Doping in XC skiing

[ToreBear]

Re: Re:

once again, genius, armstrong had not been caught with his steroid profile, nor his blood profile...

only a malicious and a pernicious fan boy like torebear will continue to ignore the simple fact...

her doping procedure is unknown, unless one blindly accepts the official version, her doping doses are unknown, her testing frequency is known low.

all the reasons, as pointed above, to ignore the adn fluff.

See above, just edited it.

once again, you intentionally ignore some well known facts.

1st off, the steroid profile monitoring dates back, including by the fis, at least a decade back. the longitudinal t/e (testosterone-to epitestosterone) ratio, which is a CLASSIC form of steroid profiling dates even further back. the date you quote may be related to a particular profiling variables settled on that year. the modules have been and still are continually updated.

2nd, the point made was that ANY profiling model, blood or steroid, can be made useless by the sophisticated doping. as i said numerous times - the armstrong case could not be a better example.

Yes ADN adopted steroid profiling in 2007 I believe.

If you are thinking about some overarching Norwegian conspiracy to dope athletes, then good luck. Perhaps you think all the money spent on AD in Norway is actually a ruse.

Since the obvious thing if you have a doping conspiracy is to make sure the AD agency is part of the conspiracy. Keeping it in house makes more sense. As in the sport controls it(ADN is an independent foundation). And you only implement new technologies when you have to.(ADN usually among the first).

If you are looking for a situation that makes such a conspiracy easier to conceal, you might want to check out a country east of Norway and west of Finland. They have apparently been testing their athletes so much lately since they don't have enough bloodpass Data. They only adopted the blodpass in 2014. :lol:

X has an independent ADN foundation.
Y doesn't have one. The sports confederation takes care of it.

X started blood profiling in 2004.
Y started blood profiling in 2014.

Is it more likely that there is a conspiracy in X or in Y?

If you still believe it is X, then I cant help you.

BTW. I don't believe in new magic potions. Retroactive testing tends to discover any magic before a decade has passed.

 

[ToreBear]

Re:

From the hearing:

Leder ved Norges laboratorium for dopinganalyse, Yvette Dehnes, var neste taler. Johaug fulgte meget nøye med. Dehnes sa følgende om konsentrasjonen av clostebol, som var på 13 nanogram per milliliter i Johaugs positive prøve:
- Denne verdien er forenlig med bruk av kremen Trofodermin, men vi kan ikke utelukke annen bruk. Det kan være en liten mengde tatt for kort tid siden, eller det kan være en større mengde for lenger tid siden, sier Dehnes.

The Norwegian laboratory did only analyze how much clostebol it was in the urine and if the concentration did cohere with Johaugs claims of Trofodermin use. "We cant exclude other use. It could have been a small intake a short time ago or a large amount longer ago". The circle reasoning in the verdict is a smoke screen.

Also mentioned in the hearing was the part about not finding any change in the steroid module.

 

[python]

i was very specific on the johaug case, on how an alternative version may need to be explored given the various acknowledged facts about the blood and steroid profiling.

in return, i heard a saliva rich babble about some comparative geographic conspiracies somewhere west or east of norway... :surprised:

torebear, you are a malicious, stubborn fanboy. pretty much everyone judging by their responses to you knows this much. i was reluctant to comment on the discgear description of the intellectual depth of those like you.

will only say this: wont waste a second on you anymore. your clinical fanboyism is beyond care

 

[Aragon]

Re: Re:

Tomorrow is the publication date of Erkki Vettenniemi's new book "Suomalainen hiihtodoping - Punssia, pillereitä ja punasoluja" (Dopin in Finnish Xc skiing - Punch, pills and red blood cells)....
One implication of this is, of course, that epo was well in the scene in the late 80s.

Thanks for the link. It was hard to understand.

Here is Norwegian article on the book and on the alleged rEPO-use by the Finnish XC team.

http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/slipper-epo-bombe-rett-for-lahti-vm/67011711

It is very readable for English speakers through Google-translate.

Despite the existence of the Olympic Committee document and 28-year old recollections of two participants about the control group, I wouldn't take it for granted that there actually was the rEPO-control group for the following reasons:

- The 1988 Olympic Committee document quoted about the future rEPO-project appears more as fragmentary outlines of a preliminary plan than what necessarily materialised.

- There were three simultaneous projects on the detection of blood doping (homologous, autologous, rEPO) and there were several hundred blood samples (some sources say over 700) analysed, so there must've been some other control groups to confuse the recollections of the people involved particularly when the memories could've been "refreshed" with the Olympic Committee document with reference to the planned rEPO control group.

- Tapio Videman who supervised the blood doping detection project makes no reference to the control group in any of his handful of references to the project and actually points out that the rEPO-test (that never materialised) was based on measuring natural fluctuations of erythropoietin levels. Some rEPO-detection research took place as the largest Finnish daily Helsingin Sanomat(2/16/1989) informs us that "according to Frej Fyhrqvist from University of Helsinki, there is already a good detection method that can reveal both autologous blood transfusions and banned erythropoietin".

- Finns were not totally alone in the project and there were some foreigners involved with the detection project (Inggard Lereim, Jim Stray-Gundersen), who haven't made no references to the administration of rEPO to any athletes nor participants. These same people supervised the blood doping testing in the 1989 FIS Nordic World Ski Championships, which showed no signs of abnormally high hemoglobin levels (mean/max, men 14.8/16.5, women 13.4/14.8 g/dl).

- If Vettenniemi is right that Finnish sportspeople could just easily get hold of the rEPO supplies of the erythropoietin researchers of the University of Helsinki, why to mention the control group at all in the official documents and leave traces for later researchers to find.

That having been written, the book appears to be a nice piece of original research. I'll give some further details on the book as soon as I get a hold of a copy of it.

 

[BullsFan22]

If you had to pick a biathlete and call him a doper, which one would it be? Bjoerndalen or Fourcade?

 

[kingjr]

Cornel Puchianu

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Cornel Puchianu

Way to deflect. Nice sarcasm though.

Anyway, to the point, I just don't see how for one, Fourcade is able to dominate this field for the past 5 or 6 years without doping. Bjoerndalen's obviously done it for longer, but he is 14-15 years older. He's beaten and actually dominated the sport at the height of the EPO/blood doping era. Not only that, but he had good success when competing against xc skiers. This is as suspicious (if not more so) than Serena Williams winning majors at 36 or Federer at 35. These people should be YEARS past their primes, yet not only are they relevant, they are winning GS tournaments against opponents that are 10, 15 years younger and should be more fresh with more power, speed and even endurance.

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

Cornel Puchianu

Way to deflect. Nice sarcasm though.

I do think he's a bit dodgy, same as Kaukenas, I've been thinking that for 3 years now. Just a gut feeling. I thought Schempp was suspicious, the way he performed so badly a couple of years back due to illness and then became one of the top skiers not long after. I've had doubts about the Bulgarians for about 5, 6 years now, too.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Cornel Puchianu

Way to deflect. Nice sarcasm though.

I do think he's a bit dodgy, same as Kaukenas, I've been thinking that for 3 years now. Just a gut feeling. I thought Schempp was suspicious, the way he performed so badly a couple of years back due to illness and then became one of the top skiers not long after. I've had doubts about the Bulgarians for about 5, 6 years now, too.

To be honest, I don't know as much about the Romanians as I do the Bulgarians. And yes, I agree with you on the Bulgarians. Their women 15-20 years ago were DODGY as heck. A former Soviet satellite state and one that has had problems with doping. This goes back a while, but Ivan Lebanov, 3rd place at the 1980 30km at the Lake Placid Olympics.

 

[John de Savage]

More claims of early EPO implementation.

Meanwhile, the Danish doctor Søren Kragbak has been accused of having tried to introduce EPO into Danish cycling in 1991, something that he denies. According to the newspaper Ekstra Bladet, Kragbak's friend, Danish national track coach Kim Refshammer, was offered to try EPO on the Danish track team.

"Søren Kragbak offered us erythro-something. I then didn't understand what it was but I am happy now that I turned the offer down," said Refshammer, who is still coaching the track team. Kim Refshammer got Kragbak involved in Danish cycling and he gained a position as medical consultant for the Danish Cycling Union, also involving the road team. He was also hired by the first Danish pro team, Home Jack&Jones in 1998 as team doctor but sacked for some reason after a month.

Kragbak denies and doubts that Refshammer really has said that he offered EPO to the track riders in 1991. According to him, the Danish Cycling Union was offered EPO from a Swedish medical company in 1989. They wanted to test the product on the riders but the Danish Sports federation turned the offer down, since EPO was considered to be too dangerous.

"My theory then was that it would raise the performance level of the athletes. But it was actually a medicine for kidney patients in dialysis. That is what I have said to Kim Refshammer, but we never used the stuff. That is what I know about EPO. I have never seen an ampoule or had one in my hand," he said.

According to him EPO was under development in 1989 and the medical industry wanted to test it scientifically on known athletes. After the turn down from the Danish Cycling Union the company, according to Kragbak, started testing in co operation with the Swedish national cross country ski team, the best in the world at that time.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/mar00/mar24news.shtml

In danish:

Læge Søren Kragbak fortæller videre, at han i 1989 - via en rapport fra Danmarks Cykle Union - blev kontaktet af et svensk medicinalfirma, der havde udviklet EPO. Henvendelsen gik ud på, at firmaet ønskede at afprøve stoffet på de danske cykelryttere. Sagen blev behandlet i Dansk Idræts-Forbund, og man blev enige om ikke at bruge stoffet, fordi man vurderede, at det var for farligt.

"Min teori var, at det ville forbedre idrætsfolks præstationer. Men der var tale om en medicin til nyrepatienter i dialyse, så vi afviste. Det forløb har jeg omtalt for Kim Refshammer, men vi brugte ikke stoffet. Det er mit kendskab til EPO. Jeg har aldrig set en ampul eller haft en i hånden," siger Søren Kragbak.

Han oplyser, at EPO i 1989 stadig var under udvikling, og at det var attraktivt for medicinalvirksomheden at få lavet en videnskabelig afprøvning på kendte sportsfolk.

Efter afslaget fra de danske cykelryttere fik firmaet lavet en afprøvning i samarbejdet med det svenske langrendsforbund.

http://www.b.dk/sport/laege-afviser-anklager-om-doping

The source is a bit shady though. An alleged doping doctor who asserts his own innocence.

 

[Aragon]

Re:

In this light is interesting that Pekka Vähäsöyrinki, who was the head coach of Finnish cross country team, told in 1993 about Swedish recombinant erythropoietin research projects he was aware of:

The Swedes have conducted studies with the rEPO and there are several in the medical journals. In Sweden, the athletes loaded with rEPO bettered their performances by 3.7 percent. [Finnish XC-skier] Harri Kirvesniemi lost in Falun [1993] gold at the difference of only two percent. The research was published some two years ago.

http://www.mtv.fi/sport/hiihtolajit/maastohiihto/artikkeli/suomalaisilla-epo-tutkimustietoa-jo-ennen-albertvillen-olympialaisia/3623210

The information provided by Vähäsöyrinki is interesting if accurate, because the figure of 3.7 % doesn't come from the well known and the first rEPO-study involving athletes with 15 participants conducted by researchers Björn Ekblom and Bo Berglund in 1989 and published (as two separate papers) in 1991, even when there was a calculation based most likely on the time to exhaustion tests that an athlete could cut his/her 20-minute time by 30 seconds with the substance.

 

[python]

If you had to pick a biathlete and call him a doper, which one would it be? Bjoerndalen or Fourcade?

the way i look at the suspicious athletes - and i must stress only in the sports i follow closely which biathlon is not - it's similar to the way the anti doping authorities TARGET for sudden out of competition tests.

the dope catchers at the fis or uci or ibu dont make a secret of how they chose the suspects:

1. significant fluctuation of blood passport
2. significant fluctuation of steroid passport
3. tip-offs
4. whereabouts irregularities (missed tests, failure to file, affinity for remote places...)
5. substantial performance ups vs downs

while the top 4 are confidential and we the public become aware only when leaked, the last one (5) is available to ANYONE.

how one decides what is a substantial performance change ? clearly, it is subjective. but when someone in the world elite starts to separate by 3-5% and consistently, it is time to raise eyebrows.

'consistent' is an important attribute b/c it tends to cancel out other +/- factors like ski prep, good/bad day, preferences etc...

that's why lil therese is squarely on my list. i don't know the stats if fourcade fits the 3-5% threshold, but he sure is way too consistently superior for way too long...mind you, over the excellent skiers from scandinavia and germany and often doped russians.

oeb is a more difficult case even given his high performance for so long. but iirc, he did have at least one missed test ?

 

[Cloxxki]

High cadence uphill (out of saddle) pedaling - jump skating all the way around a lap
Bashing caught dopers - Bashing former dopers
A whole era of being ontouchable in chosen races - whole era of WC and Worlds domination
Innovative tactics - innovative tactics
Cleaner than clean nation, but training abroad - cleaner than clean nation but training in other "clean" nation
popular with the ladies - polular with the ladies
Lance - Martin

A more apt question would be: which would you rate the most likely clean biathletes, male and female? I think you can't realistically seek those with 4% of best ski times. How was it in cycling?
Imagine Fourcade with his obvious Usain Bolt level telent is actually a Lance level doper. Where to seek the first clean athlete? There may not be a single one in the mass start...

 

[python]

some doping news... very briefly.

johaug was dumped by fischer earlier today.

the 'asthma panel' is set to release their report later this week. i haven't found any preliminary details

the fis council is to meet on Wed to discuss if they will appeal the johaug case. does not mean we will learn their decision right away.

the cas is expected to rule on legkov and belov before the lahti starts, but nothing is confirmed, except if they are acquitted they will definitely race in lahti

 

[poupou]

From http://www.realbiathlon.com/2016/03/201516-top-skiers-men.html
2015–16 season 2014–15 season
Name Nat Races Ski Rank Median% Top10 % km/h Median % Diff.
1 FOURCADE Martin FRA 24 3.4 -3.99 -0.80 27.10 -2.9 -1.1
2 EBERHARD Julian AUT 23 8.3 -3.27 0.06 26.97 -2.6 -0.7
3 BOE Johannes T. NOR 22 6.8 -3.04 0.15 26.89 -3.0 0.0
4 BOE Tarjei NOR 23 7.6 -2.98 0.18 26.90 -1.5 -1.5
5 DOLL Benedikt GER 24 7.3 -2.97 0.21 26.84 -2.2 -0.7
6 SCHEMPP Simon GER 18 8.8 -2.80 0.30 26.53 -3.0 +0.2
7 SHIPULIN Anton RUS 25 12.8 -2.22 0.97 26.59 -2.9 +0.7
8 LANDERTINGER Dominik AUT 21 12.7 -2.22 0.91 26.51 -1.9 -0.3
9 GARANICHEV Evgeniy RUS 23 11.6 -2.19 0.95 26.58 -2.1 -0.1
10 RASTORGUJEVS Andrejs LAT 22 13.0 -2.18 1.09 26.68 -2.6 +0.4
11 SVENDSEN Emil Hegle NOR 19 12.6 -2.05 1.10 26.74 -2.1 +0.1

But ski time goes down for a poor shooter who has sometimes more distance to run, loop times are not counted in ski time!
http://www.realbiathlon.com/2016/03/201516-top-shooters-men.html
Most Accurate Shooters (ranked by overall shooting percent) 2015–16 season | Men
Overall Non-Team Relay
Name Nat Races Hits/Shots T % P % S % T % P % S % T %
1 BABIKOV Anton RUS 6 101/112 90.18 89.5 90.9 91.0 92.0 90.0 83.3
2 VOLKOV Alexey RUS 11 202/225 89.78 92.7 87.0 89.4 90.6 88.2 90.9
3 PEIFFER Arnd GER 21 353/396 89.14 90.9 87.4 89.1 91.2 87.1 89.3
4 FOURCADE Martin FRA 24 404/455 88.79 89.9 87.7 88.2 89.2 87.2 92.3
5 GOW Christian CAN 11 181/204 88.73 89.1 88.3 88.1 87.5 88.8 90.9
6 EDER Simon AUT 22 399/451 88.47 88.2 88.8 88.6 89.4 87.8 87.9
7 TSVETKOV Maxim RUS 22 362/410 88.29 86.4 90.2 89.1 87.4 90.9 83.3
8 SVENDSEN Emil Hegle NOR 19 314/357 87.96 93.2 82.9 88.8 93.1 84.4 81.1
9 LINDSTRÖM Fredrik SWE 19 323/368 87.77 94.5 81.2 88.1 94.8 81.3 86.2
10 BIRNBACHER Andreas GER 18 290/331 87.61 86.1 89.1 90.0 88.7 91.3 64.5

 

[ToreBear]

Re: Re:

Tomorrow is the publication date of Erkki Vettenniemi's new book "Suomalainen hiihtodoping - Punssia, pillereitä ja punasoluja" (Dopin in Finnish Xc skiing - Punch, pills and red blood cells)....
One implication of this is, of course, that epo was well in the scene in the late 80s.

Thanks for the link. It was hard to understand.

Here is Norwegian article on the book and on the alleged rEPO-use by the Finnish XC team.

http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/slipper-epo-bombe-rett-for-lahti-vm/67011711

It is very readable for English speakers through Google-translate.

Despite the existence of the Olympic Committee document and 28-year old recollections of two participants about the control group, I wouldn't take it for granted that there actually was the rEPO-control group for the following reasons:

- The 1988 Olympic Committee document quoted about the future rEPO-project appears more as fragmentary outlines of a preliminary plan than what necessarily materialised.

- There were three simultaneous projects on the detection of blood doping (homologous, autologous, rEPO) and there were several hundred blood samples (some sources say over 700) analysed, so there must've been some other control groups to confuse the recollections of the people involved particularly when the memories could've been "refreshed" with the Olympic Committee document with reference to the planned rEPO control group.

- Tapio Videman who supervised the blood doping detection project makes no reference to the control group in any of his handful of references to the project and actually points out that the rEPO-test (that never materialised) was based on measuring natural fluctuations of erythropoietin levels. Some rEPO-detection research took place as the largest Finnish daily Helsingin Sanomat(2/16/1989) informs us that "according to Frej Fyhrqvist from University of Helsinki, there is already a good detection method that can reveal both autologous blood transfusions and banned erythropoietin".

- Finns were not totally alone in the project and there were some foreigners involved with the detection project (Inggard Lereim, Jim Stray-Gundersen), who haven't made no references to the administration of rEPO to any athletes nor participants. These same people supervised the blood doping testing in the 1989 FIS Nordic World Ski Championships, which showed no signs of abnormally high hemoglobin levels (mean/max, men 14.8/16.5, women 13.4/14.8 g/dl).

- If Vettenniemi is right that Finnish sportspeople could just easily get hold of the rEPO supplies of the erythropoietin researchers of the University of Helsinki, why to mention the control group at all in the official documents and leave traces for later researchers to find.

That having been written, the book appears to be a nice piece of original research. I'll give some further details on the book as soon as I get a hold of a copy of it.

Thanks for the link. Yes the potential for misunderstanding is pretty big in this case. As for the 1989 project. I think it was a FIS project(perhaps co-funded by others), carried out by who I think were in the FIS medical committee at that time.

Videman, T.; Sistonen, P.; Stray-Gundersen, J.; Lereim, I. (BISp 990337763)
Experiences in blood doping testing at the 1989 World Cross-Country Ski Championships in Lahti, Finland

It always annoys me with these doping books, TV programs or what ever come just before a big tournament. I'm busy with watching the sport and don't have time to check them out.

I guess we will see if there is anything new in this book. Interestingly IIRC Conconi began to experiment with EPO at this time. Perhaps he got supplies through some Finnish contact with AMGEN or something? I also think there was some cross contact between Conconi and some Finns due to the Italians having had several XC national coaches.

 

[Cloxxki]

Fischer checking out is going to cost her some real income. And unless Madshus jumps in quickly, getting fast skis dor such a lightweight skier might prove a challenge.
Does anyone know of skiers back from a ban to which extent they gottheir hands on quick skis? Or do Loginov etc just use their old sponsored skis? He and Starykh are making a bit of a mockery of it BTW, skiing so well after their bans. As if going without EPO doesn't affect your speed. It has to be a lot. Especially since fatique affects balance which is vital for speed and endurance.

 

[Discgear]

If you had to pick a biathlete and call him a doper, which one would it be? Bjoerndalen or Fourcade?

the way i look at the suspicious athletes - and i must stress only in the sports i follow closely which biathlon is not - it's similar to the way the anti doping authorities TARGET for sudden out of competition tests.

the dope catchers at the fis or uci or ibu dont make a secret of how they chose the suspects:

1. significant fluctuation of blood passport
2. significant fluctuation of steroid passport
3. tip-offs
4. whereabouts irregularities (missed tests, failure to file, affinity for remote places...)
5. substantial performance ups vs downs

while the top 4 are confidential and we the public become aware only when leaked, the last one (5) is available to ANYONE.

how one decides what is a substantial performance change ? clearly, it is subjective. but when someone in the world elite starts to separate by 3-5% and consistently, it is time to raise eyebrows.

'consistent' is an important attribute b/c it tends to cancel out other +/- factors like ski prep, good/bad day, preferences etc...

that's why lil therese is squarely on my list. i don't know the stats if fourcade fits the 3-5% threshold, but he sure is way too consistently superior for way too long...mind you, over the excellent skiers from scandinavia and germany and often doped russians.

oeb is a more difficult case even given his high performance for so long. but iirc, he did have at least one missed test ?

Thank's, a good read. Number (5) is disturbing. It certainly was something that triggered warnings when traditional blood-doping was widespread. Many still talks about this as obscure, and even the dope catchers at FIS and IBU, according to you. Hence, Olsson suspect - Forcaud ok. But is this argument valid today or even after EPO? In the 90s you could compete in every race high on EPO without suspicion. The last years it's been possible to rely on micro-dosing and perform steadily on top. Maybe the only time you should be more careful is in the Olympics when the doping hunters are not run by FIS and IBU? Hence, maybe more suspicous to under perform in the Olympics compared to rest of the competetions? I don't know. In any case number (5) boggles me.

 

[BullsFan22]

If you had to pick a biathlete and call him a doper, which one would it be? Bjoerndalen or Fourcade?

the way i look at the suspicious athletes - and i must stress only in the sports i follow closely which biathlon is not - it's similar to the way the anti doping authorities TARGET for sudden out of competition tests.

the dope catchers at the fis or uci or ibu dont make a secret of how they chose the suspects:

1. significant fluctuation of blood passport
2. significant fluctuation of steroid passport
3. tip-offs
4. whereabouts irregularities (missed tests, failure to file, affinity for remote places...)
5. substantial performance ups vs downs

while the top 4 are confidential and we the public become aware only when leaked, the last one (5) is available to ANYONE.

how one decides what is a substantial performance change ? clearly, it is subjective. but when someone in the world elite starts to separate by 3-5% and consistently, it is time to raise eyebrows.

'consistent' is an important attribute b/c it tends to cancel out other +/- factors like ski prep, good/bad day, preferences etc...

that's why lil therese is squarely on my list. i don't know the stats if fourcade fits the 3-5% threshold, but he sure is way too consistently superior for way too long...mind you, over the excellent skiers from scandinavia and germany and often doped russians.

oeb is a more difficult case even given his high performance for so long. but iirc, he did have at least one missed test ?

Bjoernadalen missed a test just before the 2013/2014 season:

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/wintersport/weltklasse-biathlet-ole-einar-bjoerndalen-verpasst-doping-test-a-928474.html

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11141961

Article in the NYT with Jacques Rogge, former IOC head, just before Sochi.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/07/sports/olympics/athletes-change-but-stain-of-doping-lingers.html?_r=0

"Catlin last week admitted publicly — for the first time — that those three positive tests at the Salt Lake Games were only “the tip of the iceberg” of the positive tests for darbepoetin in Salt Lake City. He told me that two biathletes from those Games had also tested positive for the drug on the final day, but that he and the International Olympic Committee president at the time, Jacques Rogge, had decided against pursuing their cases because “it would raise a huge stink around the world.”

How nobody pursued this, even when it came out public for the first time three years ago is beyond me. Who are these big names that would merit a 'hush hush' by the IOC and the IBU as to 'not raise a huge stink around the world???'

 

[Aragon]

Re: Re:

Thanks for the link. Yes the potential for misunderstanding is pretty big in this case. As for the 1989 project. I think it was a FIS project(perhaps co-funded by others), carried out by who I think were in the FIS medical committee at that time.

Videman, T.; Sistonen, P.; Stray-Gundersen, J.; Lereim, I. (BISp 990337763)
Experiences in blood doping testing at the 1989 World Cross-Country Ski Championships in Lahti, Finland

It always annoys me with these doping books, TV programs or what ever come just before a big tournament. I'm busy with watching the sport and don't have time to check them out.

I guess we will see if there is anything new in this book. Interestingly IIRC Conconi began to experiment with EPO at this time. Perhaps he got supplies through some Finnish contact with AMGEN or something? I also think there was some cross contact between Conconi and some Finns due to the Italians having had several XC national coaches.

I recall seeing some references about Conconi being involved with rEPO tests as early as 1980s, but it is my impression that the claim is far from proven. The smoking gun that people usually refer is the research paper published in 1988, but the paper actually wasn't about rEPO at all but only about the natural erythropoietin levels of the subjects.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3384528

Even when Erkki Vettenniemi hints that erythropoietin researcher Frej Fyhrquist supplied Finnish cross country skiers with rEPO from the supplies he used in his research, I am not convinced about this allegation.

Had Fyhrquist been published papers in the field of sports medicine or been closely affiliated with the sports community, there might be something into the claim, but having gone through a decent amount of material about Finnish sports medicine and sports life in general, I recall seeing name Frej Fyhrquist mentioned only twice:

1) In relation to the blood doping detection project in 1988-1989 as a specialist of erythropoietin (surprise, surprise)
2) In relation to Eero Mäntyranta, whose "high hematocrit mystery" was solved in two research papers in early 1990s.

Apparently Mr. Vettenniemi disagrees with me, but I find it unlikely that one of the world's foremost erythropoietin specialists would've risked his lifework and possibly have his medical license revoked, particularly when in 1988-1989 there had been zero studies about how athletes' bodies even reacted to the substance. One could speculate that he thought that he provided it to the non-existent control group thinking that he helped the rEPO detection, but I find it almost equally unlikely that he would've taken risk by providing rEPO for uses not specifically approved by AMGEN or by the Finnish medical authorities.

Even when I am not fully convinced about the allegations by Vettenniemi, I find this very interesting. If I am lucky, it is possible that some of the the data is actually public and it would be interesting to know whether Videman and his colleagues applied a permission from medical authorities to use rEPO for the test.

That is something I am really tempted to find out.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Thanks for the link. Yes the potential for misunderstanding is pretty big in this case. As for the 1989 project. I think it was a FIS project(perhaps co-funded by others), carried out by who I think were in the FIS medical committee at that time.

Videman, T.; Sistonen, P.; Stray-Gundersen, J.; Lereim, I. (BISp 990337763)
Experiences in blood doping testing at the 1989 World Cross-Country Ski Championships in Lahti, Finland

It always annoys me with these doping books, TV programs or what ever come just before a big tournament. I'm busy with watching the sport and don't have time to check them out.

I guess we will see if there is anything new in this book. Interestingly IIRC Conconi began to experiment with EPO at this time. Perhaps he got supplies through some Finnish contact with AMGEN or something? I also think there was some cross contact between Conconi and some Finns due to the Italians having had several XC national coaches.

I recall seeing some references about Conconi being involved with rEPO tests as early as 1980s, but it is my impression that the claim is far from proven. The smoking gun that people usually refer is the research paper published in 1988, but the paper actually wasn't about rEPO at all but only about the natural erythropoietin levels of the subjects.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3384528

Even when Erkki Vettenniemi hints that erythropoietin researcher Frej Fyhrquist supplied Finnish cross country skiers with rEPO from the supplies he used in his research, I am not convinced about this allegation.

Had Fyhrquist been published papers in the field of sports medicine or been closely affiliated with the sports community, there might be something into the claim, but having gone through a decent amount of material about Finnish sports medicine and sports life in general, I recall seeing name Frej Fyhrquist mentioned only twice:

1) In relation to the blood doping detection project in 1988-1989 as a specialist of erythropoietin (surprise, surprise)
2) In relation to Eero Mäntyranta, whose "high hematocrit mystery" was solved in two research papers in early 1990s.

Apparently Mr. Vettenniemi disagrees with me, but I find it unlikely that one of the world's foremost erythropoietin specialists would've risked his lifework and possibly have his medical license revoked, particularly when in 1988-1989 there had been zero studies about how athletes' bodies even reacted to the substance. One could speculate that he thought that he provided it to the non-existent control group thinking that he helped the rEPO detection, but I find it almost equally unlikely that he would've taken risk by providing rEPO for uses not specifically approved by AMGEN or by the Finnish medical authorities.

Even when I am not fully convinced about the allegations by Vettenniemi, I find this very interesting. If I am lucky, it is possible that some of the the data is actually public and it would be interesting to know whether Videman and his colleagues applied a permission from medical authorities to use rEPO for the test.

That is something I am really tempted to find out.

Didn't Kari Pekka Kyro say something about how it was Ferrari and his associates that brought EPO to the sport of XC? Here is the synopsis on wikipedia (take it with a pinch of salt, since it's wikipedia)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Ferrari

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Conconi

(look at the xc skiers that he worked with, Manuela Di Centa, Silvio Fauner, Maurilio DeZolt and Marco Albarello, the four biggest names in Italian xc history-giants of the sport in the 70's, 80's and 90's)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Cecchini


Sorry, too lazy to search in detail, but wikipedia is a nice starting point.

 

[python]

If you had to pick a biathlete and call him a doper, which one would it be? Bjoerndalen or Fourcade?

the way i look at the suspicious athletes - and i must stress only in the sports i follow closely which biathlon is not - it's similar to the way the anti doping authorities TARGET for sudden out of competition tests.

the dope catchers at the fis or uci or ibu dont make a secret of how they chose the suspects:

1. significant fluctuation of blood passport
2. significant fluctuation of steroid passport
3. tip-offs
4. whereabouts irregularities (missed tests, failure to file, affinity for remote places...)
5. substantial performance ups vs downs

while the top 4 are confidential and we the public become aware only when leaked, the last one (5) is available to ANYONE.

how one decides what is a substantial performance change ? clearly, it is subjective. but when someone in the world elite starts to separate by 3-5% and consistently, it is time to raise eyebrows.

'consistent' is an important attribute b/c it tends to cancel out other +/- factors like ski prep, good/bad day, preferences etc...

that's why lil therese is squarely on my list. i don't know the stats if fourcade fits the 3-5% threshold, but he sure is way too consistently superior for way too long...mind you, over the excellent skiers from scandinavia and germany and often doped russians.

oeb is a more difficult case even given his high performance for so long. but iirc, he did have at least one missed test ?

Bjoernadalen missed a test just before the 2013/2014 season:

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/wintersport/weltklasse-biathlet-ole-einar-bjoerndalen-verpasst-doping-test-a-928474.html

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11141961

Article in the NYT with Jacques Rogge, former IOC head, just before Sochi.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/07/sports/olympics/athletes-change-but-stain-of-doping-lingers.html?_r=0

"Catlin last week admitted publicly — for the first time — that those three positive tests at the Salt Lake Games were only “the tip of the iceberg” of the positive tests for darbepoetin in Salt Lake City. He told me that two biathletes from those Games had also tested positive for the drug on the final day, but that he and the International Olympic Committee president at the time, Jacques Rogge, had decided against pursuing their cases because “it would raise a huge stink around the world.”

How nobody pursued this, even when it came out public for the first time three years ago is beyond me. Who are these big names that would merit a 'hush hush' by the IOC and the IBU as to 'not raise a huge stink around the world???'

to the bolded about catlin...

i met him in person. can't claim to know him well but i always felt a special respect for the old man.

catlin was/still is a unique class act. that is, he he could stand his ground yet not getting involved in the easy, nowadays habitual self promotion at the expense of those superiors he disagreed with... he always spoke his mind, he sometimes put his lab's scientific criteria ahead of a governing body's guidance. it was the ioc then, later wada. still, he felt justified to report some failed tests differently than he was prescribed...always got away with it, b/c of his reputation.

in his capacity as a doping expert before the various panels, he frequently took a position of an athlete. i suspect, but dont really know, it was not b/c he believed an athletes was 100% innocent, but b/c he felt for the athletes rights in the face of the strict liability principle. in one word, a true great scientist, an anti-doping zealot, yet with the human heart.

when he was outspoken, like above, it was never a political act. a true american idealist unlike the todays bunch
headed by tyger.

 

[BullsFan22]

If you had to pick a biathlete and call him a doper, which one would it be? Bjoerndalen or Fourcade?

the way i look at the suspicious athletes - and i must stress only in the sports i follow closely which biathlon is not - it's similar to the way the anti doping authorities TARGET for sudden out of competition tests.

the dope catchers at the fis or uci or ibu dont make a secret of how they chose the suspects:

1. significant fluctuation of blood passport
2. significant fluctuation of steroid passport
3. tip-offs
4. whereabouts irregularities (missed tests, failure to file, affinity for remote places...)
5. substantial performance ups vs downs

while the top 4 are confidential and we the public become aware only when leaked, the last one (5) is available to ANYONE.

how one decides what is a substantial performance change ? clearly, it is subjective. but when someone in the world elite starts to separate by 3-5% and consistently, it is time to raise eyebrows.

'consistent' is an important attribute b/c it tends to cancel out other +/- factors like ski prep, good/bad day, preferences etc...

that's why lil therese is squarely on my list. i don't know the stats if fourcade fits the 3-5% threshold, but he sure is way too consistently superior for way too long...mind you, over the excellent skiers from scandinavia and germany and often doped russians.

oeb is a more difficult case even given his high performance for so long. but iirc, he did have at least one missed test ?

Bjoernadalen missed a test just before the 2013/2014 season:

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/wintersport/weltklasse-biathlet-ole-einar-bjoerndalen-verpasst-doping-test-a-928474.html

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11141961

Article in the NYT with Jacques Rogge, former IOC head, just before Sochi.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/07/sports/olympics/athletes-change-but-stain-of-doping-lingers.html?_r=0

"Catlin last week admitted publicly — for the first time — that those three positive tests at the Salt Lake Games were only “the tip of the iceberg” of the positive tests for darbepoetin in Salt Lake City. He told me that two biathletes from those Games had also tested positive for the drug on the final day, but that he and the International Olympic Committee president at the time, Jacques Rogge, had decided against pursuing their cases because “it would raise a huge stink around the world.”

How nobody pursued this, even when it came out public for the first time three years ago is beyond me. Who are these big names that would merit a 'hush hush' by the IOC and the IBU as to 'not raise a huge stink around the world???'

to the bolded about catlin...

i met him in person. can't claim to know him well but i always felt a special respect for the old man.

catlin was/still is a unique class act. that is, he he could stand his ground yet not getting involved in the easy, nowadays habitual self promotion at the expense of those superiors he disagreed with... he always spoke his mind, he sometimes put his lab's scientific criteria ahead of a governing body's guidance. it was the ioc then, later wada. still, he felt justified to report some failed tests differently than he was prescribed...always got away with it, b/c of his reputation.

in his capacity as a doping expert before the various panels, he frequently took a position of an athlete. i suspect, but dont really know, it was not b/c he believed an athletes was 100% innocent, but b/c he felt for the athletes rights in the face of the strict liability principle. in one word, a true great scientist, an anti-doping zealot, yet with the human heart.

when he was outspoken, like above, it was never a political act. a true american idealist unlike the todays bunch
headed by tyger.

Just a shame that the names of the athletes that had these positive tests swept under the rug were never made public. I am very interested to find out who they are. I think I can guess who they may be.

 

[Aragon]

Re: Re:

Didn't Kari Pekka Kyro say something about how it was Ferrari and his associates that brought EPO to the sport of XC? Here is the synopsis on wikipedia (take it with a pinch of salt, since it's wikipedia)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Ferrari

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Conconi

(look at the xc skiers that he worked with, Manuela Di Centa, Silvio Fauner, Maurilio DeZolt and Marco Albarello, the four biggest names in Italian xc history-giants of the sport in the 70's, 80's and 90's)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Cecchini

Sorry, too lazy to search in detail, but wikipedia is a nice starting point.

I am not in any way implying that Conconi wasn't doping cross country skiers, only that (as far as I know), there is no evidence that his administering of rEPO to them began already in 1980s. There is the well-known rEPO "detection" project where he administered rEPO to many athletes in early 1990s and he co-operated with the national cross country team in administering transfusions from early 1980s at least until the 1988 Winter Olympics at Calgary.

 

[kosmonaut]

Re:

Fischer checking out is going to cost her some real income. And unless Madshus jumps in quickly, getting fast skis dor such a lightweight skier might prove a challenge.
Does anyone know of skiers back from a ban to which extent they gottheir hands on quick skis? Or do Loginov etc just use their old sponsored skis? He and Starykh are making a bit of a mockery of it BTW, skiing so well after their bans. As if going without EPO doesn't affect your speed. It has to be a lot. Especially since fatique affects balance which is vital for speed and endurance.

She gets to keep her ski park and Fischer are ready to sign her back once her the ban ends. Her contract was expiring anyway, so it will probably just be a small break.

Remember that one of the Fischer's current stars are Christian Hoffmann - now a professional ski mountaneer or whatever. They don't give a *** about clean sport.