- May 13, 2011
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Cloxxki said:
ok, took me three months to be able to log back in to the forum...
Having raced a lot in Canada in the 80s and 90s, it is becoming clear to me why the guys I raced against would make it to the World Junior or World Cup level and then get absolutely killed. I would be around 3 minutes back of these guys in a 10km. If I'd done EPO (and been a decent responder - for me horrible recovery was (and still is) the issue, so HGH would be a better choice) then I would have been ahead of them. If these guys, who looked like they were boys racing men at the Thunder Bay World Cup, had done what the Russians and Norwegians were likely doing, then they would have had a fighting chance at a top 20, and the good ones might actually have been competitive.
Funny enough when racing at that time, the only guys and gals in Canada who raised eyebrows as to possible doping (save for the one notorious fellow who would have tested positive for alcohol the night before in multiple races) were cyclists.
- Apr 29, 2011
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poupou said:
Boe Jr efforts has been awarded with a spot on the olympic team and Lars Berger (one WC win this year) did not get the green light (not yet anyway). I have a feeling many people are looking forward to see the Italians or Austrians with no top result in the WC winning when it counts at the olympics. Pulling an Albarello.
- Jul 21, 2012
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http://www.eurosport.se/sport/norska-idrottare-anklagas-for-bloddopning_sto4090211/story.shtml
Norwegians doping? surely not
Norwegians doping? surely not
This is dynamite! Anti-Doping Norway's ABP-expert Mats Drange reviewed blood profiles from 2001-2007 and found clear evidence of EPO and blood doping.
http://www.vg.no/sport/artikkel.php?artid=10149928
It was in 2007 that Drange was tasked to set up a so-called "national blood profile program." It involved the collection of a number of blood values of Norwegian performers, in order to hunt abnormal variations in individual athletes. Such variation may suggest EPO use or traditional blood doping.
In this work as Drange also on older blood values back to 2001, to acquire knowledge. It was then that he discovered variations caused him to turn on the alarm Anti-Doping Norway.
"Several times, I had to double and triple check if I so voted, for having tried every possible explanations I could not find another answer to these results than blood doping," writes Drange in his book.
He claims to have found traces of both the banned substance EPO turbo, and blood transfusion of his own blood, the blood profiles of Norwegian performers. When the wacky variations also voted against major competitions, he decided to take matters further.
Later, in 2008, he sent the information anonymously to an international expert on blood values. The answer was not to be misunderstood: The tests indicated the use of blood transfusions or EPO.
Mads Drange does not mention the names of the performers in his book. He reveals neither sport. But according to the former doping hunter, there was talk athletes as both are active now, and earlier in the 2000s.
"The situation was difficult. We sat thus on information about both older and still active exercisers who probably did drugs currently or had drugged the former, but the information was of such a nature that it was impossible to take it further in any way other than to intensify the testing » it says in the book "The Great doping bluff."
In 2009 it was possible to establish disciplinary cases by the finding of abnormal blood values. Then Mads Drange immediate change in blood profiles of the affected athletes.
"Some stopped to dope themselves, while others are now almost always lay beneath the variability that was needed to run a case, even if the profile showed signs of manipulation," writes Drange.
Later in the book he comes following claim:
"... I also know that there are Norwegian elite athletes from several sports that have drugged him, and who still do drugs, even in a country in which for many years has been one of the leading testing programs in the world. "
http://www.vg.no/sport/artikkel.php?artid=10149928
It was in 2007 that Drange was tasked to set up a so-called "national blood profile program." It involved the collection of a number of blood values of Norwegian performers, in order to hunt abnormal variations in individual athletes. Such variation may suggest EPO use or traditional blood doping.
In this work as Drange also on older blood values back to 2001, to acquire knowledge. It was then that he discovered variations caused him to turn on the alarm Anti-Doping Norway.
"Several times, I had to double and triple check if I so voted, for having tried every possible explanations I could not find another answer to these results than blood doping," writes Drange in his book.
He claims to have found traces of both the banned substance EPO turbo, and blood transfusion of his own blood, the blood profiles of Norwegian performers. When the wacky variations also voted against major competitions, he decided to take matters further.
Later, in 2008, he sent the information anonymously to an international expert on blood values. The answer was not to be misunderstood: The tests indicated the use of blood transfusions or EPO.
Mads Drange does not mention the names of the performers in his book. He reveals neither sport. But according to the former doping hunter, there was talk athletes as both are active now, and earlier in the 2000s.
"The situation was difficult. We sat thus on information about both older and still active exercisers who probably did drugs currently or had drugged the former, but the information was of such a nature that it was impossible to take it further in any way other than to intensify the testing » it says in the book "The Great doping bluff."
In 2009 it was possible to establish disciplinary cases by the finding of abnormal blood values. Then Mads Drange immediate change in blood profiles of the affected athletes.
"Some stopped to dope themselves, while others are now almost always lay beneath the variability that was needed to run a case, even if the profile showed signs of manipulation," writes Drange.
Later in the book he comes following claim:
"... I also know that there are Norwegian elite athletes from several sports that have drugged him, and who still do drugs, even in a country in which for many years has been one of the leading testing programs in the world. "
Mads Kaggestad: "Mats Drange is the foremost blood doping expert in Norway"
http://www.vg.no/sport/artikkel.php?artid=10149961
http://www.vg.no/sport/artikkel.php?artid=10149961
Drange hevder han fant tegn til doping hos norske utøvere
http://www.nrk.no/sport/drange-hevder-han-fant-dopingspor-1.11471990
"The surprise was great when I eventually encountered profiles with a significantly larger variety, and often with considerable fluctuations in the short time that neither matched the height stays, illness or other factors."
Drange claims he found evidence of both EPO and blood transfusions in Norwegian profiles. In addition, they have been well with key competitions and championships.
The anonymous profile data were also sent to other researchers, who also gave feedback that they also saw evidence of the use of EPO in at least three of the athletes.
"We sat thus on information about both older and still active exercisers who probably did drugs currently or had drugged in the past, but the information was of such a nature that it was impossible to take it further in any way other than to intensify testing."
He describes EPO testing at the time like looking for a needle in a haystack.
"I started out in detail to monitor the athlete information, study the competition plans, analyzing previous test times and look for information that could lead to that we got a positive test. We saw that several of the athletes with abnormal samples often had suspicious behavior in terms of travel patterns and changing information at the last minute. Eventually I could in some cases anticipate the increase in hemoglobin concentrations or T / E ratio, because I had seen the pattern before and knew what they were doing. Yet it was impossible to do anything with them that concerned. urine samples came back negative every time, probably because they used testosterone there is no analysis, and blood transfusions it was difficult to prove directly."
Since 2009, blood profiles could be used as evidence, but it was too late. Drange argues that then also changed the behavior of several of the suspects themselves. He thinks several of them quit the dope then.
http://www.nrk.no/sport/drange-hevder-han-fant-dopingspor-1.11471990
"The surprise was great when I eventually encountered profiles with a significantly larger variety, and often with considerable fluctuations in the short time that neither matched the height stays, illness or other factors."
Drange claims he found evidence of both EPO and blood transfusions in Norwegian profiles. In addition, they have been well with key competitions and championships.
The anonymous profile data were also sent to other researchers, who also gave feedback that they also saw evidence of the use of EPO in at least three of the athletes.
"We sat thus on information about both older and still active exercisers who probably did drugs currently or had drugged in the past, but the information was of such a nature that it was impossible to take it further in any way other than to intensify testing."
He describes EPO testing at the time like looking for a needle in a haystack.
"I started out in detail to monitor the athlete information, study the competition plans, analyzing previous test times and look for information that could lead to that we got a positive test. We saw that several of the athletes with abnormal samples often had suspicious behavior in terms of travel patterns and changing information at the last minute. Eventually I could in some cases anticipate the increase in hemoglobin concentrations or T / E ratio, because I had seen the pattern before and knew what they were doing. Yet it was impossible to do anything with them that concerned. urine samples came back negative every time, probably because they used testosterone there is no analysis, and blood transfusions it was difficult to prove directly."
Since 2009, blood profiles could be used as evidence, but it was too late. Drange argues that then also changed the behavior of several of the suspects themselves. He thinks several of them quit the dope then.
- Sep 29, 2012
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- Sep 25, 2009
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few clarifications/additions
i was just about to press 'submit' and in the last moment noted that the news has been posted already. just to clarify:
(i) the mads drange revelations are NOT about the sport of xc skiing specifically, rather, in general and might include the xc but no names were mentioned.
(ii) the book is due to be launched tomorrow. so, no one, except a few in the media, yet saw the full content. likely much more will be revealed and the back and forth of denials and counter accusations will fill the pre-olympic space.
(iii) he is convinced that beating tests is still exceedingly easy as everyone in anti-doping knows. 'one has to be either stupid, have bad advisers or be very unlucky to get caught'.
(iv) pointed finger at both wada and ioc. believes that doping in norway is a minor problem compared to elsewhere.
my comment: drange's remarks on changing behavior and blood patters starting with the introduction of blood profiling, almost literally and chronolagically coinside with the observations of other researchers - an era of microdosing has arrived and is still around.
i was just about to press 'submit' and in the last moment noted that the news has been posted already. just to clarify:
(i) the mads drange revelations are NOT about the sport of xc skiing specifically, rather, in general and might include the xc but no names were mentioned.
(ii) the book is due to be launched tomorrow. so, no one, except a few in the media, yet saw the full content. likely much more will be revealed and the back and forth of denials and counter accusations will fill the pre-olympic space.
(iii) he is convinced that beating tests is still exceedingly easy as everyone in anti-doping knows. 'one has to be either stupid, have bad advisers or be very unlucky to get caught'.
(iv) pointed finger at both wada and ioc. believes that doping in norway is a minor problem compared to elsewhere.
my comment: drange's remarks on changing behavior and blood patters starting with the introduction of blood profiling, almost literally and chronolagically coinside with the observations of other researchers - an era of microdosing has arrived and is still around.
- May 19, 2010
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Drange's main message is, as the title of the book indicates, that the international anti doping work is a charade, it is not done primarly to catch the cheaters and make it possible to compete clean, it's main function is to make sports and the Olympics appear to be clean.
It took him years to understand this, but he got more and more frustrated and finally, last summer, he quit his job at Anti-doping Norge.
He says it is easy to dope and get away with it. You have to be either dumb, have bad advisers or be very unlucky to get caught. IOC doesn't want to catch dopers. WADA and the national ADA's are seriously underfunded. There is no will to give them what they need to be able to fight doping. Tests are not getting developed like they should, it takes years and decades to get things like the EPO-test and bio passport in place. It is common to say that the cheaters always are miles ahead of the anti-doping authorities, but the reason they are ahead is that we are letting them being ahead of us.
He writes about being certain that some Norwegian athletes, no sport or names mentioned, were/are doping because of suspicious blood profiles from 2001 and up, as mentioned in prior posts in this thread. He also says that he thinks that most Norwegian athletes are clean and that it is less doping in Norway than in other parts of the world.
It took him years to understand this, but he got more and more frustrated and finally, last summer, he quit his job at Anti-doping Norge.
He says it is easy to dope and get away with it. You have to be either dumb, have bad advisers or be very unlucky to get caught. IOC doesn't want to catch dopers. WADA and the national ADA's are seriously underfunded. There is no will to give them what they need to be able to fight doping. Tests are not getting developed like they should, it takes years and decades to get things like the EPO-test and bio passport in place. It is common to say that the cheaters always are miles ahead of the anti-doping authorities, but the reason they are ahead is that we are letting them being ahead of us.
He writes about being certain that some Norwegian athletes, no sport or names mentioned, were/are doping because of suspicious blood profiles from 2001 and up, as mentioned in prior posts in this thread. He also says that he thinks that most Norwegian athletes are clean and that it is less doping in Norway than in other parts of the world.
- Aug 9, 2012
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I was hoping the next big doping news is all the athletes who have tested positive on retesting from the 2006 olympics. I guess someone thought this was perfect timing for their new book.
What usually happens is that the inaccurate media forget essential parts when they are rewriting the background story, and important details go missing.
Here is one such important gem:
http://www.nrk.no/sport/drange-hevder-han-fant-dopingspor-1.11471990
In the book he says a group of experts he sent the suspicious profiles too, they saw signs of Epo usage in at least 3 of the profiles.
I interpret that to be there were 3 profiles that they all said were suspicious. Who they were and how many of them there were is not noted.
So who could these three athletes be? From my understanding the profiling started in 2001-2003. So it could be Kjærgård, Erik Tysse and some mystery athlete in a sport no one cares about like triathlon or pentathlon or something.
We don't know how many individuals were profiled. All we know is that ADN has responsibility for all sports in Norway.
Also nothing is mentioned AFAIK about any of the 3(who were now being hunted) having a drop off in performance after they quit doping, which he thinks they did when the Wada frame work made prosecution possible.
I don't think he has any medical backround or anything, so I'm not sure this is not someone that thinks he knows more than he actually knows in interpreting these profiles.
What usually happens is that the inaccurate media forget essential parts when they are rewriting the background story, and important details go missing.
Here is one such important gem:
http://www.nrk.no/sport/drange-hevder-han-fant-dopingspor-1.11471990
In the book he says a group of experts he sent the suspicious profiles too, they saw signs of Epo usage in at least 3 of the profiles.
I interpret that to be there were 3 profiles that they all said were suspicious. Who they were and how many of them there were is not noted.
So who could these three athletes be? From my understanding the profiling started in 2001-2003. So it could be Kjærgård, Erik Tysse and some mystery athlete in a sport no one cares about like triathlon or pentathlon or something.
We don't know how many individuals were profiled. All we know is that ADN has responsibility for all sports in Norway.
Also nothing is mentioned AFAIK about any of the 3(who were now being hunted) having a drop off in performance after they quit doping, which he thinks they did when the Wada frame work made prosecution possible.
I don't think he has any medical backround or anything, so I'm not sure this is not someone that thinks he knows more than he actually knows in interpreting these profiles.
- Aug 9, 2012
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Random Direction said:
Eh, so guys that were three minutes faster than you, would get beaten by talents from around the world at the top level? And obviously those 3 minutes are a great yardstick since you were "this" good, and anything beyond that would be impossible?
Could it be that you were actually at a pretty low level from the start, and that those who beat you were merely mediocre?
As for doping. There is still nothing indicating Norwegian doping in the 90s unless you are a conspiracy nut and/or think that skiing faster is only possible by becoming physically fitter.
- Jul 21, 2012
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you forgot that norwegians would never dope, and something about jealous haters, but other than that I think you got it covered. Good job.
- Aug 9, 2012
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the sceptic said:
Since Tysse and Kjærgaard are Norwegians, I can't see how I could have forgotten something that I don't believe written 2 posts above yours. And why would I call someone I suspect to be missinformed a "hater", when all I believe is that they lack knowledge?
- Jun 7, 2010
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Yes, the only people who may have been doping in Norway are ones who have already been caught or have admitted.
LOL
Edit: I forgot, also compete in sports nobody cares about
LOL
Edit: I forgot, also compete in sports nobody cares about
- Aug 9, 2012
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roundabout said:
It could be, or it could be the most famous ones.
http://www.nrk.no/sport/1.11475280
In the q/a he talks about the FEW(he used capital letters) suspected Norwegians and he also says he is pretty sure there is no organised doping in norwegian sports since it's too transparent, and reamphasizes that he is just talking about a few isolated cases.
There was a story in the Norwgian media a few months ago about a rape case involving a Norwegian national champion and a reality TV star.
So everyone wanted to know who these people were since they were anonymized.
Well it turns out it was a kickboxing champion(I was surprised that this was even a sport) from the 80s or 90s and the "star" was a reality contestant in a tv show 10-15 years ago.
The facts about the anonimized were correct, but those facts pointed to people who would be the last one would think of.
This book came out before the winter olympics. It could probably also have come out before the summer olympics, and the first thing one thinks about is those taking part in the summer olympics.
Norwegians are more interested in the winter sports than the summer sports, so when do you release a book? In the winter. Whether the mentioned examples are related to winter sports is immaterial, since everyone will just assume it is.
- May 19, 2010
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He quit his job and sold his flat and lived with no income for half a year staying at houses and flats of friends while writing this book. As for any Norwegian language book the market is limited to Norway. The chances that sales will cover what he lost from not earning anything for half a year are very slim. He would have made more money by keeping his job and not writing the book. Still almost every sports person saying something about the book says: "He is selling his book".
http://www.nrk.no/sport/_-for-stor-tillit-til-antidoping-1.11474303
Odd-Bjørn Hjelmeset:– I'm sure he is writing the book to make money.
Eirik Verås Larsen:
It is very foolish to make accusations like these. But the media likes it, that's why such claims are made. These claims are often made by people who may have a vested interest, to make money on a book or wanting publicity for a documentary.
Bjørn Maaseide:
His motive might be to sell more books.
Frode Estil:
If someone tries to make money by creating speculation it is not positive
http://www.vg.no/sport/artikkel.php?artid=10149958
Mads Kaggestad pointed out that this is the exact same treatment Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis got from the Armstrong mob.
http://www.tv2.no/2014/01/16/sport/sotsji/ol/vintersport/5231214
Heated discussion between Drange and president of the international biathlon union (IBU) Anders Besseberg: http://www.nrk.no/sport/drange-og-besseberg-diskuterte-dop-1.11475705
http://www.nrk.no/sport/_-for-stor-tillit-til-antidoping-1.11474303
Odd-Bjørn Hjelmeset:– I'm sure he is writing the book to make money.
Eirik Verås Larsen:
It is very foolish to make accusations like these. But the media likes it, that's why such claims are made. These claims are often made by people who may have a vested interest, to make money on a book or wanting publicity for a documentary.
Bjørn Maaseide:
His motive might be to sell more books.
Frode Estil:
If someone tries to make money by creating speculation it is not positive
http://www.vg.no/sport/artikkel.php?artid=10149958
Mads Kaggestad pointed out that this is the exact same treatment Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis got from the Armstrong mob.
http://www.tv2.no/2014/01/16/sport/sotsji/ol/vintersport/5231214
Heated discussion between Drange and president of the international biathlon union (IBU) Anders Besseberg: http://www.nrk.no/sport/drange-og-besseberg-diskuterte-dop-1.11475705
- Aug 9, 2012
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neineinei said:He quit his job and sold his flat and lived with no income for half a year staying at houses and flats of friends while writing this book. As for any Norwegian language book the market is limited to Norway. The chances that sales will cover what he lost from not earning anything for half a year are very slim. He would have made more money by keeping his job and not writing the book. Still almost every sports person saying something about the book says: "He is selling his book".
http://www.nrk.no/sport/_-for-stor-tillit-til-antidoping-1.11474303
Odd-Bjørn Hjelmeset:– I'm sure he is writing the book to make money.
Eirik Verås Larsen:
It is very foolish to make accusations like these. But the media likes it, that's why such claims are made. These claims are often made by people who may have a vested interest, to make money on a book or wanting publicity for a documentary.
Bjørn Maaseide:
His motive might be to sell more books.
Frode Estil:
If someone tries to make money by creating speculation it is not positive
http://www.vg.no/sport/artikkel.php?artid=10149958
Mads Kaggestad pointed out that this is the exact same treatment Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis got from the Armstrong mob.
http://www.tv2.no/2014/01/16/sport/sotsji/ol/vintersport/5231214
Heated discussion between Drange and president of the international biathlon union (IBU) Anders Besseberg: http://www.nrk.no/sport/drange-og-besseberg-diskuterte-dop-1.11475705
Tyler Hamilton did not come out with his book 2 weeks before the Tour de France.
He might not be doing it for the money, but the publisher is. They want to get as much from this as possible.
The problem in his book is using the example he is using. He is basically saying, I know there are three cheats, but I can't tell you, but I know, because I had proof that is inadmissible due to some law stuff. But it's true, it really is, I just couldn't back it up in the 4 years I chased them after the law stuff was sorted because they stopped doping.
He is basically making everyone a suspect.
And with the graphic on the book clearly meant for winter sports, it's clear this is marketing.
I believe Mads Drange wrote this book because he believes it must be told, but the problem is that his message gets lost in the examples he used.
AFAIK his message is about sports/IOC not spending enough money on anti doping. And he seems to believe that Norwegian sport is cleaner than the foreigners.
Even the doping hunter thinks Norwegians are the cleanest!
- Sep 25, 2009
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Drange does not trust anti doping but northug does
said the closest he witnessed doping was when he almost collapsed behind ‘inhuman’ shiryev.
northug: ‘endurance doping effects are extreme, particularly at elevation’
(i'd love to hear - honestly, no flame - his opinion if the superior waxing of his compatriots time and again was enough to destroy no less doped to eyeballs competitors in the 90s.)
Said he had a warning in 2012 for forgetting to notify ‘hunters’ of his location
http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/langrenn/artikkel.php?artid=10142602
said the closest he witnessed doping was when he almost collapsed behind ‘inhuman’ shiryev.
northug: ‘endurance doping effects are extreme, particularly at elevation’
(i'd love to hear - honestly, no flame - his opinion if the superior waxing of his compatriots time and again was enough to destroy no less doped to eyeballs competitors in the 90s.)
Said he had a warning in 2012 for forgetting to notify ‘hunters’ of his location
http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/langrenn/artikkel.php?artid=10142602
- Aug 9, 2012
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python said:
I suspect it depends on when you asked him. If it was after a race with really bad skis, the answer might be different than after a race with good skiis. We humans are usually like that unless we are aware of the biases affecting our thinking.
For example the Russians good skis in Lillehammer after a little assistance from Estils stone grinder.
What would Daniel Richardsson say after the classic race in Holmenkollen vs. the week before?
Daniel ended 42 3:12 off the winner while a week earlier he crushed the opposition.
Ask the same question of him and he might give two different answers.
He didn't loose his form in that week. It was all in the skis. In 2011 Norway's superiority in ski prep was marginal. 15-20 years before I think it was pretty substantial.
As for the comment about altitude, I think this is important. I have a theory that the real effect of oxygen Vector doping in XC only becomes apparent when at altitude. The ability to transport oxygen is not a limiting factor at normal sea level, but at high altitude it is.
But yes, it would be interesting to hear Northugs thoughts on the matter.
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