Doping in XC skiing

[Shardi]

Soo.. Legkov on the 50km free... It might be total carnage out there given how he raced today. He took like 30-40 seconds on Johan Olsson on 10 km.

Is it still ski problems for norway, or are they just not there form-wise? Northug seemed to match up reasonably well against Hellner, alltho he was going full
trottle while Hellner just controlled the race.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Soo.. Legkov on the 50km free... It might be total carnage out there given how he raced today. He took like 30-40 seconds on Johan Olsson on 10 km.

Is it still ski problems for norway, or are they just not there form-wise? Northug seemed to match up reasonably well against Hellner, alltho he was going full
trottle while Hellner just controlled the race.

atleast in the classic part the Norwegian skis was visibly slower in the downhills, so I would guess they had big problems there.

 

[meat puppet]

just to get this str8

1) did the others finally master preparing skis?
2) or was there a blackout in the norse cottage, namely at the cooling department.

also, whatever the ultimate reasons are, the swedes have significantly upped their game.

 

[Silhouette]

The swedes are in their best shape and have obviously found skis that work, and so have the french and several other countries.

I'll be very surprised if some members of the norwegian wax team don't have to look for new employers after this season. The swedes haven't found a genius solution that nobody else have discovered, it's just the norwegians and partly a few other countries that seem to have major problems with their skis in the current conditions.

In the olympics, and after we have spent 25+ million nok to get the best skis in Sochi, probably 10x what many others spend. Someone will get fired.

Whether the norwegian athletes are in top shape is difficult to assess, some probably found their peak shape too early. Northug hasn't been in shape the entire season thanks to a virus in the summer. Though he seems to be improving.

 

[William H]

I don't think there was anything terribly wrong with the Norwegian freestyle skis, at least.



The French guys performed pretty brilliantly

 

[Silhouette]

Yeah, they seemed okay. Especially considering Sundby started like a mad man, and Northug might not have been very motivated to ski for fourth place.

Legkov, wow. That will be difficult to match on the 50 km.


Edit: Actually, reading now, it seems that they did a 180 with Northug's skis after they saw how Sundby's skis performed. They gave him skis with the default structure from the factory and a different wax/glider. So very likely not great skis, but at least they didn't perform worse near the end of the leg like the skis of the other 3.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Sweden's women's relay team vs Finland's women's relay team in World Cup distance races:

5 km C - Ladies - Stage World Cup
30 November 2013

1 KOWALCZYK Justyna POL 13:33.7
2 BJOERGEN Marit NOR 13:36.7
3 JOHAUG Therese NOR 13:48.3

5 KALLA Charlotte SWE 13:52.4
6 LAHTEENMAKI Krista FIN 14:00.0

13 NISKANEN Kerttu FIN 14:20.0

17 KYLLOENEN Anne FIN 14:22.6

36 INGEMARSDOTTER Ida SWE 14:43.4

43 WIKEN Emma SWE 14:47.4

45 SAARINEN Aino-kaisa FIN 14:49.4

10 km F Pursuit - Ladies - Stage World Cup
01 December 2013

1 KALLA Charlotte SWE 27:28.9 26:43.2
2 JOHAUG Therese NOR 27:29.4 26:44.5
3 BJOERGEN Marit NOR 27:28.1 27:02.4

13 SAARINEN Aino-kaisa FIN 29:45.2 27:53.6

20 KYLLOENEN Anne FIN 29:18.4 28:02.0

21 INGEMARSDOTTER Ida SWE 29:24.8 28:02.4

33 NISKANEN Kerttu FIN 29:36.1 28:18.8

35 LAHTEENMAKI Krista FIN 29:11.4 28:20.6

39 WIKEN Emma SWE 30:21.4 28:26.0

10 km C - Ladies - World Cup
07 December 2013

1 KOWALCZYK Justyna POL 24:59.4
2 KALLA Charlotte SWE 25:11.8
3 BJOERGEN Marit NOR 25:25.0

8 NISKANEN Kerttu FIN 26:23.3

10 LAHTEENMAKI Krista FIN 26:25.3

12 KYLLOENEN Anne FIN 26:31.3
13 SAARINEN Aino-kaisa FIN 26:38.1

40 INGEMARSDOTTER Ida SWE 27:53.4

15 km F - Ladies - World Cup
14 December 2013

1 BJOERGEN Marit NOR 35:34.4
2 JOHAUG Therese NOR 35:47.4
3 KALLA Charlotte SWE 36:03.3

5 NISKANEN Kerttu FIN 36:33.3
6 LAHTEENMAKI Krista FIN 36:50.1

26 KYLLOENEN Anne FIN 37:44.8

28 SAARINEN Aino-kaisa FIN 37:49.1

3 km F Prologue - Ladies - Stage World Cup

28 December 2013

1 BJOERGEN Marit NOR 6:34.4
2 JACOBSEN Astrid Uhrenholdt NOR 6:36.3
3 JASKOWIEC Sylwia POL 6:41.4

6 KYLLOENEN Anne FIN 6:43.9
7 SAARINEN Aino-Kaisa FIN 6:44.1

10 NISKANEN Kerttu FIN 6:46.4

16 LAHTEENMAKI Krista FIN 6:53.5

42 HAAG Anna SWE 7:01.6

50 WIKEN Emma SWE 7:04.2

10 km C Mst - Ladies - Stage World Cup
01 January 2014

1 NISKANEN Kerttu FIN 26:27.4
2 JACOBSEN Astrid Uhrenholdt NOR 26:27.8
3 JOHAUG Therese NOR 26:28.5

5 SAARINEN Aino-Kaisa FIN 26:29.9
6 KYLLOENEN Anne FIN 26:51.3

12 WIKEN Emma SWE 26:58.5
13 LAHTEENMAKI Krista FIN 26:59.9

16 HAAG Anna SWE 27:09.2

15 km F Pursuit - Ladies - Stage World Cup
03 January 2014

1 LINDBORG Sara SWE 39:50.9 37:16.6
2 LAHTEENMAKI Krista FIN 39:02.0 37:18.3
3 JEAN Aurore FRA 39:02.3 37:20.9

15 HAAG Anna SWE 40:07.1 37:37.1
16 KYLLOENEN Anne FIN 38:42.5 37:46.8

27 NISKANEN Kerttu FIN 38:52.8 38:16.0
28 WIKEN Emma SWE 40:52.9 38:20.1

37 SAARINEN Aino-Kaisa FIN 39:49.5 38:55.5

5 km C - Ladies - Stage World Cup
04 January 2014

1 JOHAUG Therese NOR 13:58.4
2 JACOBSEN Astrid Uhrenholdt NOR 14:13.3
3 KYLLOENEN Anne FIN 14:17.6
4 NISKANEN Kerttu FIN 14:18.1
5 LAHTEENMAKI Krista FIN 14:19.8

7 SAARINEN Aino-Kaisa FIN 14:21.7

12 HAAG Anna SWE 14:35.7

18 WIKEN Emma SWE 14:43.4

10 km C - Ladies - World Cup
01 February 2014 (1 week before the olympics)

1 BJOERGEN Marit NOR 26:54.2
2 JOHAUG Therese NOR 27:30.9
3 KALLA Charlotte SWE 27:37.1

6 NISKANEN Kerttu FIN 27:48.0

9 SAARINEN Aino-Kaisa FIN 28:07.8

28 HAAG Anna SWE 29:05.3

33 WIKEN Emma SWE 29:17.9

Results:

LAHTEENMAKI 6-35(P)-10-6-16-13-2(p)-5

NISKANEN 13-33(p)-8-5-10-1-27(p)-4-6

KYLLOENEN 17-20(p)-12-26-6-6-16(p)-3

SAARINEN 45-13(p)-13-28-7-5-37(p)-7-9

INGEMARSDOTTER 36-21(p)-40

WIKEN 43-39(p)-50-12-28(p)-18-33

HAAG 42-16-15(p)-12-28

KALLA 5-1-2-3-3

Top10's

LAHTEENMAKI 5

NISKANEN 6

KYLLOENEN 3

SAARINEN 4

INGEMARSDOTTER 0

WIKEN 0

HAAG 0

KALLA 4 (in 5 starts)

If I had told you 2 weeks ago that Sweden would match Finland in the classical relay legs you would've called me mad. Swedish fans were questioning whether they could challenge for bronze.
As for the men, Hellner's form was in serious doubt before Toblach and Olsson was probably going to miss out on the olympics due to injury. Hellner, Richardsson, Nelson, Olsson, Wikén and Ingemarsdotter all peaked perfectly, while Kalla is at a brand new level.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Swedish men had 1 podium before the olympics - Hellner in Toblach.

Swedish relay women not named Kalla did not have a single top 10 result before the olympics.

 

[Cloxxki]

I only saw a ridiculously short men's relay summary, but I got the same impression as from the women's. Norwegians fading HARD through the tournament. Starting as gods, parting as humans.

And Sweden cannot misplace a ski anymore.

It really looks to me like the NO team has been hit HARD with targeted testing.
I don't buy the ski prep nonsense. It was their way to beat EPO in 90's and it's losing them Sochi, progressively as the tournament progresses?

 

[William H]

Does getting a bronze constitute "starting as gods"? Well, their sprinters did well, but they weren't competing today.

 

[Cloxxki]

Does getting a bronze constitute "starting as gods"? Well, their sprinters did well, but they weren't competing today.

I meant Bjoergen. Starts with a 15km, normally the border of her endurance reach. Then as races get shorter, which favors her, she fades.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

I only saw a ridiculously short men's relay summary, but I got the same impression as from the women's. Norwegians fading HARD through the tournament. Starting as gods, parting as humans.

And Sweden cannot misplace a ski anymore.

It really looks to me like the NO team has been hit HARD with targeted testing.
I don't buy the ski prep nonsense. It was their way to beat EPO in 90's and it's losing them Sochi, progressively as the tournament progresses?

Do you mean that you don't think their skies were bad, or do you mean that bad skies are not that important?
If the first, well fair enough... if you were a blind man. Even Stevie Wonder could see the Norwegian girls having problems yesterday, if the second I suggest you try skiing a bit more often

 

[Cloxxki]

Do you mean that you don't think their skies were bad, or do you mean that bad skies are not that important?
If the first, well fair enough... if you were a blind man. Even Stevie Wonder could see the Norwegian girls having problems yesterday, if the second I suggest you try skiing a bit more often

That's just mean. I would have skied so much the past years if I felt I could afford it. Got 1 week on the streets here last winter. I need to fly to get to trails. Skiing it my #1 thing to do with clothes on though. Then, I never tried it without.

Indeed I didn't notice their skis being slow. Just the skiers being slow.
Would be a wow moment for the NO tech squad to get it wrong. And not have a secret stash of the competing brand. Now if they really had a disadvantage (Falla and Jacobsen seemed fine, admittedly when the snow was fresher), their sponsor is hurt more than when secretly the competing product had been used.
Then, the Norwegians get paid best or being pro's I suppose, they will survive fine without the prize money.
Are the biathletes affected by the same wax politics?

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

That's just mean. I would have skied so much the past years if I felt I could afford it. Got 1 week on the streets here last winter. I need to fly to get to trails. Skiing it my #1 thing to do with clothes on though. Then, I never tried it without.

Indeed I didn't notice their skis being slow. Just the skiers being slow.
Would be a wow moment for the NO tech squad to get it wrong. And not have a secret stash of the competing brand. Now if they really had a disadvantage (Falla and Jacobsen seemed fine, admittedly when the snow was fresher), their sponsor is hurt more than when secretly the competing product had been used.
Then, the Norwegians get paid best or being pro's I suppose, they will survive fine without the prize money.
Are the biathletes affected by the same wax politics?

Ronning complained that they lost all speed after 2-3 km, wich means the sprinters migt have escaped the problems atleast.
It is not as if a lack of dope will make Bjorgen go from world nr. 1 to getting beaten by some french woman noone has ever heard of in 2 weeks. Perhpas target testing got something to do with it (don't get me wrong I do belive most of them are druged up just as much as most cyclist ) but when even the other countries coment on how they couldnt stay behind the norwegians in the downhill because they were going so slow (this was said by the swede that did the first lap on on the womans relay, her name escpes me) there must be some truth to it.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Ronning complained that they lost all speed after 2-3 km, wich means the sprinters migt have escaped the problems atleast.
It is not as if a lack of dope will make Bjorgen go from world nr. 1 to getting beaten by some french woman noone has ever heard of in 2 weeks. Perhpas target testing got something to do with it (don't get me wrong I do belive most of them are druged up just as much as most cyclist ) but when even the other countries coment on how they couldnt stay behind the norwegians in the downhill because they were going so slow (this was said by the swede that did the first lap on on the womans relay, her name escpes me) there must be some truth to it.

Ida Ingemarsdotter.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Ida Ingemarsdotter.

ah, yes. thanks

 

[Cloxxki]

Fair enough!
Perhaps the targetting was not there. Too bad, really.
And is that new wax expensive or complicated? I'd like some perhaps.

TBH, my never-waxed skis always are equal to my ground and waxed skis. The ones that are the softest lex. Which makes sense. When I first had ski lessons, I was on too soft cheap Fischers with just cheap liquid wax, and I was flying by everyone on the slightest of dowhills. Soft skis are a handful on good snow though. Those unwaxed fast skis are just amazing in deep fresh snow.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Fair enough!
Perhaps the targetting was not there. Too bad, really.
And is that new wax expensive or complicated? I'd like some perhaps.

TBH, my never-waxed skis always are equal to my ground and waxed skis. The ones that are the softest lex. Which makes sense. When I first had ski lessons, I was on too soft cheap Fischers with just cheap liquid wax, and I was flying by everyone on the slightest of dowhills. Soft skis are a handful on good snow though. Those unwaxed fast skis are just amazing in deep fresh snow.

As far as I can understand there is not so much problem with the waxing, as much as the drainage (?) under the skies. Wich means they have problem with the initial preperation of the skies. Not really a big problem, but a complicated one (I am no expert though, but I know quite a few semi.pro skiers who could give us all a lesson in proper ski preperation )

 

[Cloxxki]

Nah, can't be!
Their base grinding super secret (which everyone knew) got them to beat EPO in the 90's! How can everyone now out-glide them?

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Nah, can't be!
Their base grinding super secret (which everyone knew) got them to beat EPO in the 90's! How can everyone now out-glide them?

base grinindg wary from day to day, and it is no longer 1992
edit: and usually the Norwegians got the best skies in the peloton, but they have ****ed up majorly in the Olympics

 

[Velo1ticker]

Nah, can't be!
Their base grinding super secret (which everyone knew) got them to beat EPO in the 90's! How can everyone now out-glide them?

Please try skiing once and your posts will improve.
Oh sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt your backpedaling exercise.

 

[Velo1ticker]

I meant Bjoergen. Starts with a 15km, normally the border of her endurance reach. Then as races get shorter, which favors her, she fades.

She has won the 30 km twice at the world champs (and 2nd once and second in Vancouver - tactical mistake pulling Kowa to the finish line only to loose the sprint) so she can handle the distance. Her big distance break came in the 30 km. Many spriters do well on the longer due to less importance of V2max. Stick to track’n field!

 

[maltiv]

I only saw a ridiculously short men's relay summary, but I got the same impression as from the women's. Norwegians fading HARD through the tournament. Starting as gods, parting as humans.

And Sweden cannot misplace a ski anymore.

It really looks to me like the NO team has been hit HARD with targeted testing.
I don't buy the ski prep nonsense. It was their way to beat EPO in 90's and it's losing them Sochi, progressively as the tournament progresses?

Not progressively, the Norwegians have failed ever since the weather got warmer. Combined with the fact that they have admitted not to have prepared for those conditions, and the competitors laughing at the norwegians while passing them downhill, your comment is simply ridiculous, as I'm sure you have understood by now...

Funny how Northug used fabric skis yesterday, which were a lot better than those prepared by the team. Normally fabric skis should be far under par though, so I doubt they were actually good, just better than awful...

 

[python]

Funny how Northug used fabric skis yesterday, which were a lot better than those prepared by the team. Normally fabric skis should be far under par though, so I doubt they were actually good, just better than awful...

did you mean 'straight from the factory skis that underwent base stone grinding OUTSIDE the team set up ?

if so, those northug skis were still slower than sundby's by over 40 seconds (!) on the same course in the same conditions and prepared supposedly by the team.

still those 'factory' skis were only 9th fastest of the 30 something competitors in the skating legs.

i am not saying reject everything that your media said, but sometimes another independent look can provide a different story.


of course, my observations are outside your debate with cloxxi, just a comment.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

You can't compare the 3rd and 4th relay legs directly. The course is different! Which is why Claudia Nystad was just 9 seconds slower than a Charlotte Kalla in the best form of her life.

Also, Sundby is clearly much stronger than Northug, which showed in the olympic skiathlon and the entire season before that.