Doping in XC skiing

[Kokoso]

Re:

Koukalova story looks very, very questionable. Two excellent seasons in WC (till the last stage in 2016-2017) and suddenly some ... sickness in summer. Extremely questionable.

Pretty clinicesque, too funny :razz: So both of you Cloxxki consider Koukalova very questionable based on...nothing. No single reason stated. You guys are great! :razz:

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

The biggest problem with the Koukalová story is simply that there hasn't been much communication of what exactly the problem is, just that it's to do with her calf. Maybe the Czech press has more information, but to miss a whole season - and an Olympic one no less - is a huge step to take, and it was also announced well in advance, back at the end of October, that she may miss the Olympics.

Quite on the contrary. There were a lot of informations on this topic in Czech press. Unnecesary amount of communication on one single athlete's problem I would say. Reason was stated pretty clearly - she has long time problems with Achilles tendons and other tendons in calf and calf muscles (it's part of one functional complex so that comes as no surprises).
Also IT WAS NOT ANNOUNCED in October she could miss Olympics.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

The Russians looking bad does not make the Norwegians look better.

Nobody says it does. Have you even bother to read and get context? Because your reaction is of the way.

Here's the thing: If you're going to have 'context' then everybody has to have the same allowance for 'context'. Without going through the whole of last season again, you can't make excuses for one country's athletes and not another's.

I was not arguing that Russians make Norwegians look better. I was not doing excuses for one's country athlets and not another. You are of the point. That is why I asked you to get the context, why you clearly had not.

I was arguing that it is not good to make Russians look better than Russians.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

If I remember correctly, Sundy self-diagnosed (and actively broadcasted) his asthma. But, cotnrary to popular Norwegian tradition, actually not a TUE for it. Dosed via state doctor supplied, waxing truck installed vaporizer, roughly (conservatively) 10-20x the typical dosage, daily. And doesn't miss a race over it.
But if you're Russian, you're banned by default. What do you expect, being Russian and all?

Segey Ustyugov (among many others) says hello.

Enough for the nonsense.

P.S. You've missed someting for sure...

The Russians looking bad does not make the Norwegians look better. Nebulizers, asthma medicine, the pointing of fingers at others and then the Johaug and Sunby cases. None of it is good.

Another one who doesn't bother to get the context. Or, more likely, I guess you both do (get the context and know your reaction is outside the point) but chose to pretend not to and rather look stupid. Well, it's your choice

Can you explain?

Yey, I can. I am not making Norwegians look better than Russians. Still Blaaswix and you are acting so and go on naming thing. On the other hand you both OVERLOOK clearly WRONG Cloxxki's statement that Russians are banned by default (we all know it is not true). Hence why are both of you of the point.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

The biggest problem with the Koukalová story is simply that there hasn't been much communication of what exactly the problem is, just that it's to do with her calf. Maybe the Czech press has more information, but to miss a whole season - and an Olympic one no less - is a huge step to take, and it was also announced well in advance, back at the end of October, that she may miss the Olympics.

Quite on the contrary. There were a lot of informations on this topic in Czech press. Unnecesary amount of communication on one single athlete's problem I would say. Reason was stated pretty clearly - she has long time problems with Achilles tendons and other tendons in calf and calf muscles (it's part of one functional complex so that comes as no surprises).
Also IT WAS NOT ANNOUNCED in October she could miss Olympics.

My exact point was that there might be more information in the Czech press, but only very vague information has made it across to other language press. I don't read Czech, hence why I left the caveat that the Czech press might have more detail on it. All of the articles I've seen have been "problems with aching calf muscles" and "problems with the achilles". Never any detail on what those problems actually are, although she made a comment more recently to suggest she's made changes in her skiing technique, though whether that's to accommodate the problems with her calves or whether that's the cause of the problems has again not been something that I've found any clarity on. You probably can fill us in with the details which can hopefully resolve the riddle, same as her 2011-12 bout of mono - which wasn't reported much outside Czechia because at the time she was a relatively peripheral name, explained why she seemed to emerge from out of thin air in 2012-13 and I withdrew the raised eyebrows about that.

On the other point though, afraid you're wrong: it WAS announced in October she could miss the Olympics. See this article from Eurosport, date stamp October 27th:
https://www.eurosport.de/biathlon/biathlon-gabriela-koukalova-verpasst-weltcup-auftakt-olympia-start-gefahrdet_sto6383240/story.shtml

Or this one the same day from ARD's Sportschau:
http://www.sportschau.de/wintersport/biathlon/Biathlon-Gabriela-Koukalova-verpasst-saisonstart-100.html

Is it just the Germans jumping the gun? Probably not, since this Anglophone Czech-based source is more vague than the German articles about the injury and more grave about the impact on the Olympics:
http://www.praguemonitor.com/2017/10/27/calf-injury-may-prevent-biathlete-koukalov%C3%A1-joining-olympics

There are others I could show you, from French, Swedish and Russian sources, all dated from the 27th to the 29th of October last year. So while she didn't announce she would miss the Olympics until recently, the fact the Olympics were in jeopardy due to the injury was known about exactly when I said it was: at the end of October.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

The biggest problem with the Koukalová story is simply that there hasn't been much communication of what exactly the problem is, just that it's to do with her calf. Maybe the Czech press has more information, but to miss a whole season - and an Olympic one no less - is a huge step to take, and it was also announced well in advance, back at the end of October, that she may miss the Olympics.

Quite on the contrary. There were a lot of informations on this topic in Czech press. Unnecesary amount of communication on one single athlete's problem I would say. Reason was stated pretty clearly - she has long time problems with Achilles tendons and other tendons in calf and calf muscles (it's part of one functional complex so that comes as no surprises).
Also IT WAS NOT ANNOUNCED in October she could miss Olympics.

My exact point was that there might be more information in the Czech press, but only very vague information has made it across to other language press. I don't read Czech, hence why I left the caveat that the Czech press might have more detail on it. All of the articles I've seen have been "problems with aching calf muscles" and "problems with the achilles". Never any detail on what those problems actually are, although she made a comment more recently to suggest she's made changes in her skiing technique, though whether that's to accommodate the problems with her calves or whether that's the cause of the problems has again not been something that I've found any clarity on. You probably can fill us in with the details which can hopefully resolve the riddle, same as her 2011-12 bout of mono - which wasn't reported much outside Czechia because at the time she was a relatively peripheral name, explained why she seemed to emerge from out of thin air in 2012-13 and I withdrew the raised eyebrows about that.

On the other point though, afraid you're wrong: it WAS announced in October she could miss the Olympics. See this article from Eurosport, date stamp October 27th:
https://www.eurosport.de/biathlon/biathlon-gabriela-koukalova-verpasst-weltcup-auftakt-olympia-start-gefahrdet_sto6383240/story.shtml

Or this one the same day from ARD's Sportschau:
http://www.sportschau.de/wintersport/biathlon/Biathlon-Gabriela-Koukalova-verpasst-saisonstart-100.html

Is it just the Germans jumping the gun? Probably not, since this Anglophone Czech-based source is more vague than the German articles about the injury and more grave about the impact on the Olympics:
http://www.praguemonitor.com/2017/10/27/calf-injury-may-prevent-biathlete-koukalov%C3%A1-joining-olympics

There are others I could show you, from French, Swedish and Russian sources, all dated from the 27th to the 29th of October last year. So while she didn't announce she would miss the Olympics until recently, the fact the Olympics were in jeopardy due to the injury was known about exactly when I said it was: at the end of October.

Well, know you know they were pretty specific what the problem is.

"Never any detail on what those problems actually are, although she made a comment more recently to suggest she's made changes in her skiing technique" - That she has made changes in her skiing technique would be no detail on what those problems actually are, would it?
Anyway it has been said by Soukalova that's the cause of her problems.

You are right on the other topic, I am sorry. I thought it was just bulvar thing. Anyway I see nothing strange about that.

You've had raised eybrows back then but I never got why. At 23 years of age she could hardly not be peripheral name and those who followed knew she had pretty decent results, and she even wasn't that peripheral name actually, 2nd place from ECH or two wins in IBU cup in seasons before seem pretty decent results.


She might or might not be doping, one never know, but I think you'd agree Cloxxki's and Rider's reactions were not very lucky ones.

Anyway I wonder why are you discussing this in clinic section and not Nordic skiing/biathlin thread?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't think "aches in the muscles" is particularly clear when it comes to explaining why somebody would miss an entire season, especially an Olympic season, to be totally honest. If they'd said she'd ruptured or torn something, that gives a clear indication and probably wouldn't draw the same reaction. Like the cases I mentioned, it's easy to explain: "she's just had knee surgery" or "she's broken her spine" immediately point to a long-term injury. At the same time, if they couldn't quite figure out what the exact issue was, then that could have been communicated; "she has these pains and aches that are preventing her training properly, we are running tests but struggling to pinpoint what the issue is, so it's a race against time to find out so we can help her get back into competitive shape for the Olympics" would make a lot of sense too. As I say, it could well be a moot point if the detail is there in the Czech press, just not communicated in the same detail to those of us reliant on press in other languages.

And as for being peripheral at 23, it really depends on the person, we've discussed her emergence after the junior years at length - the thing was, even in the strong performances you'd pointed out at the end of 2010-11, she was outshone by Wierer who had dominated that year's Junior Worlds and went well in Khanty too. Obviously some people don't get good until fairly late, others are stars from the word go, but the fact that Soukalová had missed much of 2011-12 and I hadn't really picked up, or had reason to remember, her decent showings from 2010-11, meant I just saw somebody who went from 93rd to 6th in the World Cup and winning every race at a single weekend. Anyway, we've unpicked those preconceptions about her early career plenty before, so no need to go into it all again.

Anyway, I'm discussing this here because this was where it was raised. I didn't raise the subject.

 

[portugal11]

JTB is doped. sorry but no one can gain 40 seconds in 10 km to everyone

 

[Random Direction]

Besides, everyone makes minor changes in technique, and some with horrible technique get to world level. I had very good classic technique, but not nearly the motor. Give me a fast or highly technical course and I'd be close, a power course, forget it. It I added some extra fuel by doping, national level would have been plausible. Now I'm just old and slow.

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

I don't think "aches in the muscles"

? See higher, I've written there about it.

 

[BullsFan22]

The latest testing figures from FIS. I think it's important to still show previous months and compare. Italy being more tested than Finland is interesting.

http://www.fis-ski.com/mm/Document/documentlibrary/Medical/11/09/82/FIS_Tests_Monthly_inclDec2017_Neutral.pdf

 

[BullsFan22]

No Olympics for Shipulin and Ustiugov...

 

[repre]

Dopers must be excluded. Good for sports

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Dopers must be excluded. Good for sports

I am curious to find out what anti-doping 'breaches' were made by either Ustiugov and Shipulin. Ustiugov especially.

 

[Rider]

Re: Re:

I am curious to find out what anti-doping 'breaches' were made by either Ustiugov and Shipulin. Ustiugov especially.

Here is the answer:

Location: Kiev, Ukraine

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Here I don't think the exclusion of Shipulin and Ustiugov is not to do with anti-doping breaches but because for once, the onus is reversed, because of the unusual situation here. I don't know so much about the XC case, but looking at the other biathletes who've been excluded along with Shipulin, that is Volkov and Garanichev, they are the only other members of the Russian Olympic pre-selection who also competed in Sochi - Yurlova was off the team at that point and the other women hadn't broken through yet, whereas the men's team has been more stable, yet Babikov and Eliseev had yet to break through at the time of Sochi, and Tsvetkov missed much of that season injured. The data in the McLaren report did not suggest anything was wrong with the samples that were provided by those three athletes who have not passed the screening per se, however it was an incomplete picture because some of the samples were either missing, had been improperly stored or test results had not been recorded.

This meant there was nothing that could genuinely convey an ADRV, and hence why those athletes have been able to continue to compete unhindered (as Besseberg said this time last year, 22 of the 31 athletes in the report had at that point either been cleared as there was no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the athlete, or had already served the suspension for the period in question). However, the Russians are not representing Russia per se at Pyeongchang, instead they are in effect representing the IOC via the neutral Olympic Athletes from Russia designation, so are competing essentially by invitation of the IOC only; as such, rather than the onus being on the anti-doping authorities to prove the athlete had been involved in doping, the onus is on the athletes to prove they had not - which is fine for the athletes who weren't in Sochi but for those who were, unless those missing tests or test results could be found, they were going to be in a bad position when it came to establishing that they were not just "not guilty" but "expressly innocent".

Of course, the interesting thing will be to see if Timofey Lapshin lines up when the Games begin. He did not go to Sochi, but was part of the 2013-14 World Cup squad, and he is named in the McLaren report and with a failed test no less. He's served no sanction and is happily racing away representing South Korea at the moment...

 

[PeterB]

So the consensus here is that all Russian skiers bar Ustiugov and Shipulin indeed doped?

 

[repre]

They have RUSADA database from 2012-15 years and made this decision according to that information. Maybe Shipulin and Ustiugov were tested positive in some domestic competitions...Based on the previous investigations i dont think there are even a handful clean russian athletes, so i wouldn't rule out positive tests for Shipulin and Ustiugov. We'll have more information on there soon.
Russians can keep talking to themselves how the world is against them. This is definitely easier than man up and do something about mass doping in their country.

 

[May0maniac]

Is there any legit testing at the Russian domestic races?
From what I've heard (from a rathern infamous figure in Austrian XC skiing) the guys from the regional squads often go full genius at those events, so many of the top guys don't really want to compete against them.

 

[repre]

Re:

Is there any legit testing at the Russian domestic races?
From what I've heard (from a rathern infamous figure in Austrian XC skiing) the guys from the regional squads often go full genius at those events, so many of the top guys don't really want to compete against them.

Yeah, there are tests for competition like Izhevsk Rifle and others. At one domestic competition about a week ago 38 athletes withdrawed when doping testing arrived)))

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

Is there any legit testing at the Russian domestic races?
From what I've heard (from a rathern infamous figure in Austrian XC skiing) the guys from the regional squads often go full genius at those events, so many of the top guys don't really want to compete against them.

Yeah, there are tests for competition like Izhevsk Rifle and others. At one domestic competition about a week ago 38 athletes withdrawed when doping testing arrived)))

From what I've heard the Russian domestic scene used to be a wild west scenario, no idea how much has changed. One could say the same about the local amateur XC skiing scene here in South Tyrol, but there's a difference between those things, it's like comparing the Volta a Portugal to your typical granfondo dopers.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Is there any legit testing at the Russian domestic races?
From what I've heard (from a rathern infamous figure in Austrian XC skiing) the guys from the regional squads often go full genius at those events, so many of the top guys don't really want to compete against them.

Yeah, there are tests for competition like Izhevsk Rifle and others. At one domestic competition about a week ago 38 athletes withdrawed when doping testing arrived)))

Careful not to be too misleading though, those two statements need to be separated out. That multiple-athlete-withdrawal story was to do with athletics, nothing to do with the XC or biathlon teams that are being discussed here.

In the McLaren report files there are two athletes - Glazyrina and Lapshin - who submitted samples which contained banned substances at the Izhevsk Rifle 2013. This is a large Russian competition that happens over Christmas, which helps set the national team for January, so is a major target for people who are on the fringes of the team. There are also positive tests from the Russian championships but these are after Sochi and for no-name athletes who've never competed internationally so are likely 'lone wolf' doping issues. But then, these are the events that are taken into account for international selections, so perhaps doping testing has to be a bit better there.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

They have RUSADA database from 2012-15 years and made this decision according to that information. Maybe Shipulin and Ustiugov were tested positive in some domestic competitions...Based on the previous investigations i dont think there are even a handful clean russian athletes, so i wouldn't rule out positive tests for Shipulin and Ustiugov. We'll have more information on there soon.
Russians can keep talking to themselves how the world is against them. This is definitely easier than man up and do something about mass doping in their country.

"Maybe" this happened....'maybe' that happened...Really? Is that how these athletes are treated?? 'Maybe' they 'doped' 'maybe' they didn't...but whatever, we'll ban them anyway because they are medal candidates...

So far only Anton Babikov, Tatyana Akimova and Uliana Kaisheva are allowed to compete in Korea.

No xc list has been named as yet. I'd love to see the final list. I am willing to bet that list will be made up of skiers that have not even raced on the WC this year....

According to WADA and the IOC, any Russian that was within 1000km of Sochi in February 2014 was doped, including spectators and volunteers. So I hope that the IOC do the right thing and exclude any Russian from even entering S. Korea.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Here I don't think the exclusion of Shipulin and Ustiugov is not to do with anti-doping breaches but because for once, the onus is reversed, because of the unusual situation here. I don't know so much about the XC case, but looking at the other biathletes who've been excluded along with Shipulin, that is Volkov and Garanichev, they are the only other members of the Russian Olympic pre-selection who also competed in Sochi - Yurlova was off the team at that point and the other women hadn't broken through yet, whereas the men's team has been more stable, yet Babikov and Eliseev had yet to break through at the time of Sochi, and Tsvetkov missed much of that season injured. The data in the McLaren report did not suggest anything was wrong with the samples that were provided by those three athletes who have not passed the screening per se, however it was an incomplete picture because some of the samples were either missing, had been improperly stored or test results had not been recorded.

This meant there was nothing that could genuinely convey an ADRV, and hence why those athletes have been able to continue to compete unhindered (as Besseberg said this time last year, 22 of the 31 athletes in the report had at that point either been cleared as there was no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the athlete, or had already served the suspension for the period in question). However, the Russians are not representing Russia per se at Pyeongchang, instead they are in effect representing the IOC via the neutral Olympic Athletes from Russia designation, so are competing essentially by invitation of the IOC only; as such, rather than the onus being on the anti-doping authorities to prove the athlete had been involved in doping, the onus is on the athletes to prove they had not - which is fine for the athletes who weren't in Sochi but for those who were, unless those missing tests or test results could be found, they were going to be in a bad position when it came to establishing that they were not just "not guilty" but "expressly innocent".

Of course, the interesting thing will be to see if Timofey Lapshin lines up when the Games begin. He did not go to Sochi, but was part of the 2013-14 World Cup squad, and he is named in the McLaren report and with a failed test no less. He's served no sanction and is happily racing away representing South Korea at the moment...

It's unclear how Ustiugov could have doped 2012-2015, when he was a junior/u23 racer and already won a medal at the 2013 World's in Italy, finished in third in Davos Sprint in December 2013, won the Nove Mesto Sprint a month later, won a team sprint race in January 2015 (plus a number of other top 3 finishes at the WC that year), 2016 he wins several races, finishes third in TDS, second at the TDC, has a number of other podiums, then last year I don't even need to bring up, do I? He must have been tested like crazy. He won 7 total WC races (including the TDS) won the TDS, won a medal at each race at World's, including two gold medals, plus, again, a number of other top 3 finishes in other WC races. I mean last year he was literally tested after each race. Not to mention after the other 6 were temporarily banned, FIS went a step further and they were tested even more....How can Ustiugov be doping in 2012-2015, because of the 'laboratory in Moscow?' If he is getting tested now, since he trains exclusively in central Europe, gets on the podium as often as anybody not named Klaebo or Sundby, and they find no irregularities, why shouldn't he be allowed to compete? It just doesn't make sense. And why wait less than 3 weeks before the Olympics? What can athletes like him do now? They have no time to 'show' how clean they are.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

They have RUSADA database from 2012-15 years and made this decision according to that information. Maybe Shipulin and Ustiugov were tested positive in some domestic competitions...Based on the previous investigations i dont think there are even a handful clean russian athletes, so i wouldn't rule out positive tests for Shipulin and Ustiugov. We'll have more information on there soon.
Russians can keep talking to themselves how the world is against them. This is definitely easier than man up and do something about mass doping in their country.

So far only Anton Babikov, Tatyana Akimova and Uliana Kaisheva are allowed to compete in Korea.

No xc list has been named as yet. I'd love to see the final list. I am willing to bet that list will be made up of skiers that have not even raced on the WC this year....

According to WADA and the IOC, any Russian that was within 1000km of Sochi in February 2014 was doped, including spectators and volunteers. So I hope that the IOC do the right thing and exclude any Russian from even entering S. Korea.

The problem is that the source that lists those three along with the 'forbidden' list simply lists everybody who has been on the World Cup this season, since only Babikov, Akimova and Kaisheva have been 'approved', but simultaneously the SBR had claimed they had submitted 11 athletes for the Olympics, and only 3 have been rejected - Shipulin, Garanichev and Volkov. Interestingly, Kaisheva is mentioned in the McLaren report, as one of 12 juniors who went to a pre-Junior Worlds camp at Sochi in January 2014 - all of whom appear in the report only for one test on that date, for which 11 came back clean and one sample (Evsyunina's) did not have a result recorded. Yurlova and Virolaynen do not appear in the report at all, so although the report does not contain anything that suggests Kaisheva is guilty of anything other than having the wrong nationality as far as the IOC is concerned, for them to have been rejected and Kaisheva to have been approved shows that this is not the main source from which decisions are being made.

Now, if the SBR only nominated 11 athletes, of whom 3 have been approved, then they're going to have to dig deep into their reserve and hope that the IOC will approve some of the others that the Russians think have already been forbidden (and indeed may have been, but could appeal, though they'd need an Armitstead-esque turnaround to have a chance). For what it's worth, Yurlova's coach confirms they haven't been notified either way yet and they are still confident of making the Games, since Yurlova was thrown off the Russian team during 2013-14 and wasn't involved in Sochi at all. This suggests that they're still processing all the cases and the three approved so far are the most cut-and-dried cases. If we make an educated guess based on the squads from the last couple of World Cups, they're also the first ones alphabetically.