Doping in XC skiing

[peloton]

 

[Kristian]

Those numbers Nicko quote doesn't prove anything. If you look at the medal statistics (Nordic Ski Championships) from Falun in 1993 to Oslo 2011, then you will see that the Norwegians have been more successful after the full blown EPO area. If anything it shows that the Norwegians have been more successful after the EPO-test was presented.

Falun 1993:
1. Norway Total medals: 14
2. Russia 8
3. Japan 3
Thunder Bay 1995:
1. Russia 10
2. Norway 9
3. Kasakh 4
Trondheim 1997
1. Russia 10
2. Norway 11
3. Finland 8
Ramsau 1999
1.Norway 9
2.Finland 6
3.Russia 7
Lahtis 2001
1. Norway 10
2. Germany 8
3. Finland 10
Val di Fiemme 2003
1.Norway 16
2.Germany 8
3.Sweden 6
Oberstdorf 2005
1. Norway 19
2. Germany 7
3. Russia 7
Sapporo 2007
1. Norway 16
2. Finland 8
3. Germany 9
Liberec 2009
1. Norway 12
2. United States 6
3. Finland 8
Holmenkollen 2011
1. Norway 20
2. Austria 10
3. Sweden 5


As a Norwegian myself and an avid follower of the sport, with an inch of inside knowledge, I seriously doubt organized doping in the past. At the same time I accept it would be very naive to think that they have all been clean.

Especially cross-country skiing is a very big sport in Norway, in the world its a paragraph. Its not very surprising to be a dominant force in winter sports if you see the financing and major number of kids who wishes to be the next Dæhlie or Northug. If you compare numbers to Sweden, who is a bigger country population wise, there is a lot more active skiers, biathlets etc. than in Sweden.

The fact that major parts of the country enjoy good winters also makes it a lot easier for good training conditions. Its not an coincidence that a lot of Sweden's skiers are from the North while in Norway they are from all over the country.

 

[Cloxxki]

Kristian, good comments.
However we all know a fine young gentleman (Oprah's buddy) who is famous for exiting the EPO era and keep on winning whatever he pleased. And how he did it.
The lack of medals by Sweden in the EPO era is really intriguing. And Swedish men losing to Norwegians at the end of races, is very, very obvious. In pure sprinting, the speed difference just is not there. All current Swedes have proper distance speed, but cannot accelerate like Russians and Norwegians, and Swiss, and...
Another angle, what if Sweden were a hard core blood doping nation, at least for their medallers? And so since the 70's/80's where we know it to have been present in the Nordic region. What if they just never went on EPO, and thus lagged behind in that era? It could also explain Swedish's relative dominance before EPO and return to form after. They were ahead in blood doping where the others were cold turkey off EPO and figuring it all out the hard way.

 

[zapata]

That blue column might just as easily be called "Gunde Svan in the golden era of blood transfusions".

 

[the sceptic]

If the norwegians had better skiis throughout the 90s then it looks like they forgot to tell their womens team.

 

[zapata]

If the norwegians had better skiis throughout the 90s then it looks like they forgot to tell their womens team.

And if they were doping, they forgot to dope the women.

Reasoning like that is just to simplistic. Reducing a very complex picture to one variable.

 

[Thorrez]

Kristian, good comments.
However we all know a fine young gentleman (Oprah's buddy) who is famous for exiting the EPO era and keep on winning whatever he pleased. And how he did it.
The lack of medals by Sweden in the EPO era is really intriguing. And Swedish men losing to Norwegians at the end of races, is very, very obvious. In pure sprinting, the speed difference just is not there. All current Swedes have proper distance speed, but cannot accelerate like Russians and Norwegians, and Swiss, and...
Another angle, what if Sweden were a hard core blood doping nation, at least for their medallers? And so since the 70's/80's where we know it to have been present in the Nordic region. What if they just never went on EPO, and thus lagged behind in that era? It could also explain Swedish's relative dominance before EPO and return to form after. They were ahead in blood doping where the others were cold turkey off EPO and figuring it all out the hard way.

I just have to defend my childhood heros here.

I think we can agree to this:
1. If you juice on blood, you gain more the closer to the juicing and it fades over time.

2.
Sarajevo 1984.
First race 30k on the 10th, Svan is beaten by Zimyatov and Savjalov
Second race 15k on the 13th, Svan wins and beats Zimyatov with over a 1 minute
Third race 50k on the 19th, Svan is second behind Vassberg with 4 and a half(!) miniute on Savjalov

3.
Calgary 1988
Same story (only Svan only wins 50k)

Anyone still think:
"...Sweden were a hard core blood doping nation...".

And add to that that we, as you say, is totally off in the EPO era. Does it make sense that if a nation was hard core doping, had the resouces and yet not even tried the new, undetectable, stuff out there?

This is enough for me to prove the top swedish skier did not juice. There is actually honest people in the world, even though I can understand that is sometimes hard to remember as a cycling fan.

 

[Ferminal]

Blood values in the 90's, huh?
What about medals in the 90's?

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1087121&postcount=672

Seems Norway really focused on Ski prep in the 90s whilst everyone else forgot about it.

 

[MrRoboto]

The graph only really says anything about Sweden's big down period in the 90's, which is interesting enough of course.

Here is a graph that shows Sweden's medals from 1970-1999:

Gives a slightly different picture. Statistics are funny that way. I see Nicko's graph lacks a fancy explanation before the happy 80's. Major ski waxing breakthrough maybe?

 

[Cloxxki]

There were some cycling legends who felt OK to use amphetamines and whatevver was out there for them in the 80's and early 90's, but drew the line at EPO, as they considered that "too" hard core. I am just offering scenario's.

I can totally see how a med staff's view could be that blood juggling was not really doping, no substances involved, all very benign. They could internally make clear to skier that this is what they'd get, and nothing else would be tolerated, they'd be thrown under the bus, national disgrace. Stick to our little ways, and we'll make you hero's. Losing hero's, but hero's.

Blood doping makes you fade if you don't take any new fresh blood. No-one prevents you fro taking blood between races, as on the GC rest days. And non-dopers fade as well of course. If you're dependant on outside blood source, you could first test the waters, notice you are not good enough on your own, so need to set the darn needle, and your soigneur one in the upper of the stacked beds, nice little red coloring hose in between. If it was done really roughly, they might not even know how much was transferred.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Seems Norway really focused on Ski prep in the 90s whilst everyone else forgot about it.

--------------
Well, there is the stone-grinding, which I know has been attacked as myth by somebody here on the clinic. Not sure who has the facts right on that one.However, watching XC norwegians have very often been gaining time on the downhill sections, indicating good skis, but losing on the climbs, indicating they are not the ones with the strongest "engine".

Back to the graph - kind of silly to show the results like Norway did nothing in the 80s just because Dæhlie was still a kid then.

The swedes had their Gunde Svan, we've had Dæhlie, Alsgaard, Northug, and Bjørgen. Truly outstanding athletes like these are not something one can count on getting, and will of course show up on the medal-count in their era.

 

[neineinei]

Saltin mentions skiers flying to Rome and back during a championship. Presumably this wasn't skiers with a death in their family living in the Rome area, but rather a raised middle finger to FIS and their anti-doping efforts.

http://translate.google.com/transla...sport/ski/vm/2013/artikkel.php?artid=10100971

 

[Armchaircyclist]

If the norwegians had better skiis throughout the 90s then it looks like they forgot to tell their womens team.

--------------
Sport is also always about getting the right individuals that have the necessary talent and dedication. How do you feel about Norwegian female skiers now then ? They are absolutely crushing the swedes, but it could be the swedes aren't getting it right couldn't it ? Kalla seemed a bigger talent than for instance Johaug, but Johaug might get some "marginal gains" from training with a better group, and having the world #1 to train with.

Of course it could also be Bjørgen showing the way as to how to dope, who can tell. She is built like a body builder, though that picture of her arms makes her look bigger than she is. Strength training for the upper body did once revolutionize swimming, why should the same not happen in XC-skiing ?

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Lives in AUSTRIA. Had a few weaker years. Finding form back...sounds like an Austrian real-time fairytale, doesn't it?

.

He has been living out of Norway for a long long time, not sure if he moved over the border from Italy, or if he already was in Austria before the divorce from italian nataly santer. Suspicious maybe, but nothing new, they were married for 6 years.

Bjørndalen has ranked 12,10 and 10 in the 3 previous years in the world cup. I fail to see how his current rank of 19 indicates that he has suddenly found his form again.

Bjørndalen is a man extremely dedicated to details. He talks about moving to a location 150meters further up, as that would put him in the exact same altitude as the olympic races in Sochi. I think if Bjørndalen was doping he would do it so well that there would be no gold medals to take for anybody else. This is a guy who well into his 30s would lie down in the hall at the hotel to practice shooting position and shooting drill in the evening. He is also a guy who could compete with the best XC-skiers while he was younger. That he can still hang in there with biathletes at 39, is no surprise, though he is not as good as he once was.

 

[neineinei]

--------------
Well, there is the stone-grinding, which I know has been attacked as myth by somebody here on the clinic. Not sure who has the facts right on that one.However, watching XC norwegians have very often been gaining time on the downhill sections, indicating good skis, but losing on the climbs, indicating they are not the ones with the strongest "engine".

Back to the graph - kind of silly to show the results like Norway did nothing in the 80s just because Dæhlie was still a kid then.

The swedes had their Gunde Svan, we've had Dæhlie, Alsgaard, Northug, and Bjørgen. Truly outstanding athletes like these are not something one can count on getting, and will of course show up on the medal-count in their era.

The Dæhlie/Sweden graph is indeed a masterpiece of silliness.

The Norwegian ski federation is saying they are open about it all and not hiding anything. The best way of showing that would be to release all info about the blood values from 1986 and up to now. Erling Jevne says the numbers SVT was showing him wasn't correct. If he is right a release of the numbers would benefit him too.

http://sport.aftenposten.no/sport/skivm_2013/article269079.ece

 

[neineinei]

He has been living out of Norway for a long long time, not sure if he moved over the border from Italy, or if he already was in Austria before the divorce from italian nataly santer. Suspicious maybe, but nothing new, they were married for 6 years.

Bjørndalen has ranked 12,10 and 10 in the 3 previous years in the world cup. I fail to see how his current rank of 19 indicates that he has suddenly found his form again.

Bjørndalen is a man extremely dedicated to details. He talks about moving to a location 150meters further up, as that would put him in the exact same altitude as the olympic races in Sochi. I think if Bjørndalen was doping he would do it so well that there would be no gold medals to take for anybody else. This is a guy who well into his 30s would lie down in the hall at the hotel to practice shooting position and shooting drill in the evening. He is also a guy who could compete with the best XC-skiers while he was younger. That he can still hang in there with biathletes at 39, is no surprise, though he is not as good as he once was.

Bjørndalen moved to Obertilliach in Austria in 2003.

http://sport.aftenposten.no/sport/skivm_2013/article269079.ece

And he is still living there.

http://www.bygdeposten.no/sport/article6268802.ece

 

[MrRoboto]

Bjørndalen is a man extremely dedicated to details. He talks about moving to a location 150meters further up, as that would put him in the exact same altitude as the olympic races in Sochi. I think if Bjørndalen was doping he would do it so well that there would be no gold medals to take for anybody else.

Well, he pretty much did. In the 2002 olympics he crushed all opposition (maybe except Frode Andresen who kept failing on the last shooting). And that was after he almost won a medal behind Mühlegg, Hoffmann and Botvinov on the XC 30 km.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Well, he pretty much did. In the 2002 olympics he crushed all opposition (maybe except Frode Andresen who kept failing on the last shooting). And that was after he almost won a medal behind Mühlegg, Hoffmann and Botvinov on the XC 30 km.

--------------
Yes, he was the best, but not always the fastest. Finishing behind 3 dopers in XC proves more than anything that he did not dope. There is no way these 3 are as talented as Bjørndalen. Muhlegg for instance was pretty mediocre compared to Bjørndalen, before he started doping, outskied everybody, and got caught for it.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Lol Mühlegg. He should be the official mascot of this thread.

 

[Walkman]

That blue column might just as easily be called "Gunde Svan in the golden era of blood transfusions".

Sour grapes from a norwegian, what a shocker.

Had you done some research, you would have know that in 1989, Gundes most successful World Championships (he won three gold) the blood test showed no signs of any doping. In fact, mean values at the 1989 World Nordic Ski Championships were lower than population reference values, as would be expected from plasma volume expansion associated with endurance training.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10755280

There is no evidence against the Swedes. But there are a lot of suspect results and HB values from Norweigan skiers during the 90's.

Swedish (male) Hb values during the 90's.

Season, In-season avg, Off-season avg, Peak value

93–94 156,7±7,7 153,6±4,6 172 (No limit)
94–95 150,5±9,3 149,5±7,2 166
95–96 152,9±9,2 149,5±9,2 168
96–97 152,2±7,4 149,5±1,2 164 (limit: 185)
97–98 146,4±3,5 149,2±3,1 161
98–99 150,2±4,0 147,7±2,5 159
99–00 149,3±7,0 154,5±8,1 168
00–01 150,8±6,4 150,7±4,7 161 (limit: 175)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12792206

This has been posted in the thread before:

This 30km freestyle race from 1994 Olympics in Lillehammer is a good example. We know Myllyla (3rd) took EPO. Most likely Isometsa (6th) and Rasanen (11th) as well. Botvinov of Austria (4th) and Smirnov (10th) of Kazakhstan were considered amongst the biggest dopers of the time. Muehlegg (9th) is a giveaway. You're implying (and I am agreeing) that Italians doped - that takes care of DeZolt (5th) and Fauner (7th). The only clean skiers in top 11, according to you, would have been Alsgaard (1st by a mile) and Dahlie (2nd by another mile).

Furthermore, consider this:

1995; some skiers had 20 g/100 ml with all medal winners above 17.5 g /100 ml. From 1997 upper allowed limit for men 18.5 g/100 ml.

1999 some 30 male skiers between 17.0- 18.7 g/100 ml; medal winners > 17.0 g/100ml.

Just check out the guys who did medal in those Championships:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIS_Nordic_World_Ski_Championships_1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIS_Nordic_World_Ski_Championships_1997

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Sour grapes from a norwegian, what a shocker.

Had you done some research, you would have know that in 1989, Gundes most successful World Championships (he won three gold) the blood test showed no signs of any doping. In fact, mean values at the 1989 World Nordic Ski Championships were lower than population reference values, as would be expected from plasma volume expansion associated with endurance training.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10755280

There is no evidence against the Swedes. But there are a lot of suspect results and HB values from Norweigan skiers during the 90's.

Swedish (male) Hb values during the 90's.

Season, In-season avg, Off-season avg, Peak value

93–94 156,7±7,7 153,6±4,6 172 (No limit)
94–95 150,5±9,3 149,5±7,2 166
95–96 152,9±9,2 149,5±9,2 168
96–97 152,2±7,4 149,5±1,2 164 (limit: 185)
97–98 146,4±3,5 149,2±3,1 161
98–99 150,2±4,0 147,7±2,5 159
99–00 149,3±7,0 154,5±8,1 168
00–01 150,8±6,4 150,7±4,7 161 (limit: 175)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12792206

This has been posted in the thread before:



Furthermore, consider this:

1995; some skiers had 20 g/100 ml with all medal winners above 17.5 g /100 ml. From 1997 upper allowed limit for men 18.5 g/100 ml.

1999 some 30 male skiers between 17.0- 18.7 g/100 ml; medal winners > 17.0 g/100ml.

Just check out the guys who did medal in those Championships:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIS_Nordic_World_Ski_Championships_1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIS_Nordic_World_Ski_Championships_1997

--------------
Sour grapes that were given back to a swede to begin with.

Did the swedes use altitude-training in the same way the Norwegians did in the 90s ? Altitude-houses are now banned in Norway, but worked well for the norwegians in the 90s.

It's just as suspect to ascribe Dæhlie's dominance to doping, as Svan's. I don't think either doped, but the possibility is always there. I can't believe blood tests were very frequent in the time when no method to find blood-doping was invented yet.

 

[Walkman]

--------------
Sour grapes that were given back to a swede to begin with.

Did the swedes use altitude-training in the same way the Norwegians did in the 90s ? Altitude-houses are now banned in Norway, but worked well for the norwegians in the 90s.

It's just as suspect to ascribe Dæhlie's dominance to doping, as Svan's. I don't think either doped, but the possibility is always there. I can't believe blood tests were very frequent in the time when no method to find blood-doping was invented yet.

Did you not read what I wrote and the links I posted?! How can you possibly say Svan is as suspect as Dæhlie?!

Furthermore, Per Elofsson did use a altitude regulated condo and he never had any problems with his Hb values. He was at ~15 g/l in 2001 winning three medals in Lahtis.

And if you could give me a study that shows the correlation between altitude training (actually, the Norweigans used altitude tents) and abnormally high Hb values, that would be really great!

 

[zapata]

Gunde Svan and Bjørn Dæhlie were, in my opinion, as clean as two turds.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

It's not like altitude training went out of fashion with the ban of altitude tents.

Hög höjd har annars alltid varit ett prioriterat område inom norsk skid- åkning. Speciellt mängden dagar. Exempelvis kommer Petter Northug att, sedan i våras, ha tillbringat 105 dagar på hög höjd innan VM-premiären i Val di Fiemme i mars.

105 days at altitude. Where are the team wide start prohibitions?

 

[neineinei]

Not cross country skiing, but still:

Swedish speed skater Jonny Nilsson says he was offered blood transfusions by a doctor in 1966. He believes he was the first Swede to get such an offer.
He doesn't say anything about who this doctor was. But the doc came to him after he lost his 10 000 meter world record to Fred Anton Maier and said: If you had done like I told you this wouldn't have happened.

http://www.nrk.no/sport/ble-tilbudt-bloddoping-i-1966-1.10911639