Doping in XC skiing

[Velo1ticker]

I remember a story that Koss got his "training advice" from none other than Francesco Conconi.

Again. Please provide a link.
Could you be confusing training advice with a lecture Conconi held at the same time he was in Norway to promote world champs in Norway?

 

[kottila]

Is there any other evidence for this than that they were at the same place once?

 

[jens_attacks]

Is there any other evidence for this than that they were at the same place once?

an urban myth says that even finding yourself at a distance of under 100 meters close to dottore conconi was enough to spike your hematocrit by 20%...

 

[MrRoboto]

I think there is a picture of Koss where you can see Conconi in the background. Pretty clear evidence there


But didn't Conconi's list contain hundreds of people, but we still only know a handfull of these? Or am I completely wrong here?

 

[kottila]

I think there is a picture of Koss where you can see Conconi in the background. Pretty clear evidence there

The picture is from 1993 when Conconi was travelling to Norway with Moser as part of a research project on retired athletes and the skating national team was invited to do a training session with them on the Hamar velodrome.

In hindsight this is a funny quote from the 1993 article (unfortunately the photo was not accessible in the database):

The skating guys also had expectations of a lecture by Professor Conconi last night. Conconi is well known for getting athletes in peak condition for a special day, and it might fit well with some tips before the Olympic season. * - It depends if he reveals all his secrets, but I can not wait. It is certainly something we can pick up, said Koss. * - We are now quite adept getting in to peak condition ourselves, let Hans Trygve Kristiansen added. * Cross Country Coach Inge Braten and cycling coach Gunnar Høygilt was also invited to listen to the Conconi lecture

 

[ToreBear]

That Norwegian doping..

Yeah, and they are shamelessly flashing it in our faces...

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

We like talking about Bjorgen, but Cologna was something special today.

 

[roundabout]

Yeah, and they are shamelessly flashing it in our faces...

I thought superior coaching, ski preparation and talent pool is enough to overcome even the biggest obstacles.

Wonder what's the difference between FIS and IOC testing?

 

[Nicko.]

Yeah, and they are shamelessly flashing it in our faces...

Fanboy, i believe you havn't really grasped the main norwegian issue in this monsterthread:

Dählie, Ulvang, Alsgaard and all the pawns keeping up and out-skiing an entire generation of PROVEN DOPERS from Italy, Russia, Austria, Finland and Spain while touting cleanliness/non-positive/stone grinding/culture/resources/integrity/altitude training/talent/bs...

This norwegian generation did all that while it's (skiing) little brother Sweden went through a national trauma, scoring 2-3 medals TOTAL through the entire EPO free-for-all party.
Before EPO (and to a degree after), XC skiing was in some state of normality/balance between the two nations.

There is the rub.

Present generation Norwegians (~from Northug on) are no more suspicious than Swedes, Finns, Russians(?), French or Germans in general, given the lack of clear indicators or positives.

Keep those two issues separate...

 

[ToreBear]

I thought superior coaching, ski preparation and talent pool is enough to overcome even the biggest obstacles.

Wonder what's the difference between FIS and IOC testing?

Yep I would think it is, though not necessarily at high altitude.
http://blogg.svt.se/vinterstudion/2012/12/nagra-tankar-om-hog-hojd/

IOC testing started last thursday, or thursday before that(I forgot which one). In any case it would not detect doping done before this, unless they have some new secret test. So it's more or less IC testing.

Real OOC testing would be the job of FIS and the national anti doping organizations. If the national anti doping organizations are lacking, Fis, I assume has to step up.

 

[ToreBear]

Fanboy, i believe you havn't really grasped the main norwegian issue in this monsterthread:

Dählie, Ulvang, Alsgaard and all the pawns keeping up and out-skiing an entire generation of PROVEN DOPERS from Italy, Russia, Austria, Finland and Spain while touting cleanliness/non-positive/stone grinding/culture/resources/integrity/altitude training/talent/bs...

This norwegian generation did all that while it's (skiing) little brother Sweden went through a national trauma, scoring 2-3 medals TOTAL through the entire EPO free-for-all party.
Before EPO (and to a degree after), XC skiing was in some state of normality/balance between the two nations.

There is the rub.

Present generation Norwegians (~from Northug on) are no more suspicious than Swedes, Finns, Russians(?), French or Germans in general, given the lack of clear indicators or positives.

Keep those two issues separate...

We were talking about today not the 90s.

 

[jens_attacks]

seems like norwegian logistics guys didn't get visa for russia

at least they were strong the first two days or so...

 

[roundabout]

Yep I would think it is, though not necessarily at high altitude.
http://blogg.svt.se/vinterstudion/2012/12/nagra-tankar-om-hog-hojd/

IOC testing started last thursday, or thursday before that(I forgot which one). In any case it would not detect doping done before this, unless they have some new secret test. So it's more or less IC testing.

Real OOC testing would be the job of FIS and the national anti doping organizations. If the national anti doping organizations are lacking, Fis, I assume has to step up.

I am confused. You think altitude is one factor hindering Norwegians? Is that correct?

There have been some rather unusual results, but I am wondering if it's a case of some people getting their peak wrong (it's only 2 weeks!) or is there something more sinister at play.

 

[ToreBear]

I am confused. You think altitude is one factor hindering Norwegians? Is that correct?

There have been some rather unusual results, but I am wondering if it's a case of some people getting their peak wrong (it's only 2 weeks!) or is there something more sinister at play.

Your guess is as good as mine. Right now I'm just confused.

I had this article in mind for some time. My theory has been that o2 doping in xc will only become a real factor at high altitude because the best are not maxed out in their o2 transport capability at normal sea level(or is it Karlssons theory?, it doesn't matter). I was waiting for some surprise performances, but this was not what I was expecting.

It has rocked my world, and I'm hoping that some alternate and plausible explanations present themselves to me.

 

[the sceptic]

seems like norwegian logistics guys didn't get visa for russia

at least they were strong the first two days or so...

the magical stone grinded skis that can give you a 5 minute boost are no longer working it seems.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

the magical stone grinded skis that can give you a 5 minute boost are no longer working it seems.

They should find a way to get rid of all the wax differentiation anyway. Its a distraction.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Real Biathlon ski speed analysis after the sprint and pursuit.

Here's a quick comparison of skiing speed in the first two races at the 2014 Olympics with averages in the five sprints/pursuits of the 2013–14 World Cup season. Who performs better/worse in Sochi?

Martin Fourcade, Ole Einar Bjoerndalen and Dominik Landertinger have been the fastest skiers in Sochi so far. On average, Fourcade skied 0.4% fastest than the day's top ten, which is exactly what he managed during the World Cup season; Bjoerndalen is slightly faster (-0.3%), Landeringer a lot faster (-1.1%) at the moment.

Some notable improvers compared to their 2013–14 averages are Klemen Bauer (-2.3%), Jaroslav Soukup (-1.9%), Anton Shipulin (-1.2%) and Simon Fourcade (-1.2%). The worst performers: Tarjei Boe (+2.1%), Carl Johan Bergman (+1.9%), Johannes Thingnes Boe (+1.7%), Tim Burke (+1.1%) and Emil Hegle Svendsen (+0.8%).

Darya Domracheva is the fastest skier for the women, ahead of Kaisa Mäkäräinen and Gabriela Soukalova. Domracheva's and Mäkäräinen's skiing is virtually unchanged compared to their World Cup results, while Soukalova improved a lot (-1.8%). The two North Americans Susan Dunklee and Zina Kocher do incredibly well in Sochi.

Notable big improvers compared to their 2013–14 averages: Kocher (-2.6%), Elisa Gasparin (-2.6%), Dunklee (-2.5%), Karin Oberhofer (-2.3%) and Vita Semerenko (-1.9%). Worst performers: Franziska Preuss (+3.1%), Synnoeve Solemdal (+2.7%), Olena Pidhrushna (+2.3%) and Andrea Henkel (+1.5%).

http://realbiathlon.blogspot.se/2014/02/ski-speed-at-2014-winter-olympics.html

Italians are faster relative to the competition.

WINDISCH Dominik ITA -1.5%
HOFER Lukas ITA -0.6%

OBERHOFER Karin ITA -2.3%
GONTIER Nicole ITA -2.1%
WIERER Dorothea ITA -0.8%

Norwegians are slower (except OEB).

BJOERNDALEN Ole Einar NOR -0.3%
SVENDSEN Emil Hegle NOR +0.8%
BOE Johannes T. NOR +1.7%
BOE Tarjei NOR +2.1%

ECKHOFF Tiril NOR +0.2%
BERGER Tora NOR +0.5%
FLATLAND Ann Kristin NOR +1.6%
SOLEMDAL Synnoeve NOR +2.7%

As are german women (except Evi).

SACHENBACHER-S. Evi GER -0.6%
HENKEL Andrea GER +1.5%
DAHLMEIER Laura GER +1.8%
PREUSS Franziska GER +3.1%

Susan Dunklee is a real standout. Fourth fastest skier after the sprint+pursuit and the fifth best ski time in today's 15k race.

 

[Silhouette]

Norway should have brought L'Abée-Lund to the biathlon events, he performed well just before the Olympics and he's known to do well at high altitude, same as Bjørndalen. Svendsen, Bø, Berger and the rest of the national team obviously did something wrong in their training leading up to the competition, Bjørndalen didn't believe in their plans and chose to stay at higher altitude more than the others.

 

[Jaco0505]

Dombrachevas waxer:
He says that Domratsjevas success is vital for the sport in Belarus.
- If it did not go well at the Olympics I was told that it was end to biathlon in Belarus, he admits.

Not saying she is doping, but that is some real good motivation.

 

[Silhouette]

Domracheva is just so elegant on skis. She reminds me of Alsgaard, she almost looks slow even when she's faster than everybody else. I'm not surprised she's so fast on this course in these conditions.

 

[Marco Pantani]

seems like norwegian logistics guys didn't get visa for russia

at least they were strong the first two days or so...

Yep, something like that.

 

[William H]

Well, if the Norwegians don't win the women's cross country relay they'll have real problems. This should be about the most foregone conclusion at the games.

 

[MrRoboto]

seems like norwegian logistics guys didn't get visa for russia

at least they were strong the first two days or so...

But they weren't.

 

[Nicko.]

That Norwegian doping..

Yeah, and they are shamelessly flashing it in our faces...

Fanboy, i believe you havn't really grasped the main norwegian issue in this monsterthread:

Dählie, Ulvang, Alsgaard and all the pawns keeping up and out-skiing an entire generation of PROVEN DOPERS from Italy, Russia, Austria, Finland and Spain while touting cleanliness/non-positive/stone grinding/culture/resources/integrity/altitude training/talent/bs...

This norwegian generation did all that while it's (skiing) little brother Sweden went through a national trauma, scoring 2-3 medals TOTAL through the entire EPO free-for-all party.
Before EPO (and to a degree after), XC skiing was in some state of normality/balance between the two nations.

There is the rub.

Present generation Norwegians (~from Northug on) are no more suspicious than Swedes, Finns, Russians(?), French or Germans in general, given the lack of clear indicators or positives.

Keep those two issues separate...

We were talking about today not the 90s.

That was my point!

Don't let the MASSIVE issue with Norway in the EPO 90's mix with present day XC racing and the subtle (relatively) doping signs that borders on tasseography, this side of the screen.

If you think it's the world against Norway always, go ahead, keep feeding the ignoramus (kottila, jens_attacks et al).

IMO, "Norway" is anti-doping, strongly.
A small circle in norwegian XC joined the dark side in the 90's. They are still covering the tracks...
Discuss.

 

[manafana]

IOC thought the UCI much of its tricks to Verbruggen some good people in their but also lots of Blatter types including our own Pat Hickie. The testing is not up to scratch.