1999/2000 when he joined Spain. That's a coincidence.:rolleyes:

Bavarianrider said:
In the 90es Mühlegg suffered from the same problems that the swedish guys suffered and hece couldn't beat the Norwegians, Russians and Italians.
Actually, Mogren dominated Mühlegg until 1996 when he started to decline. But wait! Did he dope too?! :eek:

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.html?sector=CC&competitorid=40940&type=result&category=WC&season=ALL&sort=&discipline=ALL&position=&place=&Submit=Search&rec_start=0&limit=100

Bavarianrider said:
Obviously when he joined at teh time he joined Spain, something changed and he was on Top of the game.
EPO, blood doping, HGH, cortisone and later NESP. Yeah, something probably happened.

Bavarianrider said:
Could a clean Mühlegg have beaten a clean Elofson. On a good dya, hell ya.
Well, everything can happen but in a race were both are in top form per beats Mühlegg 100 times of 100. Just as Cav would beat Basso in a sprint 100 times out of 100.

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.html?sector=CC&competitorid=15494&raceid=927

Mühlegg, at 26 yearsof age (around his physical prime) beat a 19 year old Elofsson in his first world cup with 20 seconds. Were was Mühlegg's great talent now?!

Bavarianrider said:
Could a clean Elofson beat a juiced up Mühlegg.
No, simply, no. Believe it or not, Elofson was just a human being, too.
So no clean athlete can ever beat a doped one? Could you care to back up that claim with some facts?

Bavarianrider said:
Fact of the matter is, though, Elofson had suceess against proofen EPO and Blood doping users. Many of them superb athletes themselves. It's simply physically impossible for any human being to beat those guys while being totally clean yourself. If you don't realise this i can not help you.
Who? Myllyllä, Isometsä, Hoffmann, Botvinov, Mühlegg? None of them were talented skiers, they were DOPERS. You think it's a coincidence that all of them got caught? That Elofsson had to quit because of the fact that his body could not take it anymore?

Bavarianrider said:
Your argumentation is simply the excact same one Lance Armstrong used all the time, maybe that should ring a bell for you.
No, actually it's more like Lemond. Elofsson has the numbers to back it up and his opponents does not. Furthermore they all got caught and their trajectory are in many cases highly unnatural.
 
Apr 4, 2010
1,979
0
0
Shardi said:
Bavarian troll. Take a look at any video of Mühlegg. His technique even stands out against the average competitive skier. So awkward, rough and ineffective.

Has Per Elofssons blood values from his competitive years been published anywhere? I think I saw some hb values of 15.x somewhere for him but I'm not sure. The arguments defending Elofsson look similar to those pro Dählie with the exception that Dählies competitive hb values are through the roof with no arguments of a genetic predisposition for elevated hb.
The highest swedish value just before 2001 World Championships was 15.6. So he was no higher than that. I can see if I can get you a source.
 
Apr 7, 2011
4,148
0
0
Shardi said:
Bavarian troll. Take a look at any video of Mühlegg. His technique even stands out against the average competitive skier. So awkward, rough and ineffective.

Has Per Elofssons blood values from his competitive years been published anywhere? I think I saw some hb values of 15.x somewhere for him but I'm not sure. The arguments defending Elofsson look similar to those pro Dählie with the exception that Dählies competitive hb values are through the roof with no arguments of a genetic predisposition for elevated hb.
Mühlegg had a power style. Not the most beautiful one, not as good a sElofson, of course, but it wasn't that inefficient. It suited his skill set.
It's not like Daelies style looked that much better.
 
Apr 7, 2011
4,148
0
0
Walkman said:
Junior results means nothing. I personally know a couple of medalists from junior world championships and none of the are dominating today. Projected results are not results.

They do show if someone had talent or not


Or not. You mean that everybody that says Elofsson trained like crazy are lying? The whole swedish team was lying? As was the norwegians? Everyone was lying to cover up Elofsson's doping?

Of course i don'd doubt Elofson worked hard. But Mühlegg wasn't working any less.

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.html?sector=CC&competitorid=41917&type=result&category=WC&season=ALL&sort=&discipline=ALL&position=&place=&Submit=Search&rec_start=0&limit=100

The guy was mediocre until 1999/2000 when he joined Spain. That's a coincidence.:rolleyes:

He started doing what the Russian, Italiens, Finns, Norwegians were doing too


EPO, blood doping, HGH, cortisone and later NESP. Yeah, something probably happened.



Well, everything can happen but in a race were both are in top form per beats Mühlegg 100 times of 100. Just as Cav would beat Basso in a sprint 100 times out of 100.

This is just pure ignorance and fanboy talk. Saying your guy is god while another one is a bum.

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.html?sector=CC&competitorid=15494&raceid=927

Mühlegg, at 26 yearsof age (around his physical prime) beat a 19 year old Elofsson in his first world cup with 20 seconds. Were was Mühlegg's great talent now?!

I never claimed Mühlegg was more gifted than Elofson


So no clean athlete can ever beat a doped one? Could you care to back up that claim with some facts?



Who? Myllyllä, Isometsä, Hoffmann, Botvinov, Mühlegg? None of them were talented skiers, they were DOPERS. You think it's a coincidence that all of them got caught? That Elofsson had to quit because of the fact that his body could not take it anymore?

All of them were talented. If you were not talented you could dope as much as you want.
Please that's pure ignorance, only Elofson was talented all others were bums:rolleyes:
 
Apr 4, 2010
1,979
0
0
Bavarianrider said:
Walkman said:
Junior results means nothing. I personally know a couple of medalists from junior world championships and none of the are dominating today. Projected results are not results.

They do show if someone had talent or not


Or not. You mean that everybody that says Elofsson trained like crazy are lying? The whole swedish team was lying? As was the norwegians? Everyone was lying to cover up Elofsson's doping?

Of course i don'd doubt Elofson worked hard. But Mühlegg wasn't working any less.

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.html?sector=CC&competitorid=41917&type=result&category=WC&season=ALL&sort=&discipline=ALL&position=&place=&Submit=Search&rec_start=0&limit=100

The guy was mediocre until 1999/2000 when he joined Spain. That's a coincidence.:rolleyes:

He started doing what the Russian, Italiens, Finns, Norwegians were doing too


EPO, blood doping, HGH, cortisone and later NESP. Yeah, something probably happened.



Well, everything can happen but in a race were both are in top form per beats Mühlegg 100 times of 100. Just as Cav would beat Basso in a sprint 100 times out of 100.

This is just pure ignorance and fanboy talk. Saying your guy is god while another one is a bum.

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.html?sector=CC&competitorid=15494&raceid=927

Mühlegg, at 26 yearsof age (around his physical prime) beat a 19 year old Elofsson in his first world cup with 20 seconds. Were was Mühlegg's great talent now?!

I never claimed Mühlegg was more gifted than Elofson


So no clean athlete can ever beat a doped one? Could you care to back up that claim with some facts?



Who? Myllyllä, Isometsä, Hoffmann, Botvinov, Mühlegg? None of them were talented skiers, they were DOPERS. You think it's a coincidence that all of them got caught? That Elofsson had to quit because of the fact that his body could not take it anymore?

All of them were talented. If you were not talented you could dope as much as you want.
Please that's pure ignorance, only Elofson was talented all others were bums:rolleyes:
Learn to use the quote function please. That is totally unreadable.
 
Mar 19, 2009
2,235
0
0
Junior World Champs not making true to promise among seniors might largely be a doping/clean division. Especially if the Junior worlds are easier to win clean, which I think we all agree and certainly hope to be the case.
 
Mar 4, 2013
401
0
0
Yesterday morning Thor's hammer did hit Norway, when two of the foremost authorities on doping in the world, prof. Saltin and dr. Mørkeberg made it painfully clear that Norway was doping during the 90s.

In the forum last two weeks that has been quite a few signatures that has in every possible way made an argument about how clean the Norwegian Cross-Country skiing is and has always been especially signatures blueskies, ToreBear and dukoff. After the devastating article was published they have been silent, as has Norwegian media. Is everyone living in total denial?

I think it is somewhat bizarre, after the shocking revalations in the chronicle, that the discussion now has turned into quarrel about how Per Elofsson could beat doped Johan Mühlegg in 2001. As I said earlier:

I don't think it's fair to pick out a single race in Cross Country skiing and make conclusions. In my opinion, it's not valid to make an argument based on one occasion in the glide discussion and it's not fair to make an argument who was doped or not by picking out a single race in a Championship. There is simply to many variables to consider.
The Swedes constantly underperformed in championships going back as long as 1991 which could be a sign that they were bad dopers or actually – how weird it might sound, were clean. However, in 2006, Norway made a terrible Winter Olympics with only 3 silvers and 1 bronze. Sweden made the best Olympics for decades with 3 golds and 2 bronze (all medals in sprint except a bronze in relay). Jakob Mørkeberg one week ago described 2006 Olympics as a dirty one in Country Skiing, with a lot of skiers showing high blood values. I guess the Swedes also have to look into what has been going on.

It would really be interesting to hear a moderate signature like Trond Vidar, comment on the chronicle from yesterday’s Verdens Gang.
 
Apr 7, 2011
4,148
0
0
Cloxxki said:
Junior World Champs not making true to promise among seniors might largely be a doping/clean division. Especially if the Junior worlds are easier to win clean, which I think we all agree and certainly hope to be the case.
Of course.
But when you win world junirs, it at least shows that you are not a bum without talent. That's my point.
 
Jun 25, 2009
201
0
0
Discgear said:
Yesterday morning Thor's hammer did hit Norway, when two of the foremost authorities on doping in the world, prof. Saltin and dr. Mørkeberg made it painfully clear that Norway was doping during the 90s.

In the forum last two weeks that has been quite a few signatures that has in every possible way made an argument about how clean the Norwegian Cross- Country skiing is and has always been especially signatures blueskies, ToreBear and dukoff. After the devastating article was published it has been silent, as has Norwegian media. Is everyone living in total denial?

I think it is somewhat bizarre, after the shocking revalations in the chronicle, that the discussion now has turned into quarrel about how Per Elofsson could beat doped Johan Mühlegg in 2001. As I said earlier:



The Swedes constantly underperformed in championships going back as long as 1991 which could be a sign that they were bad dopers or actually – how weird it might sound, were clean. However, in 2006, Norway made a terrible Winter Olympics with only 3 silvers and 1 bronze. Sweden made the best Olympics for decades with 3 golds and 2 bronze (all medals in sprint except a bronze in relay). However Jakob Mørkeberg one week ago described 2006 Olympics as a dirty one in Country Skiing, with a lot of skiers showing high blood values. I guess the Swedes also have to look into what has been going on.

It would really be interesting to hear a moderate signature like Trond Vidar, comment on the chronicle from yesterday’s Verdens Gang.
I would love to, anyone have the link to the chronicle? I never pick up the paper version, and can't find it online. I have not read it yet.
 
Sep 25, 2009
6,983
0
0
a couple of quick comments on saltin and damsgaard... their latest comments on doping in the 90s seem to be drifting further and further apart. as a long-time watcher of the two and being formerly involved in anti-doping, this does not surprise me. here's why.

i probably read all of their published scientific works and i carefully watched their roles as anti-doping administrators. first of all, there can be little doubt of their competence. but i have noticed several times a huge difference in their styles.

while both i believe are ethnic danes , the younger one (damsgaard), somewhat atypical for a dane, is much louder and is almost flamboyant compared to the old-style saltin. i will not question damsgaard integrity (as some tend to do having in mind his activities re, riis's team and his role with astana), but i have noticed a rather inconsistent scientific standard he used on several occasions when asked to throw his weight around.

for instance, he strongly criticized wada's epo detection criteria as being too conservative while being rather 'un-conservative' when standing up for a certain blood doping claudia pechstein. interestingly, it was damsgaard and no one else, that told bryuneel to fire gusev for blood doping (we now know that case ended up with great embarrassment after the cas dismissed the evidence and ordered the hog to pay). curiously, gusev may very well was a doper, but the same damsgaard did not see a reason to fire anyone else on the team full of blood dopers !

i could go on, but the above examples speak for themselves. at the same time, i never heard saltin - until after his retirement - to come out with strong opinions or being that controversial. as to saltin's integrity or having a special reason to throw a stone at his nordic neighbours, i simply never heard one and can't see one. he may have gotten old and inflexible, he may even not seeing something important, but i very much doubt he is being political or 'convenient' as damsgaard may on occasion been.
 
Mar 4, 2013
401
0
0
python said:
a couple of quick comments on saltin and damsgaard... their latest comments on doping in the 90s seem to be drifting further and further apart. as a long-time watcher of the two and being formerly involved in anti-doping, this does not surprise me. here's why.

i probably read all of their published scientific works and i carefully watched their roles as anti-doping administrators. first of all, there can be little doubt of their competence. but i have noticed several times a huge difference in their styles.

while both i believe are ethnic danes , the younger one (damsgaard), somewhat atypical for a dane, is much louder and is almost flamboyant compared to the old-style saltin. i will not question damsgaard integrity (as some tend to do having in mind his activities re, riis's team and his role with astana), but i have noticed a rather inconsistent scientific standard he used on several occasions when asked to throw his weight around.

for instance, he strongly criticized wada's epo detection criteria as being too conservative while being rather 'un-conservative' when standing up for a certain blood doping claudia pechstein. interestingly, it was damsgaard and no one else, that told bryuneel to fire gusev for blood doping (we now know that case ended up with great embarrassment after the cas dismissed the evidence and ordered the hog to pay). curiously, gusev may very well was a doper, but the same damsgaard did not see a reason to fire anyone else on the team full of blood dopers !

i could go on, but the above examples speak for themselves. at the same time, i never heard saltin - until after his retirement - to come out with strong opinions or being that controversial. as to saltin's integrity or having a special reason to throw a stone at his nordic neighbours, i simply never heard one and can't see one. he may have gotten old and inflexible, he may even not seeing something important, but i very much doubt he is being political or 'convenient' as damsgaard may on occasion been.
Very interesting read, thanks! Since Saltin wrote the chronicle together with Jakob Mørkeberg. Do you have any opinion about him?
 
Jun 25, 2009
201
0
0
olhell said:
The article is only available online through subscription service VGPluss.

Try this direct link: http://pluss.vg.no/a/1rxJRz9
To be honest, I didn't find the chronicle to bring much more substance to the issues that have been debated over the past weeks and months. I would have wished that they spent more time on backing up their proofs, and not blacklisting everyone from the nineties. As an example, the Norwegian doctor who produced a test with Hemocue a couple of weeks ago were literally mocked by Saltin ("he should do something else etc"), instead of refuting the high deviation numbers in Hemocue machines claimed by the doctor.

It seems that Saltin believes that since the mean value were so high, almost everyone who competed were doped. It just sounds unfair to those who raced clean. Now everyone is targeted. Maybe something is lost in translation. He also states that the values of 17+ indicates doping, but even I have tested at that value (on the same premises as the pros are training) without ever taking anything.

In my opinion we need more insight. More numbers, more detail, more context. When and if that comes along (unless confessions are made), I think this will be much easier to discuss with an open mind. Keep in mind that the Norwegian culture and perception is that we do not cheat, and that we hate dopers. It is a general mindset in our culture, and the fall from grace will be really high if the opposite is true. I can only speak for myself, but I recognise that same mindset in myself.
 
May 19, 2010
1,403
0
0
python said:
a couple of quick comments on saltin and damsgaard... their latest comments on doping in the 90s seem to be drifting further and further apart. as a long-time watcher of the two and being formerly involved in anti-doping, this does not surprise me. here's why.

i probably read all of their published scientific works and i carefully watched their roles as anti-doping administrators. first of all, there can be little doubt of their competence. but i have noticed several times a huge difference in their styles.

while both i believe are ethnic danes , the younger one (damsgaard), somewhat atypical for a dane, is much louder and is almost flamboyant compared to the old-style saltin. i will not question damsgaard integrity (as some tend to do having in mind his activities re, riis's team and his role with astana), but i have noticed a rather inconsistent scientific standard he used on several occasions when asked to throw his weight around.

...l
Bengt Saltin is Swedish, by birth, name and education. He has been living and working in Denmark since 1973 though.
 
May 20, 2010
28
0
0
olhell said:
The article is only available online through subscription service VGPluss.

Try this direct link: http://pluss.vg.no/a/1rxJRz9
Many thanks.

So what Saltin is essentially saying is that it’s impossible for an “average” male (with Hb values around 14-15,5) reaching “lasting” Hb values above 17 with the altitude training used by cross-country athletes. Seems like a very reasonable statement to me. However, his comments would be a lot less confusing if he didn’t lump everyone into the same group, and also commented on the people with higher than “average” Hb values.
 
Sep 25, 2009
6,983
0
0
Discgear said:
Very interesting read, thanks! Since Saltin wrote the chronicle together with Jakob Mørkeberg. Do you have any opinion about him?
i did not follow mørkeberg as closely as i followed saltin's and damsgaard's works. but his name can often be seen among the coauthors of almost a dozen studies on blood doping, including frequent partering with damsgaard and ashenden. armstrong tried to degenerate the young scientist when he was among the first who saw through the texan's tricky blood values...what matters is that mørkeberg was absolutely correct as was later confirmed by the usada evidence. i do not know enough about mørkeberg's activities outside the scientific research to comment.

however, i made another interesting observation regarding damsgaard's activities at fis as they relate to the 90's haemoglobin levels..

...as some already know, starting this year fis, unlike the uci, will no longer have fixed levels for haemoglobin that would automatically sideline an athlete for 5 days if exceeded. in stead, the new rule will rely on atypical individual blood profile similar to abnormal blood passport pickup by the software and only THEN passed over to an expert.

is this a good thing ? perhaps, but note, that there is no longer the upper haemoglobin limit - the very and only thing from the 90s so hotly discussed now.

also note in this regard the recent back-and-forth between ashenden and the uci. the meticulous scientist pointed out that the uci did not act on armstrong's suspicious blood values, to which the uci responded, 'it was the software which was not designed to detect this type of spikes'.

is fis's new rule (in which damsgaard took part no doubt), going to lead to overlooked blood doping, similar to armstrong's situation ? and why would they kick the old rule altogether ? was it because too many skiers have values in excess of 17 ?
 
May 23, 2010
414
0
0
python said:
i did not follow mørkeberg as closely as i followed saltin's and damsgaard's works. but his name can often be seen among the coauthors of almost a dozen studies on blood doping, including frequent partering with damsgaard and ashenden. armstrong tried to degenerate the young scientist when he was among the first who saw through the texan's tricky blood values...what matters is that mørkeberg was absolutely correct as was later confirmed by the usada evidence. i do not know enough about mørkeberg's activities outside the scientific research to comment.

however, i made another interesting observation regarding damsgaard's activities at fis as they relate to the 90's haemoglobin levels..

...as some already know, starting this year fis, unlike the uci, will no longer have fixed levels for haemoglobin that would automatically sideline an athlete for 5 days if exceeded. in stead, the new rule will rely on atypical individual blood profile similar to abnormal blood passport pickup by the software and only THEN passed over to an expert.

is this a good thing ? perhaps, but note, that there is no longer the upper haemoglobin limit - the very and only thing from the 90s so hotly discussed now.

also note in this regard the recent back-and-forth between ashenden and the uci. the meticulous scientist pointed out that the uci did not act on armstrong's suspicious blood values, to which the uci responded, 'it was the software which was not designed to detect this type of spikes'.

is fis's new rule (in which damsgaard took part no doubt), going to lead to overlooked blood doping, similar to armstrong's situation ? and why would they kick the old rule altogether ? was it because too many skiers have values in excess of 17 ?
Do you have a link that describes the new rule? Here's the old system that included the Hb limit and also a way to catch those that were below the Hb limit but showed an unusual blood profile based on the Off-score.

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/news/pressreleases/press-releases-2010/fact-sheet-start-prohibi.html
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY