Doping in XC skiing

[BullsFan22]

Re:

the 1st mildronium case in the sport of xc skiing.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ski-russian-vichuzhanin-positive-meldonium-174308207.html

of course, it is a ...ruzs-ski. a promising world class junior and an u23 at his time.

one has to wonder what the fork is going on &#63

either those busted many-many months after the crap was added to the banned list are endlessly stupid (a possibility), or there is something in the crap that wada has not addressed adequately before rushing to ban mildonium.

like 'how long does the shyt stay in the body'. a basic scientific question.

sounds like the wada has no forking idea if the ukrainian biathlon mildronium cases postponement by the ubi are to be taken at face (not political !) value.

Legkov admitted to using it in the past, and he says he doesn't remember when he took it last. He also says that it's all political and that the drug isn't a PED. I've also read (Russian sports minister also said this), that a lot of Russians (lot's of non-athletes) have taken meldonium as sort of medication and recover, sometimes preventing death. Now the IBU is delaying the Ukranian positives because they don't know how long this was in their system, or if it's even a PED. My guess is that it's all of the above. Yes, it's probably used a lot, by athletes and non-athletes, for health but probably as a PED as well, but since it was around since the Soviet times, and that I am sure WADA knew about it, but only put it on the banned list january 1st, tells me that it's a political move as well. Just look at xenon. It virtually appeared out of nowhere in the media, then it died down, and you rarely hear of it. Same thing with this meldonium.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

the 1st mildronium case in the sport of xc skiing.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ski-russian-vichuzhanin-positive-meldonium-174308207.html

of course, it is a ...ruzs-ski. a promising world class junior and an u23 at his time.

one has to wonder what the fork is going on &#63

either those busted many-many months after the crap was added to the banned list are endlessly stupid (a possibility), or there is something in the crap that wada has not addressed adequately before rushing to ban mildonium.

like 'how long does the shyt stay in the body'. a basic scientific question.

sounds like the wada has no forking idea if the ukrainian biathlon mildronium cases postponement by the ubi are to be taken at face (not political !) value.

Legkov admitted to using it in the past, and he says he doesn't remember when he took it last. He also says that it's all political and that the drug isn't a PED. I've also read (Russian sports minister also said this), that a lot of Russians (lot's of non-athletes) have taken meldonium as sort of medication and recover, sometimes preventing death. Now the IBU is delaying the Ukranian positives because they don't know how long this was in their system, or if it's even a PED. My guess is that it's all of the above. Yes, it's probably used a lot, by athletes and non-athletes, for health but probably as a PED as well, but since it was around since the Soviet times, and that I am sure WADA knew about it, but only put it on the banned list january 1st, tells me that it's a political move as well. Just look at xenon. It virtually appeared out of nowhere in the media, then it died down, and you rarely hear of it. Same thing with this meldonium.

...some clarifications to the above mentioned cases seems have arrived:
Meldonium Suspensions Lifted for Three of Five Nordic Sports Offenders
http://fasterskier.com/blog/article/meldonium-suspensions-lifted-for-three-of-five-nordic-sports-offenders/

the reason for lifting the 3 suspensions is obviously they fit into the wada new concentration limit.

the other 2, while their meldoniun concentration was not made public, are probably above the threshold. i think the ibu's decision to wait for the results of wada studies concerning the fate of the 2 still suspended athletes is a sign of being reasonable

in the regard it is noteworthy, how the ibu and fis appear different from some other international feds, that decided to go ahead with the hearings, despite the wada studies not being completed.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

the 1st mildronium case in the sport of xc skiing.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ski-russian-vichuzhanin-positive-meldonium-174308207.html

of course, it is a ...ruzs-ski. a promising world class junior and an u23 at his time.

one has to wonder what the fork is going on &#63

either those busted many-many months after the crap was added to the banned list are endlessly stupid (a possibility), or there is something in the crap that wada has not addressed adequately before rushing to ban mildonium.

like 'how long does the shyt stay in the body'. a basic scientific question.

sounds like the wada has no forking idea if the ukrainian biathlon mildronium cases postponement by the ubi are to be taken at face (not political !) value.

Legkov admitted to using it in the past, and he says he doesn't remember when he took it last. He also says that it's all political and that the drug isn't a PED. I've also read (Russian sports minister also said this), that a lot of Russians (lot's of non-athletes) have taken meldonium as sort of medication and recover, sometimes preventing death. Now the IBU is delaying the Ukranian positives because they don't know how long this was in their system, or if it's even a PED. My guess is that it's all of the above. Yes, it's probably used a lot, by athletes and non-athletes, for health but probably as a PED as well, but since it was around since the Soviet times, and that I am sure WADA knew about it, but only put it on the banned list january 1st, tells me that it's a political move as well. Just look at xenon. It virtually appeared out of nowhere in the media, then it died down, and you rarely hear of it. Same thing with this meldonium.

...some clarifications to the above mentioned cases seems have arrived:
Meldonium Suspensions Lifted for Three of Five Nordic Sports Offenders
http://fasterskier.com/blog/article/meldonium-suspensions-lifted-for-three-of-five-nordic-sports-offenders/

the reason for lifting the 3 suspensions is obviously they fit into the wada new concentration limit.

the other 2, while their meldoniun concentration was not made public, are probably above the threshold. i think the ibu's decision to wait for the results of wada studies concerning the fate of the 2 still suspended athletes is a sign of being reasonable

in the regard it is noteworthy, how the ibu and fis appear different from some other international feds, that decided to go ahead with the hearings, despite the wada studies not being completed.

Call me crazy, but I hope they exonerate all athletes that have so far tested positive for Meldonium, I don't care if they are Russian, Ukranian, Norwegian, Swedish, Romanian or whatever. WADA went trigger-happy and knee-jerk reaction like to this. They had no idea what it did, or how long it's able to stay in the body, what you actually get from it, etc. They just saw something and ran with it. Now they are backpedaling. Anything to get at the Russians, it seems like.

 

[Dr.Guess]

Re: Re:

You forgot Olsson's 2010 Olympic Skiathlon performance, and Olsson's 2012 Nove Mesto performance (in fact, that entire season raises eyebrows-veerpalu would have been proud of racing about 5 wc races in a season and winning 3 of them), and Olsson's 2013 15km and especially 50km, the now legendary race where he led for close 40 km and skied alone after Cologna fell for, what, 30-35 km? In 2014 he again barely raced, citing illness and not being sure if he would even go to Sochi to race at all, then wins two medals. Last year he did the same exact thing, this time winning 3 medals. One of them a gold, in the 15km skate. This guy is either one of the most mentally tough, most talented, most confident athletes that has ever lived or he took a few pages out of Muehlegg and Veerpalu's books. I actually like the guy, he is relatively modest and doesn't ask for favors and let's his skiing do the talking. That said, he has had some of the more eye opening performances of the past five or six years.

Yeah, I am struggling with not suspecting Olsson, for all the reasons you mention, but also because of his stories of isolating himself from his family, living alone in a cabin training, to sacrifice it all for another gold. Either he is heroic (not so heroic sacrificing one's family, though…), or doing like many other liars; overelaborating his lie. The Veerpalu comparison is pretty spot on, when it comes to performance. Having said that, I am still a fan and will let someone else prove me wrong. That 50 km 2013 I actually file in the ONE focused push category, where the rest of the field were acting immature not making even an improvised coordinated effort to close the gap. Olsson broke away, skied in perfect conditions, alone, doing his own race, his preferred modus operandi. That race is remarkable, but not in the Mühlegg/MJS/Ustiugov category.

Being a Swedish cross country fan thruogh the 90's, it was all a very prolonged wtf?-moment. How come all other nations are so good? Why are Swedes suddenly crap? I have the same feeling this season. Looking through World Cup, World Championship and Olympics results over the last 40 years, Swedish performance was stellar in the 80's, crap in 90's, again stellar in early 00's, then crap late 00's, then again stellar (in the championships) in the early 10's. In the 90's and 00's, Swedish performance follows an inversed curve of EPO-usage. The 90's saw heavy EPO use. Early 00's saw the the introduction of EPO-testing, followed in late 00's by more advanced microdosing usage of EPO and similar PED's. More rigorous blood passports were introduced in the final years of the 00's, right? Google fails me when trying to confirm that for cross country skiing. From early 10's I don't really know, someone help me out… Anyway, in hindsight I sincerely believe that the Swedes raced clean(er) through the 90's and 00's, and the fan boy in me wants to believe that still is the case. But for Olsson, it looks kind of weird. Kalla after 2012 Norwegian training, suspicious. Emelie Öhrstig, coming from a career in cycling, taking a World Championship gold in sprint 2005, quitting 2006, that never felt quite right. There's probably more Swedish weirdness, mainly the Sochi success, but those races seem so convoluted in regards to PED's, that I hardly even have an opinion.

Sweden probably was doing blood doping and EPO in the late 80s (Gunde et al) but stopped when all the swedish orientaters started dying in the woods from all the free EPO they got from the swedish sport institute in Ostersund. (Highly speculative of course )
But yeah, it feels good to be a swedish fan when talking about that period. And Mogren's gold in 93 we shall not talk about.
What I want to talk about is Magdalena Forsberg though. I heroine of mine from my younger youth who won more than anyone could have hoped for with a miracle coach (Wolfgang Pichler) and new, harder training methods. She was probably on the EPO right?

Anyway, xc- skiing these days
I went to norway this winter to ski downhill at Skeicampen and saw with my own eyes how much they like their cross country skiing. But as someone pointed out, the Kenya comparison is bulls eys.

 

[Random Direction]

Boom. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/13/sports/russia-doping-sochi-olympics-2014.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Dozens of Russian athletes at the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi, including at least 15 medal winners, were part of a state-run doping program, meticulously planned for years to ensure dominance at the Games, according to the director of the country’s antidoping laboratory at the time.

The director, Grigory Rodchenkov, who ran the laboratory that handled testing for thousands of Olympians, said he developed a three-drug cocktail of banned substances that he mixed with liquor and provided to dozens of Russian athletes, helping to facilitate one of the most elaborate — and successful — doping ploys in sports history.

It involved some of Russia’s biggest stars of the Games, including 14 members of its cross-country ski team and two veteran bobsledders who won two golds.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Boom. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/13/sports/russia-doping-sochi-olympics-2014.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Dozens of Russian athletes at the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi, including at least 15 medal winners, were part of a state-run doping program, meticulously planned for years to ensure dominance at the Games, according to the director of the country’s antidoping laboratory at the time.

The director, Grigory Rodchenkov, who ran the laboratory that handled testing for thousands of Olympians, said he developed a three-drug cocktail of banned substances that he mixed with liquor and provided to dozens of Russian athletes, helping to facilitate one of the most elaborate — and successful — doping ploys in sports history.

It involved some of Russia’s biggest stars of the Games, including 14 members of its cross-country ski team and two veteran bobsledders who won two golds.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/17/sports/olympics-anti-doping-official-says-us-covered-up.html

Bet the NYT forgot about this. Or they were told to forget it.

 

[John de Savage]

Good thing Cologna and the swedes proved you can win clean against glowing russians.

Men's Skiathlon 15/15 km C/F

1 COLOGNA Dario SUI 1:08:15.4
2 HELLNER Marcus SWE +0.4
3 SUNDBY Martin Johnsrud NOR +1.4
4 VYLEGZHANIN Maxim RUS +1.5
5 CHERNOUSOV Ilia RUS +13.6
6 GAILLARD Jean Marc FRA +14.4
7 RICHARDSSON Daniel SWE +16.3
8 MANIFICAT Maurice FRA +18.2
9 NELSON Lars SWE +22.3
10 LEGKOV Alexander RUS +27.7 (I think he broke a pole)

Men's 15 km C

1 COLOGNA Dario SUI 38:29.7
2 OLSSON Johan SWE +28.5
3 RICHARDSSON Daniel SWE +38.8
4 NISKANEN Iivo FIN +39.0
5 BAUER Lukas CZE +58.9
6 JESPERSEN Chris Andre NOR +1:00.9
7 BESSMERTNYKH Alexander RUS +1:08.0
8 TEICHMANN Axel GER +1:12.7
9 POLTORANIN Alexey KAZ +1:13.5
10 HELLNER Marcus SWE +1:17.2

Men's Relay 4x10 km M

1 SWEDEN 1:28:42.0
2 RUSSIAN FEDERATION +27.3
3 FRANCE +31.9
4 NORWAY +1:09.7
5 ITALY +1:22.7

Men's 50 km F Mst

1 LEGKOV Alexander RUS 1:46:55.2
2 VYLEGZHANIN Maxim RUS +0.7
3 CHERNOUSOV Ilia RUS +0.8
4 SUNDBY Martin Johnsrud NOR +1.0
5 DOLIDOVICH Sergei BLR +14.3
6 DUVILLARD Robin FRA +14.9
7 SOEDERGREN Anders SWE +17.8
8 RICHARDSSON Daniel SWE +24.4
9 OLSSON Johan SWE +32.1
10 NISKANEN Iivo FIN +32.3
(Cologna broke a pole putting him out of contention.)

 

[Dr.Guess]

"Think of the winning margins without those doped Russians." Swedish media...
(Joke of course)

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Good thing Cologna and the swedes proved you can win clean against glowing russians.

Men's Skiathlon 15/15 km C/F

1 COLOGNA Dario SUI 1:08:15.4
2 HELLNER Marcus SWE +0.4
3 SUNDBY Martin Johnsrud NOR +1.4
4 VYLEGZHANIN Maxim RUS +1.5
5 CHERNOUSOV Ilia RUS +13.6
6 GAILLARD Jean Marc FRA +14.4
7 RICHARDSSON Daniel SWE +16.3
8 MANIFICAT Maurice FRA +18.2
9 NELSON Lars SWE +22.3
10 LEGKOV Alexander RUS +27.7 (I think he broke a pole)

Men's 15 km C

1 COLOGNA Dario SUI 38:29.7
2 OLSSON Johan SWE +28.5
3 RICHARDSSON Daniel SWE +38.8
4 NISKANEN Iivo FIN +39.0
5 BAUER Lukas CZE +58.9
6 JESPERSEN Chris Andre NOR +1:00.9
7 BESSMERTNYKH Alexander RUS +1:08.0
8 TEICHMANN Axel GER +1:12.7
9 POLTORANIN Alexey KAZ +1:13.5
10 HELLNER Marcus SWE +1:17.2

Men's Relay 4x10 km M

1 SWEDEN 1:28:42.0
2 RUSSIAN FEDERATION +27.3
3 FRANCE +31.9
4 NORWAY +1:09.7
5 ITALY +1:22.7

Men's 50 km F Mst

1 LEGKOV Alexander RUS 1:46:55.2
2 VYLEGZHANIN Maxim RUS +0.7
3 CHERNOUSOV Ilia RUS +0.8
4 SUNDBY Martin Johnsrud NOR +1.0
5 DOLIDOVICH Sergei BLR +14.3
6 DUVILLARD Robin FRA +14.9
7 SOEDERGREN Anders SWE +17.8
8 RICHARDSSON Daniel SWE +24.4
9 OLSSON Johan SWE +32.1
10 NISKANEN Iivo FIN +32.3
(Cologna broke a pole putting him out of contention.)

Look at the gaps in that 50k. There was a big group (as there usually is) all the way up until the base of that final, long hill. Basically for 47-48 km, there was nothing to separate that top 30 or so skiers (maybe more). What happened in the 15km classic, relay, team sprint, 30km skiathlon where the Russians didn't win gold? They were very close in the team sprint, where Germany fell. Kriukov and Vylegzhanin would have won that race, had Kriukov not been troubled by Tscharnke's crash. I am fairly certain of that. But let's look at the other races. Did the Russians miss the dope in the other races? The relay was dominated basically from start to finish by the Swedish men. The only Russian that skied a good leg was Legkov. The other three were mediocre. The skiathlon, the supposedly doped Vylegzhanin was beaten by Cologna, Hellner and Sundby. Sundby's medal is questionable, as he went into Vylegzhanin's lane in the finish straight. Legkov did break a pole in the last couple k, but he didn't look convincing, IMO. He would have had a hard time to win a medal. Cologna absolutely crushed the 15km and hardly looked out of breath. The Swedes? One of them is the famous (or is he infamous?) Olsson, the guy who disappears most of the season only to pop out when the medals are at stake at World's and Olympics. The guy is more fishy than any Russian, in my humble opinion. Richardsson also had a shaky year (hey, at least he did some races, unlike Olsson, who probably chose to micro dose a little bit more just to make sure). Kalla in the anchor leg of the relay. That was probably more impressive than Legkov, and she did it with 5km less. Herrmann and Lahtenmaeki weren't going all out, they were playing cat and mouse, but weren't exactly hot dogging it either. What about the skiathlon, where Kalla broke apart the race on the biggest hill on the course? Where were the Russian women? Not medaling, that's for sure.

Women's 30km. Norwegian women break away after 10 or so km. Sure, they didn't change skis, but does that explain the Gewiss, Mapei, USPS, Telekom, Saeco, Festina-like dominance? Not sure.

Women's team sprint. That truly was a sprint. No relent whatsoever from Oestberg or Bjoergen. The only other skier anywhere close with the Norwegians was Kowalczyk. I think I know what most here think of her. She crushed the 10km classic much like Cologna did the 15km.

 

[Rider]

Re:

(Cologna broke a pole putting him out of contention.)

It is not important but ski, not a pole.

 

[Rider]

Alexander hold a press-conference, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYNrxqwaMMA

Main message: I did not come from nowhere. Before Sochi and after Sochi I won numerous events, including TDS, WC distance, Holmenkollen marathon. Here are the results of doping inspections I had for the last years, all clean.

 

[BullsFan22]

Alexander hold a press-conference, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYNrxqwaMMA

Main message: I did not come from nowhere. Before Sochi and after Sochi I won numerous events, including TDS, WC distance, Holmenkollen marathon. Here are the results of doping inspections I had for the last years, all clean.

From the footage of the entire interview, I heard only one non-Russia media member. I guess they'll be making their own press conferences detailing all the cocktail parties. Shocking that there were no allegations of vodka use.
As far as Legkov is concerned, he seemed convincing. Sometimes you hear stuttering, sometimes it's anger, sometimes it's the facial expressions. Legkov didn't seem too phased. I get it, hardly any foreign journalists were there, but still. These guys know that this will be seen by many outside of Russia. Obviously I don't know Legkov personally, but he always struck me as a good person. I've heard from one or two people on a national team that he is a friendly guy. He's respected among his peers and he often trains with foreigners, Swiss, Norwegian, German, Austrian...Particularly after he moved from Russia to Switzerland to train with Burgermeister and Knauthe. I am glad to see him emphasizing this several times. He even said that they could ask Reto and Isabele about the training and testing they did. He said in the press conference how many times he's been tested and that his coaches encouraged him and others in that group to keep their test results with them. I think that's smart. I don't think I've heard that ever spoken of in the world of cross country, at least not as directly as Legkov did. Then again, he's being accused of something serious, so he and the accused have to react. It would be a shame if his achievements get taken away from him, while more blatant dopers like Sundby and Bjoergen get to stroll around like heroes. We know that those skiers will never get touched.

 

[python]

"http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1919618#p1919618
Then again, he's being accused of something serious, so he and the accused have to react.

the stooge said besides alex there are another 13 xc skier on his doping list. the sochi team included 22. means many more questions will be raised. one thingis clear - just about all top, including vyleg, kriukov, ustiugov etc is likely implicated. why the article chose to disclose only legkov ? i guess, to prolong the agony, but mostly to keep some powder dry b/c the stooge is preparing for a court fight. there is no positive test. so, for any arbitration to make sense, there's a need to rely on more than just to stooge's word. a collaboration from the germany based whistle blower isn't enogh...the creep needs at least some athletes to second his story. the one who is the most pissed or mad ? i am afraid, the vialbe stupidity and her insensitive methods can produce such.

it will be a test for fis if they decide to open the investigation or a hearing into legkov and others. right now i recon, they are waiting for the wada verdict due next week. the amazing thing is that their sports ministry knew of the scum defection, knew his dodgy nature (i mean, if i could predict him here, they sure had the clue), yet they seem in a wow..

as sad as the situation looks, this was probably just a beginning.

 

[BullsFan22]

"http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1919618#p1919618
Then again, he's being accused of something serious, so he and the accused have to react.

the stooge said besides alex there are another 13 xc skier on his doping list. the sochi team included 22. means many more questions will be raised. one thingis clear - just about all top, including vyleg, kriukov, ustiugov etc is likely implicated. why the article chose to disclose only legkov ? i guess, to prolong the agony, but mostly to keep some powder dry b/c the stooge is preparing for a court fight. there is no positive test. so, for any arbitration to make sense, there's a need to rely on more than just to stooge's word. a collaboration from the germany based whistle blower isn't enogh...the creep needs at least some athletes to second his story. the one who is the most pissed or mad ? i am afraid, the vialbe stupidity and her insensitive methods can produce such.

it will be a test for fis if they decide to open the investigation or a hearing into legkov and others. right now i recon, they are waiting for the wada verdict due next week. the amazing thing is that their sports ministry knew of the scum defection, knew his dodgy nature (i mean, if i could predict him here, they sure had the clue), yet they seem in a wow..

as sad as the situation looks, this was probably just a beginning.

I hope that Legkov isn't guilty of anything and his career doesn't end like this, at the hands of someone who conveniently left his job/was fired. For having been accused of doping, he didn't have that much time to respond, and as they said in that press conference, Legkov and Zubkov came to the conference on their own terms, voluntarily. I think that's commendable. I don't really follow skeleton and bobsled, so I can't really talk of Zubkov, but I've followed cross country ski racing for a while now and as I said in the previous comment, Legkov has an impressive resume. Why was there no investigation after Vancouver? Rodchenkov worked at RUSADA and was well entrenched there at the time. Where was Hajo Seppelt? He worked with ARD at the time. Legkov won the Tour de Ski in 2013, he won that Holmenkollen 50 that season as well. I bet Hajo Seppelt hadn't even heard of Legkov at that point. If meldonium is so widely spread, and was around since the Soviet times, how come it took them until now to bring this to light? I honestly hope Legkov's name isn't tarnished by the anti-Russian movement that's been spreading like wildfire the last few months in the world of sport. To me it's a bigger version of when the English speaking world attacked Spanish and Italian athletes for cheating not that long ago. Now that it's Russia, it's blown up. I think this little bit from the NYT article sums it up:

"None of the athletes were caught doping. More important, Russia won the most medals of the Games, easily surpassing its main rival, the United States, and undermining the integrity of one of the world’s most prestigious sporting events."

 

[Discgear]

"http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1919618#p1919618
If meldonium is so widely spread, and was around since the Soviet times, how come it took them until now to bring this to light? I honestly hope Legkov's name isn't tarnished by the anti-Russian movement that's been spreading like wildfire the last few months in the world of sport. To me it's a bigger version of when the English speaking world attacked Spanish and Italian athletes for cheating not that long ago. Now that it's Russia, it's blown up. I think this little bit from the NYT article sums it up:

"None of the athletes were caught doping. More important, Russia won the most medals of the Games, easily surpassing its main rival, the United States, and undermining the integrity of one of the world’s most prestigious sporting events."

Couldn't agree more. There's a massive propaganda war going on for the moment. Who knows what kind of pay off the Russian defector/whistleblower got from US? Anyhow, wasn't it Antidoping Norge that helped RUSADA before the Sotchi Olympics?

 

[BullsFan22]

"http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1919618#p1919618
If meldonium is so widely spread, and was around since the Soviet times, how come it took them until now to bring this to light? I honestly hope Legkov's name isn't tarnished by the anti-Russian movement that's been spreading like wildfire the last few months in the world of sport. To me it's a bigger version of when the English speaking world attacked Spanish and Italian athletes for cheating not that long ago. Now that it's Russia, it's blown up. I think this little bit from the NYT article sums it up:

"None of the athletes were caught doping. More important, Russia won the most medals of the Games, easily surpassing its main rival, the United States, and undermining the integrity of one of the world’s most prestigious sporting events."

Couldn't agree more. There's a massive propaganda war going on for the moment. Who knows what kind of pay off the Russian defector/whistleblower got from US? Anyhow, wasn't it Antidoping Norge that helped RUSADA before the Sotchi Olympics?

I don't know about Norway helping Russia with the anti-doping. That's news to me, if it's true. If it is true, it's certainly not being talked about in the media. I hope that if it's true, that the Russians use that as an example. The did talk about, in the time they had, that they had a number of foreign anti-doping agencies and individuals they worked with prior to, during and are still working with to help them with their lab(s). He guy didn't mention names of the doctors/specialists nor did he say which countries they were from. He should have done that. Perhaps they are just gathering their evidence as much as Rodchenkov and whoever is feeding him are.

 

[Discgear]

"http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1919618#p1919618
If meldonium is so widely spread, and was around since the Soviet times, how come it took them until now to bring this to light? I honestly hope Legkov's name isn't tarnished by the anti-Russian movement that's been spreading like wildfire the last few months in the world of sport. To me it's a bigger version of when the English speaking world attacked Spanish and Italian athletes for cheating not that long ago.

Couldn't agree more. There's a massive propaganda war going on for the moment. Who knows what kind of pay off the Russian defector/whistleblower got from US? Anyhow, wasn't it Antidoping Norge that helped RUSADA before the Sotchi Olympics?

I don't know about Norway helping Russia with the anti-doping. That's news to me, if it's true. If it is true, it's certainly not being talked about in the media. I hope that if it's true, that the Russians use that as an example. The did talk about, in the time they had, that they had a number of foreign anti-doping agencies and individuals they worked with prior to, during and are still working with to help them with their lab(s). He guy didn't mention names of the doctors/specialists nor did he say which countries they were from. He should have done that. Perhaps they are just gathering their evidence as much as Rodchenkov and whoever is feeding him are.

https://issuu.com/antidopingnorge/docs/adn_rusada

Some quotes from the pdf:
With the initiative from WADA, the three parties (WADA, ADN and RUSADA) identified a project plan in 2009.The plan aimed at a three-year collaboration with the objective to consolidate mutual efforts in the fight against doping in sport sharing experience....
The Anti-doping Norway-RUSADA collaboration was marked by a series of special projects. Every year three meetings took place, two in Norway, and one in Moscow ...

Finally:
Russia is a broad and significant sport nation. From our point of view, RUSADA has achieved a lot since we started our co-operation in 2009, and I am sure that this kind of collaboration is of great value for the development of the global fight against doping in sport. We're looking forward to assist and to learn from the Russians in the years to come. Anders Solheim, CEO of Anti-Doping Norway

This was written in march 2012.

 

[BullsFan22]

Thanks for link. If I were the Russians, I would take that information and use it when providing more information regarding testing and collaboration from other nations. That, plus testing results from people like Legkov, Chernousov, Ustyugov, etc who are trained by foreign specialists rather than some 70 or 80 year old former Soviet coach. I think having athletes come forward and presenting facts right away is good. Legkov presenting some data at the press conference was smart. However, I don't know how much some of those hyenas (NYT, Seppelt, Rodchenkov, etc) would actually care at this point (or any other point, really). Not much has been said publicly by their peers. No words from Northug, Cologna, Hellner, Sundby, Olsson, the French, the Italians...I only found Oystein Pettersen's twitter account where he said he had hoped that the stories are false regarding Legkov. It doesn't necessarily mean he is considering the stories false, it just means that he's being thoughtful and hoping that it's just false rumors. Probably a lot more pragmatic than some of comments you read on winter sports outlets like Fasterskier, where some comments are 'what a surprise...' or 'ban them for life and don't let them compete in 2018...' Then again, anytime a Russian is in the news in American media, it's usually a bad sign for the American public, whatever the story is.

 

[olhell]

Couldn't agree more. There's a massive propaganda war going on for the moment. Who knows what kind of pay off the Russian defector/whistleblower got from US? Anyhow, wasn't it Antidoping Norge that helped RUSADA before the Sotchi Olympics?

I don't know about Norway helping Russia with the anti-doping. That's news to me, if it's true. If it is true, it's certainly not being talked about in the media. I hope that if it's true, that the Russians use that as an example. The did talk about, in the time they had, that they had a number of foreign anti-doping agencies and individuals they worked with prior to, during and are still working with to help them with their lab(s). He guy didn't mention names of the doctors/specialists nor did he say which countries they were from. He should have done that. Perhaps they are just gathering their evidence as much as Rodchenkov and whoever is feeding him are.

Norwegian media has had some articles about this the last week. According to ADN the russians ended the collaboration November/December 2013.

(In Norwegian)...:
http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/antidoping-norge-ble-skjoevet-ut-av-ol-samarbeidet-med-russland/a/23683733/

http://www.nrk.no/sport/_-norske-kontrollorer-var-ikke-onsket-i-ol-i-sotsji-1.12945843

http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/idrettspolitikk/Norge-brukte-1_5-millioner-pa-antidopingarbeid-i-Russland-Kort-tid-for-OL-kjolnet-samarbeidet-747494_1.snd

 

[python]

"http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1919618#p1919618
If meldonium is so widely spread, and was around since the Soviet times, how come it took them until now to bring this to light? I honestly hope Legkov's name isn't tarnished by the anti-Russian movement that's been spreading like wildfire the last few months in the world of sport. To me it's a bigger version of when the English speaking world attacked Spanish and Italian athletes for cheating not that long ago. Now that it's Russia, it's blown up. I think this little bit from the NYT article sums it up:

"None of the athletes were caught doping. More important, Russia won the most medals of the Games, easily surpassing its main rival, the United States, and undermining the integrity of one of the world’s most prestigious sporting events."

Couldn't agree more. There's a massive propaganda war going on for the moment. Who knows what kind of pay off the Russian defector/whistleblower got from US? Anyhow, wasn't it Antidoping Norge that helped RUSADA before the Sotchi Olympics?

true, the antidoping norge cooperated with rusada until the sochi organizers became cold towards them...but think about it: would you want to learn fishing from a fisherman who catches no fish

on the other hand, would they be in less trouble if the russians learned the 'right' fishing ?

 

[Discgear]

"http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1919618#p1919618
If meldonium is so widely spread, and was around since the Soviet times, how come it took them until now to bring this to light? I honestly hope Legkov's name isn't tarnished by the anti-Russian movement that's been spreading like wildfire the last few months in the world of sport. To me it's a bigger version of when the English speaking world attacked Spanish and Italian athletes for cheating not that long ago. Now that it's Russia, it's blown up. I think this little bit from the NYT article sums it up:

"None of the athletes were caught doping. More important, Russia won the most medals of the Games, easily surpassing its main rival, the United States, and undermining the integrity of one of the world’s most prestigious sporting events."

Couldn't agree more. There's a massive propaganda war going on for the moment. Who knows what kind of pay off the Russian defector/whistleblower got from US? Anyhow, wasn't it Antidoping Norge that helped RUSADA before the Sotchi Olympics?

true, the antidoping norge cooperated with rusada until the sochi organizers became cold towards them...but think about it: would you want to learn fishing from a fisherman who catches no fish

on the other hand, would they be in less trouble if the russians learned the 'right' fishing ?

Haha

 

[BullsFan22]

I know it's been two months since news of 'allegations' of doping by Russian skiers in Sochi, but are they waiting when it's close to the season, the world championships or perhaps on the eve of the 2018 olympics, to announce 'findings?' Legkov, Vylegzhanin and the rest of the Russians are training, continuing their preparations for the next season. They post on instagram, there is a roller ski race in St. Petersburg today where a lot of the top skiers/biathletes will take part in. Will Seppelt/Rodchenkov continue their agenda? FIS did confirm what Legkov said, of how many times he was tested and that he passed all the tests. Not sure where and how the story of manipulating test samples through that 'wall hole,' will go.

Anyone still care about this, during the summer months?

 

[V3R1T4S]

Anyone still care about this, during the summer months?

Definitely. Unfortunately I think only the IOC threatening to ban Russian winter sports from PyeongChang would bring any sort of action. For that, I think there needs to be another set of revelations. It seems that in lieu of pursuing individual sanctions the IOC just sanctioned Russia from Rio. This might have been better than hoped; of course the allegations are true but how would you use them to conclusively prove any individual athlete doped. The irony is the Sochi evidence was the nail in the coffin for Russian summer athletes but not the winter ones -- as of yet. Probably because the fuse was already lit with Russian Track & Field, which is why I'm guessing that it would take another winter sport revelation for the winter sport fuse to blow.

I'm sure there is plenty more there but Seppelt, for example, is moving on to digging into Kenya. Also, aside from people like us no one seems that interested in seeing the truth brought out in winter sports; it only came about for Rio because of politics. Even Norway, the biggest ski nation by far, has a collective groupthink to put their head in the sand with all things doping and assume a smug arrogance. The sad thing is at the end of the day athletes are hardly treated better than race horses. Bend over, take this shot, shut-up, and you will be able to continue performing. I'd wager that a majority of gold medal winning athletes don't even earn minimum wage in most first world countries. With that kinda of expendability no wonder we haven't heard athletes speak up. I mean, we've heard grumblings before but there has never been any action.

Ironically I think skiing is small enough that a good example COULD be set. If the Norwegians really want to keep skiing alive - and they are really the only country that can lead this - they need to be more open about their training, talk openly about how things are different from the '90s (yes, including God Bjørn), etc., instead of the smug arrogance noted above. It might seem like an unfair standard but with great power comes great responsibility. Otherwise, because of their national obsession they are just like an adult entering a kiddie foot race and people are quickly becoming less impressed, no matter the results.

 

[BullsFan22]

Anyone still care about this, during the summer months?

Definitely. Unfortunately I think only the IOC threatening to ban Russian winter sports from PyeongChang would bring any sort of action. For that, I think there needs to be another set of revelations. It seems that in lieu of pursuing individual sanctions the IOC just sanctioned Russia from Rio. This might have been better than hoped; of course the allegations are true but how would you use them to conclusively prove any individual athlete doped. The irony is the Sochi evidence was the nail in the coffin for Russian summer athletes but not the winter ones -- as of yet. Probably because the fuse was already lit with Russian Track & Field, which is why I'm guessing that it would take another winter sport revelation for the winter sport fuse to blow.

I'm sure there is plenty more there but Seppelt, for example, is moving on to digging into Kenya. Also, aside from people like us no one seems that interested in seeing the truth brought out in winter sports; it only came about for Rio because of politics. Even Norway, the biggest ski nation by far, has a collective groupthink to put their head in the sand with all things doping and assume a smug arrogance. The sad thing is at the end of the day athletes are hardly treated better than race horses. Bend over, take this shot, shut-up, and you will be able to continue performing. I'd wager that a majority of gold medal winning athletes don't even earn minimum wage in most first world countries. With that kinda of expendability no wonder we haven't heard athletes speak up. I mean, we've heard grumblings before but there has never been any action.

Ironically I think skiing is small enough that a good example COULD be set. If the Norwegians really want to keep skiing alive - and they are really the only country that can lead this - they need to be more open about their training, talk openly about how things are different from the '90s (yes, including God Bjørn), etc., instead of the smug arrogance noted above. It might seem like an unfair standard but with great power comes great responsibility. Otherwise, because of their national obsession they are just like an adult entering a kiddie foot race and people are quickly becoming less impressed, no matter the results.

We certainly don't know how true the allegations really are. Seppelt and his team gets funding from ARD, which in turn gets funding from the German government. The timing of the investigations and focusing more or less on Russia is thought provoking, to say the least.

The Norwegians won't do anything because they are more blatant than the Russians. Perhaps doping isn't as obvious in today's skiing as it was when Daehlie was jump skating in races, skiing with doped Italians and Finns, but it's still there. The Norwegians dominating from start to finish this past season really put a damper in the world of skiing. Sundby looked hardly gassed. The guy apparently trains 1000 hours a year, yet still has the suppleness in his muscles to ski fast from November to March. Something just isn't right there. And I can't wait to see what Bjoergen will do after a year off due to pregnancy.

It would be a massive shame if guys like Legkov and Vylegzhanin get busted while people like Sundby get promoted to 50k gold from Sochi.

 

[V3R1T4S]

I agree the Norwegians are as sketchy as anything in the past. You would think with their sheer dominance and huge national/financial support structure (relatively speaking) they could *try* to do it right for one season. Kinda like how you see some cyclists blow the doors off one season then become 'normal' once they sign a big contract. I bet they'd still do alright given the shallow pool of competitors right now.

Either way, the more lopsided the sport is the quicker it will be killed off, from which no one gets fame, glory, or money.

What do you see as the way forward?