Doping in XC skiing

[Libertine Seguros]

The speed? Seriously, only Domracheva and a healthy Gössner make it to Neuner's pace, or Mäkäräinen on a good day. Soukalová may be a fairly likable personality, but she's more of an all-rounder and less of a dynamic competitor than Neuner.

Regards Germans, I see Franziska Preuss as the next big thing, albeit more of a Martina Glagow than a Magdalena Neuner. Each result better than the last, she shoots blitzschnell (faster than Tora!!!) and she posted the 6th fastest ski time in the pursuit race. Not bad for somebody who was still eligible for youth races last season.

 

[Cloxxki]

Dahlmeier already impressed me a lot last year. Nerves of steel, and seems to still be developing her skiing whereas Neuner kind of landed in the WC as the fastest of all. Dahlmeier, sorry to say, looks to be become better than Henkel. More reliable in the range and with plenty of time to build her skiing capacity. It doesn't need much from where she already is. Did Martin Fourcade start out as well as she?

Domracheva surely is the best skier. I cannot say enough about her technique, and shockingly she seems to still be improving. Her speed surely is explained mostly by her technique alone. Show me someone close to her obvious efficiency, and I'll introduce you to Lars Berger. Both are hard to match in soft/fresh snow, utter smoothness.
M. Fourcade is great, such a springyness, but his style is not possible for evveryone, he must be a freak of nature. He skis, contained, all season like the best/worst Austrian doped performances of a few years ago.
I still cannot get over how much the Austrian team performs as one athlete. They all have good/bad races/seasons in terms of ski speed as a team.
Norway's ski performances all seem quite predictable (year even lars Berger's), with the main exception Bjoerndalen. The guy who kept up with the very worst EPO offenders in the 90's is now pulling a Chris Horner.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I've been a fan of Dahlmeier since her incredible World Cup debut in the World Championship relay last year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cvAi43cv2BQ#t=2045

Nerves of steel sums her up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3yv0H7nhek

 

[neineinei]

Per Elofsson releases his blood values:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/vintersport/skidor/article18001191.ab

(Västerbottes-Kuriren is the original publisher, but their article is behind the pay wall)

Tests taken at Idrottsmedicin in Umeå:
1993 (16 years old): 151
1994 (17 years old) 156
1996, 21/8 149
1997, 15/10 149
1997, 22/10 146
2004, 29/10 156
2005, 14/1 159
2005, 5/3 155
2005, 21/4 157
2005, 12/8 156
2005, 14/10 154
2005, 25/1 150
2006, 17/6 151
Highest: 159
Lowest: 146

Other tests:
1997, 7/7 141 (k)
1997, 8/10 160 (k) Ramsau
1998, 8/11 158 (k)
1998, 11/12 159
1999, 7/8 146 (k) Idre
2000, 2/2 150 Prerace Trondheim
2000, 27/2 156 Prerace Falun
2000, 7/9 160 Östersund lab
2000, 9/11 148 Kiruna lab
2001, 30/10 144 Falun
2001, 20/2 151 Lahtis **
(**strax innan VM där flera finska åkare fälldes för dopning)
* (k) betyder att testet utförts kapillärt och är osäkrare.
* Elofsson was tested May 25 this year and had 150.

 

[the sceptic]

I guess altitude training only works on norwegians

 

[roundabout]

160 in Ramsau, 149 a week later in Sweden. Maybe altitude works for him as well.

What is up with there being more post-retirement values than ones from the time he was the best skier in the world (2 world cups, 3 world titles)?

 

[Cloxxki]

If you suspect (or plan) you'll be tested, and you don't race anymore, leveling your values should be relatively simple. Daily routine, few adjustments needed.

How did being open about values work out for the likes of Armstrong?

Funny that the omerta in other sports for some reason is even STRONGER than in cycling. Hard to imagine, but a blatantly obvious reality. Speed skating, nothing going on there. Skiing, only Russia and Estonia. Biathlon, only Russia.

Did Neuner retire for Graeme Obree-like reasons? Career long dope-free, titles and records, and getting in trouble at the team, couldn't get the traction to get them clean up?
If so, she obviously can't speak about it, her young life with media plans to shatters. She was complaining about not being tested to often, but I bet dopers have been using that rhetoric also. At least she was pretty consistent in being super fast. Never looked overly toned like some triathletes. Not as "bodybuilder" as Bjoergen either.

Norway opened a can of new super skiers. Golberg now wins a 10km classic. At the Lillehammer relays the #3 team was closing in on the #1. Gjerdalen (effectively #9 man of the Norwegians) closed like half a minute to the leaders.
For some reason, when Russia can bring 2 team to the finish line neck-and-neck, its suspect. When Norway (over)do it, it's a skiing-centric nation. Yeah, but also super wealthy, no real need to train like crazy to make a life for yourself. That Vylexhanin is on the juice is beyond doubt. Got his Hc over 50% once, but not since strangely. Legkov, sorry he too.
Lucas Bauer almost completely back on top form, caught up with the Russians and Norwegians? I don't know.

 

[the sceptic]

re: speed skating, isnt Pechstein doing a Horner right now? and she has even tested positive.

 

[roundabout]

re: speed skating, isnt Pechstein doing a Horner right now? and she has even tested positive.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudia_Pechstein

well, not really. Results have not been up to the pre-ban level

 

[the sceptic]

Didnt she get pretty close to her PB when she won a world cup event a couple of weeks ago?

 

[roundabout]

Yeah, I remember a headline to that effect. Calgary I think it was?

Edit: Salt Lake City

 

[the sceptic]

yeah she did 3:59.04 in calgary (won) and 3:57.80 in salt lake city (2nd)

personal best is 3:57.35 from 2006

well I guess she could make the case she has been clean all along and train extra hard in olympics years. Find that extremely hard to believe though.

I dont really follow speed skating at all so its possible im missing something but that looks very suspicious to me.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think theorising on Neuner's retirement is probably a blind alley at least for the foreseeable future. I think we may see something similar from Fourcade as well. Fourcade has also been outspoken with regard to anti-doping, bringing the subject up without being asked on more than one occasion. He's also said he doesn't see himself staying in the sport forever. For Neuner, she'd achieved pretty much everything she could from the sport, Olympic golds, World championships, almost single-handedly winning a relay for example, the World Cup overall, and the thrill of victory to her had become devalued to the point of being meaningless, while the expectations of her became ever greater. The only thing left for her was to go for Forsberg's records. I've no doubt that if she stayed in the sport she'd have smashed them, since at the age Neuner retired Tora Berger had never podiumed a World Cup race (!!!), but obviously stat-padding did not appeal to her (and I can imagine for Fourcade, with Bjørndalen's records being far in excess of Forsberg's, this will apply as well). Her current pregnancy may also point us in the direction of an answer. She isn't the only one to retire young in similar circumstances of course - Helena Ekholm retired at the same time, and the Swedish team has fallen off a cliff since!

If Neuner were to have retired fed up having won everything clean and not been able to get the team to clean up, there would have to be some dissonance there. For example, her former roommate and close friend Miriam Gössner remains on the team. Would she have been part of the team doping while Neuner was competing clean, or would she have been a clean athlete similarly marooned in a doping team (and similarly lightning quick but unreliable)? They have remained close friends since Neuner's retirement, so if doping was a big personal issue for Neuner I would find it difficult to believe that, if the two were not in agreement on the issue, her relationship with Gössner has never so much as faltered. And if Neuner were to have retired in frustration at the inability to get the team to clean up, it is notable to see the drop-off in German results last season, both women and men. While people like Greis have the excuse of age, Arnd Peiffer dropped off the face of the planet last year. Tina Bachmann also, although she has since found a glandular condition that explains her slow decline from the pinnacle of the sport to the third division. If the doping continues in Germany, then how come they haven't been able to replace all of the retirees, especially in respect of the women's team, which currently consists of a 36-year-old who was there long before the various retirees, a 33-year-old XC skier, a 26-year-old who's reliable and talented but has never podiumed a World Cup race, a 23-year-old who's returning from a career- and disability-threatening injury and two Juniors? Why have those successful juniors of the last few years - Juliane Döll, Caro Hennecke, Karo Horchler, Lisa Voigt, Nicole Wötzel, Carolin Leunig, Miriam Behringer, Maren Hammerschmidt - not been able to make the step up?

I think it's too simple an answer to too complex a question.

 

[Cloxxki]

Excellent insights. Thanks so much for sharing.

Neuner sure is a riddle.

I once read of a retired biathlete who co-operated with IBU/WADA to determine the effects of EPO doping. Does anyone know what I'm referring to? I'd love to read more into that. If you have clean me, and an Armstrong style doped twin with >30% higher red blood cell count, how much does that matter for ski speed and recovery into the shooting range? Must be staggering...

I think theorising on Neuner's retirement is probably a blind alley at least for the foreseeable future. I think we may see something similar from Fourcade as well. Fourcade has also been outspoken with regard to anti-doping, bringing the subject up without being asked on more than one occasion. He's also said he doesn't see himself staying in the sport forever. For Neuner, she'd achieved pretty much everything she could from the sport, Olympic golds, World championships, almost single-handedly winning a relay for example, the World Cup overall, and the thrill of victory to her had become devalued to the point of being meaningless, while the expectations of her became ever greater. The only thing left for her was to go for Forsberg's records. I've no doubt that if she stayed in the sport she'd have smashed them, since at the age Neuner retired Tora Berger had never podiumed a World Cup race (!!!), but obviously stat-padding did not appeal to her (and I can imagine for Fourcade, with Bjørndalen's records being far in excess of Forsberg's, this will apply as well). Her current pregnancy may also point us in the direction of an answer. She isn't the only one to retire young in similar circumstances of course - Helena Ekholm retired at the same time, and the Swedish team has fallen off a cliff since!

If Neuner were to have retired fed up having won everything clean and not been able to get the team to clean up, there would have to be some dissonance there. For example, her former roommate and close friend Miriam Gössner remains on the team. Would she have been part of the team doping while Neuner was competing clean, or would she have been a clean athlete similarly marooned in a doping team (and similarly lightning quick but unreliable)? They have remained close friends since Neuner's retirement, so if doping was a big personal issue for Neuner I would find it difficult to believe that, if the two were not in agreement on the issue, her relationship with Gössner has never so much as faltered. And if Neuner were to have retired in frustration at the inability to get the team to clean up, it is notable to see the drop-off in German results last season, both women and men. While people like Greis have the excuse of age, Arnd Peiffer dropped off the face of the planet last year. Tina Bachmann also, although she has since found a glandular condition that explains her slow decline from the pinnacle of the sport to the third division. If the doping continues in Germany, then how come they haven't been able to replace all of the retirees, especially in respect of the women's team, which currently consists of a 36-year-old who was there long before the various retirees, a 33-year-old XC skier, a 26-year-old who's reliable and talented but has never podiumed a World Cup race, a 23-year-old who's returning from a career- and disability-threatening injury and two Juniors? Why have those successful juniors of the last few years - Juliane Döll, Caro Hennecke, Karo Horchler, Lisa Voigt, Nicole Wötzel, Carolin Leunig, Miriam Behringer, Maren Hammerschmidt - not been able to make the step up?

I think it's too simple an answer to too complex a question.

 

[Mr_H_G_Superman]

160 in Ramsau, 149 a week later in Sweden. Maybe altitude works for him as well.

Not necessarily. The "(k)" note on the Ramsau result means that the test was made capillary (whatever that means) and the result is consequently more uncertain.

 

[sida-mot]

What is up with there being more post-retirement values than ones from the time he was the best skier in the world (2 world cups, 3 world titles)?

The first table are tests taken at the sport center in his own town. I'm guessing he wasn't there a whole lot during the peak of his career.

While I agree that these tests aren't 100% proof of him being clean, I still think this is the way to go. Increase the transparency.

 

[Ferminal]

Did they measure retics back in those days?

 

[Nicko.]

Excellent insights. Thanks so much for sharing.

Neuner sure is a riddle.

I once read of a retired biathlete who co-operated with IBU/WADA to determine the effects of EPO doping. Does anyone know what I'm referring to? I'd love to read more into that. If you have clean me, and an Armstrong style doped twin with >30% higher red blood cell count, how much does that matter for ski speed and recovery into the shooting range? Must be staggering...

Probably Karl Grenemark participating in early EPO detection research by Ekblom, "Effect of erythropoietin administrationon on maximal aerobic power in man. Scand J Med Sci Sports 1: 88-93, 1991."

Karl said on live national TV that he was part of the study some two years after he quit biathlon.
His 10k capacity at the time was ~36min and he ran ~32min in the trial...
The test was double-blind (EPO/placebo) but he knew... no doubt.

 

[Cloxxki]

Thanks!

Yeah, EPO is not something a placebo would work for. Else everyone would be using THAT. Soigneurs hauling monsterboxes placebo vials around, and lying to riders about it.

36min-32min is really serious.
From 58.8 to 67.5 ml/kg/min or thereabouts. +14.8% in VO2 max.
http://www.runningforfitness.org/ca...min=32&sec=0&age=34&gender=M&Submit=Calculate
Figures supposing a dedicated runner of course. For a skier that may be more like 80+.

 

[Nicko.]

It's even more telling that his peak 10k running performance was ~34min when he was a WC-level elite biathlete.
After 1+ year off the elite training load (just casual running for fitness), 6 weeks of EPO brought him back and beyond his all time best

"No pain, more gain" ©

 

[Cloxxki]

Amazing.
And for cyclists : realize that 2 minutes on a 10k run is like 2 minutes up a 35 minutes hill climb. Imagine having live for pro sports, retire, take things less seriously, and then after some short be 2 minutes faster than you ever was. It takes you from the also-rans to the top contenders. After retirement.

If this test would be repeated today, it would be done on a rollerski treadmill. Much better data in terms of being sport-specific. Of simply using a SkiErg, especially for Loppet racers.

 

[Velo1ticker]

Norway opened a can of new super skiers. Golberg now wins a 10km classic. At the Lillehammer relays the #3 team was closing in on the #1. Gjerdalen (effectively #9 man of the Norwegians) closed like half a minute to the leaders.
.[/QUOTE]

Golberg was the world Jr Champion 10 km classic (oh what a surprise he could repeat a solid 10 km!)
Gjerdalen closing a 18 sek gap in snowy conditions only to loose time in the finsh (He was 29 sek slower than the best times and by the way he was Norway thrid man when it counted last WC).

So you din't see the fourth norwegian team finishing 8.

 

[Cloxxki]

So you din't see the fourth norwegian team finishing 8.

Didn't want to lay it on too thick

I did see Boe Jr. both out-skiing and out-shooting Martin Fourcade plus the rest of the Worldcup field.
The top guns of the NO team skip a race, and little Johannes takes over. Sprint and Pursuit, but in convincing style. He may well "pull a Boe", winning the whole thing. With such ski form, he might as well have started in Davos although 30km might not be his distance.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Press conference was funny though. Johannes was asked about whether his goal was to beat his brother. He said something like "I try to beat everyone else first before I think about beating Tarjei". It was clear from the context that he was meaning that he was more bothered about where he came in the field than where he came in relation to his brother, but it was worded in a way that inadvertently suggested that Tarjei was clearly the best in the world so Johannes would have to beat everybody else before he could consider beating Tarjei. Erik Lesser then got asked a question about ambitions and targets of the German team, and he promptly joked at Johannes' comment, saying something along the lines of the team working together and having a team where on the right day they can beat anybody "and once we can do that we can think about beating Tarjei Bø and his little brother. And now you can ask the next question to Anton [Shipulin]."

Erik Lesser is a great interview though. Usually very self-deprecating and honest about things, but prepared to have a laugh and poke gentle fun at others too. I miss his moustache.

 

[poupou]

Didn't want to lay it on too thick

I did see Boe Jr. both out-skiing and out-shooting Martin Fourcade plus the rest of the Worldcup field.
The top guns of the NO team skip a race, and little Johannes takes over. Sprint and Pursuit, but in convincing style. He may well "pull a Boe", winning the whole thing. With such ski form, he might as well have started in Davos although 30km might not be his distance.

Johannes didn't race the precedent week-end so he was fresher than his opponents. Olympic Games are closing so Norvegians are picking to get a spot in their team. Other nations do'nt have that kind of problems.