Doping in XC skiing

[Ingenerius]

You're correct about the age thing, and 2-5 years olds wouldn't start with skating in Switzerland either.

The point is that in Switzerland the go to technique is skating, while in Norway skating is, like zapato mentioned, dreaded, frowned upon, hated and never used.

Ice-skating certainly helps when learning to skate ski, but I wish it helped more, because I have played bandy all my life and am an excellent ice-skater, but I still really really suck at ski skating. Skating is hard. And is not real skiing ;-)

 

[zapata]

Russian Maxim Vylegzjanin is denied start in the (ridiculously named) upcoming event Tour de Ski, according to norwegian tv2. Hematocrit is too high, so he's denied start for five days. For health reasons, I guess, like it used to be in cycling, with the 50% rule. Can't figure out how to give a link since I'm on a mobile phone.

 

[Trond Vidar]

Hematocrit limit for men is 17,0 and 16,0 for the girls.

four men had too high crit before Tour de Ski:

Maksim Vylegsjanin
Martin Bajcicak
+2 from Estonia not named. Those who are named to start from Estonia is Kein Einaste, Algo Karp, Peeter Kummel, Jaak Mae, Aivar Rehemaa, Timo Simonlatser and Andrus Veerpalu

It doesn't mean that they are doping. Some have naturally high Hematocrit. Mine is 16,5 and if I am dehydrated I would have been on the list too (not that I ever would be elected to start

http://www.nrksport.no/langrenn/1.7444943

 

[roundabout]

It's Einaste and Karp since they are listed as DNS on the FIS page

 

[Trond Vidar]

Yes, and according to the national swedish television one of them doesn't have a high HB - but a non-correlation in the level between old and new bloodcells. Usually a sign of a transfusion/EPO

http://svt.se/2.146991/1.2284528/blodvardet_stoppar_ryska_stjarnan_i_tour_de_ski

 

[neineinei]

Yes, and according to the national swedish television one of them doesn't have a high HB - but a non-correlation in the level between old and new bloodcells. Usually a sign of a transfusion/EPO

http://svt.se/2.146991/1.2284528/blodvardet_stoppar_ryska_stjarnan_i_tour_de_ski

Seems to be Kärp.

 

[neineinei]

This was a random blood screening done yesterday. 8 out of 12 Norwegian skiiers were tested, according to the Norwegian head coach.

http://www.dagbladet.no/2010/12/31/sport/ski/langrenn/maksim_vylegsjanin/14900460/

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

One of the russian coaches banned by FIS (the main man), Yuri Charkovsky, is the new "logistics manager" of the russian team.
The 70-year old insists he is in fact anti-doping. "I was the one responsible for introducing the internal testing program".

 

[ingsve]

FIS president Gian-Franco Kasper is certain that there will be doped skiers in the upcoming World Championships. He says that they through blood profiling knows fairly well what riders are cheating but they don't have concrete proof in the shape of positive tests etc to ban them. He says they are powerless to do anything until they have enough proof.

 

[Benotti69]

FIS president Gian-Franco Kasper is certain that there will be doped skiers in the upcoming World Championships. He says that they through blood profiling knows fairly well what riders are cheating but they don't have concrete proof in the shape of positive tests etc to ban them. He says they are powerless to do anything until they have enough proof.

skiers?

good time to introduce the plasticizers test.

 

[Cloxxki]

skiers?

good time to introduce the plasticizers test.

Indeed. Glas or stainless bottles will be much harder to dispose of after a transfusion, the plasticizer has a great role. FIS as a self-promoted anti-doping organization should put emphasis on research in that direction.

Recently a Russian skier was put on the sidelines with a hct over over 50%. Others are caught with marginal doping products in their luggage.
I think the Russians are under a lot of pressure to perform (make the team), but won't be supported medically to reach that level, resulting in amateuristic or overzealous doping. They have a very bad name in skiing, possibly due to getting caught too often, while others dope more professionally and likely more efficiently. Russians DO train extremely hard.

 

[ingsve]

Russians DO train extremely hard.

Well, that goes hand in hand though. It's easier to train really hard when you're boosted by epo or transfusions and recover really well with hormones.

 

[Cloxxki]

Well, that goes hand in hand though. It's easier to train really hard when you're boosted by epo or transfusions and recover really well with hormones.

You are right of course, but I'm pretty sure they already train that way long before they get their first doping in. Western athletes are pretty lazy, and set different priorities. Just going through college is that much harder in Russia over most of the rest of the world. Making the cut in sports is apparently so hard, that one needs to live like a full pro, to time can be wasted on a dayjob.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

FIS president Gian-Franco Kasper is certain that there will be doped skiers in the upcoming World Championships. He says that they through blood profiling knows fairly well what riders are cheating but they don't have concrete proof in the shape of positive tests etc to ban them. He says they are powerless to do anything until they have enough proof.

He also said there might well be no positive tests at the Worlds, but it certainly wont be clean. Thought that was refreshing to hear. No BS.

They are considering night-time EPO-testing.

 

[meandmygitane]

One of the russian coaches banned by FIS (the main man), Yuri Charkovsky, is the new "logistics manager" of the russian team.
The 70-year old insists he is in fact anti-doping. "I was the one responsible for introducing the internal testing program".

This begs the question - testing to catch avoid the doping of athletes or testing to avoid detection of doped athletes.

Seems to me that the XC-team is clean but only to have outsourced the doping to individuals and training groups (like Pankratov who had to go Switzerland to aquire doping products).

How to get the benefits but avoid sanctions (and maybe even avoid paying for the products themselves)

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

You are right of course, but I'm pretty sure they already train that way long before they get their first doping in. Western athletes are pretty lazy, and set different priorities. Just going through college is that much harder in Russia over most of the rest of the world. Making the cut in sports is apparently so hard, that one needs to live like a full pro, to time can be wasted on a dayjob.

What an incredible blanket statement to make on Western athletes "versus" Russians.

As doped as Lance Armstrong was, for example, I have to wonder how many people out there would accuse him of being "pretty lazy"? Certainly compared to someone like Jan Ulrich, who came up under the old East German system (and was doped too).

Does one really think getting through college in Russia is that much harder than, say, Stanford? MIT? Cambridge? How about The Citadel?

Sure, there's plenty of lazy people in the west. And getting a degree from a college like University of Phoenix isn't like getting through Harvard Medical School. But let's be reasonable here.

 

[soslow]

I did my share of bike racing back in the day and also was on a collegiate XC ski team.

I was also roommate with a 2x US Nat’l cycling champ/TDF rider and trained with other national champs. I knew these people very well; well enough to know their secrets. You would know their names, but I won’t mention them even though I am saying nothing bad about them.

I never saw the cyclists doping and they could still wup you.

The collegiate XC ski teams were doping. This wasn’t the big times, so there was nothing sophisticated, ephedrine, and so forth. I saw people doping on other teams. My teammates never doped to my knowledge. My college ran our team as a club sport and the doping teams were run as varsity sports with scholarships. So there were financial incentives to win. I knew some of the downhillers also did amphetamines before runs. One of the guys told me the “Speed” just made the gates go by so much slower it was easier to hit the turns right.

 

[Cloxxki]

I did my share of bike racing back in the day and also was on a collegiate XC ski team.

I was also roommate with a 2x US Nat’l cycling champ/TDF rider and trained with other national champs. I knew these people very well; well enough to know their secrets. You would know their names, but I won’t mention them even though I am saying nothing bad about them.

I never saw the cyclists doping and they could still wup you.

The collegiate XC ski teams were doping. This wasn’t the big times, so there was nothing sophisticated, ephedrine, and so forth. I saw people doping on other teams. My teammates never doped to my knowledge. My college ran our team as a club sport and the doping teams were run as varsity sports with scholarships. So there were financial incentives to win. I knew some of the downhillers also did amphetamines before runs. One of the guys told me the “Speed” just made the gates go by so much slower it was easier to hit the turns right.

Thanks for sharing! Sure makes sense on the speed, although I never sniffed as much as a cigaret myself to speak from experience. I did hang with some pot blowing guys after evening school once, and I seemed to fly my bike home.

@Alpe d'Huez : no, I don't consider Lance lazy. Generalizations don't apply to him, by default.
I used to think he had 2 of the 3 main ingredients: top talent and training effort/technology. Now I consider it to be the latter plus doping, and less so the top talent.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I guess I just grew up in the Dan Gable-Jerry Rice years in America, and sort of take issue whenever someone mentions the "lazy Western athletes" concept.

 

[Cloxxki]

I guess I just grew up in the Dan Gable-Jerry Rice years in America, and sort of take issue whenever someone mentions the "lazy Western athletes" concept.

Being Western myself, albeit a lazy specimen, I was in fact merely echoing the view as I've been presented it by Russians. If they feel they work harder, and this way get their results, that's great. Westerners should be lucky they are quite probably a decade behind in "preparation". That recent 50% case (velixblahblah, forgot) did bother me greatly though, the guy was happily competing again this weekend, a bit off the pace he set earlier this season.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Google translation of a norwegian article on drug testing at the upcoming WC:

http://translate.google.se/translat.../toeff-dopoffensiv-under-vm.4885054-1743.html

 

[sadfitty]

Official test for plasticizers ?

http://translate.google.com/transla...sport/ski/vm/2011/artikkel.php?artid=10022070

 

[ingsve]

Official test for plasticizers ?

http://translate.google.com/transla...sport/ski/vm/2011/artikkel.php?artid=10022070

Yep, they will be using the plasticizer test in the world championship in Oslo.

 

[Ferminal]

Doesn't say in what capacity.

I guess they will just use it as an extra tool in their "passport" analysis. Would be good if it could be incorporated into the UCI passports in time for the silly season (of course they are never going to tell us). It could be a bluff, too.

Damsgaard comes off a bit slimy in that translation, imo.

 

[python]

Doesn't say in what capacity.

I guess they will just use it as an extra tool in their "passport" analysis. Would be good if it could be incorporated into the UCI passports in time for the silly season (of course they are never going to tell us). It could be a bluff, too.

Damsgaard comes off a bit slimy in that translation, imo.

i believe, a while back (as long ago as past summer) i read that the plasticizer test can only be used as a screening test. iow, they'll run it along with the typical batch of primary tests that are supposed to give red flags to be confirmed afterward by more specific tests.

i am convinced that after contador affair the plasticizer test is largely useless.

it will only catch the stupid and the careless. i agree with your impression of damsgaard - he knows this but puts agood spin on the impossibility of using glass containers (this was one of the questions). i call it bs b/c glass was used way before flexible bags became a norm. a cheater ingenuity is limitless if the will and the means are behind it.