Doping in XC skiing

[Ferminal]

It's hard to believe in "one bad apple" in sports where everyone competes under national teams, going through the same program.

At least in cycling there are people from all over the world in a team, they don't always train together, and they aren't "coached" within the team environment. Within a team there will be a few sub-teams who generally race together, it is more believable that doping could be isolated to only a few, rather than suspicion spreading to everyone in the team.

 

[RdBiker]

Anyone surprised? Seeing how the Finns skied at times recently, I'd be baffled if this was the only thing they tried. Surely HGH helps and it's addictive, but it doesn't do THAT...?

Actually he was one of the worst Finnish skiers in the WC last spring But honestly I don't know if that's a good thing or not regarding the doping use of the other Finns

The problem with this positive in my opinion is that Lallukka was pretty much an outsider to the Finnish national team and trained mostly on his own. This means that the national federation will probably just brush it off by saying "he didn't train with us so he's just one bad apple"...
One thing they will surely point out is that they did reject him from the national team a few years back when he denied them a full blood exam.

 

[roundabout]

I don't think he was that bad in the Worlds though. He was very good in the relay and was top-10 in the mass start 50.

I see that he didn't race a lot in the WC though.

However thinking more about it I have an impression that Lallukka prefers freestyle to classic by some way so that can explain his small number of races a little.

 

[Cloxxki]

The team could refuse responsibility for a wandering loaner, but the athlete will have to agree for this to work out. He is the one getting a 2-year ban (most likely), and might get some time off telling the FIS and WADA about his sources and medical inspirations. If he was a loaner indeed, does he really need team support to do his thing? He could stay away from the national team, show up to races, and be so fast that he can't be ingored. You see that in speed skating a lot.
Let's hope Lallukka knows more, and sings.

 

[Ingenerius]

.......Heikkinen is famously inconsistent and generally pretty poor actually, but consistently overperforms in important competitions. Including the bronze medal in Liberec just behind Veerpalu and Bauer in a very very doped race. The whole finnish team for men was a bit fishy in Oslo, especially Lallukka. They did have quite good skis though......

Well well, I called it. Lallukka was the stand out doper in the Oslo world championship. Good that he is caught. I guess Heikkinen gets new chances and will do a very good Tour de Ski this year, I'm gonna guess top 5 at least.

So nice that the cross country skiing season has started again. Northug in Vasaloppet is gonna be the highlight of the year.

 

[Cloxxki]

Northug in Vasaloppet is gonna be the highlight of the year.

He is not the kind to go for a crazy record unless people pull him. No-one is likely to challenge him in a sprint. What's exciting about him doing that race? Surely he can do it on modified skis without grip zone, it's been done before. It will be fast, but only if he is paced.

Anyone know how long a typical dose of HGH stays detectable in urine? Would be cool if it stays in the body long enough to catch dopers long after they've realized it's not detectable, and not even requiring retro-active testing.

 

[Ingenerius]

He is not the kind to go for a crazy record unless people pull him. No-one is likely to challenge him in a sprint. What's exciting about him doing that race? Surely he can do it on modified skis without grip zone, it's been done before. It will be fast, but only if he is paced.

What record are you talking about? There are no records like that in cross country skiing, the snow decides the possible pace. The exciting thing will be how he fares against the specialists, and if he will manage to win.

90 km almost just "staking" (pigging(?)) is quite different from the normal races he does, and in a normal year he would probably be chanceless. This year though without a championship he has said that it is a goal and that he will do specific training for it after Tour de Ski. It has been ages since a world cup contender has been (or tried to be) competitive in Vasaloppet so gonna be exciting to see Northug and other world cup contenders try this year. I'm guessing Northug is the only one of them with a chance.

So seeing Northug vs Brink vs Tynell vs Ahrlin vs Svärd vs Rescjak vs Aukland and others is gonna be very exciting.

 

[Cloxxki]

What record are you talking about? There are no records like that in cross country skiing, the snow decides the possible pace. The exciting thing will be how he fares against the specialists, and if he will manage to win.

90 km almost just "staking" (pigging(?)) is quite different from the normal races he does, and in a normal year he would probably be chanceless. This year though without a championship he has said that it is a goal and that he will do specific training for it after Tour de Ski. It has been ages since a world cup contender has been (or tried to be) competitive in Vasaloppet so gonna be exciting to see Northug and other world cup contenders try this year. I'm guessing Northug is the only one of them with a chance.

So seeing Northug vs Brink vs Tynell vs Ahrlin vs Svärd vs Rescjak vs Aukland and others is gonna be very exciting.

We have different opinions of exciting in XC. I have little doubt in NOrthug's potential win the Vasa. And a lot of doubt in any other skier to put the tempo high enough for him to let go. Especially if he's prepared for it. He's not the definitive VO2 champ, but chances to drop him are very rarely seriously pursued. He loves the short little accelerations people do, in vain. He is Mr. Little Acceleration. The final hill at TdS, we see his real potential, at full zoom. He's great, but not the greatest in all ways.
I'll agree it's going to be exciting if the lead group skis like the finish is at 40km, and then the next 50km the same. If at any moment over the 90km there is no-one to push the tempo above comfort levels, Northug will be there in the final sprint. Which is boring.
Back on doping topic, and I'll admit I'm dancing on soft sand here:
One advantage the others might have over Northug is that he's been tested more vigorously over the years. Sure, the others will get their post race tests, big deal. Northug, if he swings that way at all, has less room to play with. In that respect, he might in fact be hammered by the marathon guys, and yet you won't see them in a 50k race. Too testy?

 

[meat puppet]

I think your assesment was sound, Cloxxki. I admire Northug's skills, but I do think he often makes races boring so I root for the others.

In normal XC mass starts, the only ways to beat Northug appear to be constant very high tempo over a hilly terrain - a bit like Johaug mulled Björgen in Oslo. In this case Northug's size could, at least theoretically, be used against him by a lighter skier with more W/kg. Or a better VO2/kg, whichever is more suitable. We'll see in January on the Alpe Cermis.

The other one I think is a BIG acceleration and insane tempo for, say, the last 3km - especially if there is a real hill included. A bit like Hellner did in the Oslo sprint finals, when he caught Northug napping and flew away on the Grattishaugen(?). Or finally, a technical high speed finish like in Vancouver, where technique, gliding and poleless skills count more than brute force. I think his technique is good, but Hellner is better in this kinda final. But even these ways are often very thin.

In individual interval starts against the clock I think he is more beatable. Perhaps pacing could be a way to work him over in the marathon races. However, I would bet that no one will dare trying it in the Vasaloppet.

Also agree with those thinking that Lallukka and Heikkinen's efforts were (more than?) a bit off in Oslo. The media spinned Heikkinen's WC as an "insane day" and lauded the art of peaking ad nauseam till summer. At worst, the tone was not that much off from the most ridiculous Armstrong stories, in fact.

In any case, Lallukka's case might start a little meltdown in Finnish XC skiing yet again. Our minister of sports and culture has already stated that the budget is prolly cut if Lallukka is indeed banned. Im quite sure that should the B sample be positive too, the "but he's a loner and a bad apple" strategy will indeed be tried. This is true too, as far as I know he does mainly train alone and so on, but boring as it may be, I believe all the top dogs of the sport are on a programme.

On another note, it is always both baffling and amusing when Jarmo Punkkinen's name comes up re doping in XC skiing. Back in high school, he was the PE teacher of some "friends of mine". Never knew he had another life as the James Bond of international (blood) doping until recently.

 

[neineinei]

It is Gratishaugen ("Free hill" - no ticket required, it is no longer so though, you have to buy a ticket for Gratishaugen too). Grattis is Swedish for congratulation. A hill for Swedish congratulations in Holmenkollen seems a bit unlikely. I think it was another hill though, when the Norwegian press is writing about it they write : "the place the Swedes tried to name "Hellner-hill"".

http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/11/15/sport/ski/langrenn/doping/juha_lallukka/19027181/

Anyway, Douwe de Boer is assisting Juha Lallukka now. He was present with Lallukka when the B-sample was tested in Helsinki on Monday.

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/maastohii...iavustajan-hollannista/art-1288428644177.html
http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/langrenn/artikkel.php?artid=10023922

Lallukka swears he is innocent.
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/maastohii...vannoo-olevansa-syyton/art-1288428709571.html

 

[meat puppet]

^ Cheers. My swedish is rudimentary so I didn't know whether to spell it with one tee or two, though I am aware of the different meanings between gratis and grattis. Just couldn't figure it out in this context right away

Anyhow, the B sample was also positive: http://yle.fi/urheilu/lajit/hiihtol...tiivinen_lallukka_kiistaa_kayton_3032953.html

He still denies it.

 

[gustienordic]

I think your assesment was sound, Cloxxki. I admire Northug's skills, but I do think he often makes races boring so I root for the others.

In normal XC mass starts, the only ways to beat Northug appear to be constant very high tempo over a hilly terrain - a bit like Johaug mulled Björgen in Oslo. In this case Northug's size could, at least theoretically, be used against him by a lighter skier with more W/kg. Or a better VO2/kg, whichever is more suitable. We'll see in January on the Alpe Cermis.

The other one I think is a BIG acceleration and insane tempo for, say, the last 3km - especially if there is a real hill included. A bit like Hellner did in the Oslo sprint finals, when he caught Northug napping and flew away on the Grattishaugen(?). Or finally, a technical high speed finish like in Vancouver, where technique, gliding and poleless skills count more than brute force. I think his technique is good, but Hellner is better in this kinda final. But even these ways are often very thin.

In individual interval starts against the clock I think he is more beatable. Perhaps pacing could be a way to work him over in the marathon races. However, I would bet that no one will dare trying it in the Vasaloppet.

Also agree with those thinking that Lallukka and Heikkinen's efforts were (more than?) a bit off in Oslo. The media spinned Heikkinen's WC as an "insane day" and lauded the art of peaking ad nauseam till summer. At worst, the tone was not that much off from the most ridiculous Armstrong stories, in fact.

In any case, Lallukka's case might start a little meltdown in Finnish XC skiing yet again. Our minister of sports and culture has already stated that the budget is prolly cut if Lallukka is indeed banned. Im quite sure that should the B sample be positive too, the "but he's a loner and a bad apple" strategy will indeed be tried. This is true too, as far as I know he does mainly train alone and so on, but boring as it may be, I believe all the top dogs of the sport are on a programme.

On another note, it is always both baffling and amusing when Jarmo Punkkinen's name comes up re doping in XC skiing. Back in high school, he was the PE teacher of some "friends of mine". Never knew he had another life as the James Bond of international (blood) doping until recently.

The state of Finnish skiing saddens me. I like the Finns, but they seem to be getting involved in all kinds of scandals. The last in 2002? (I think). I also agree with the point about Northug. I have much more respect for Dario; his technique is so smooth and excellent and has shown that he can win races. I'm surprised that the ski community has not changed their strategy when racing with Northug. I've of the opinion that a few of the powerful old guys (Piller, Angerer, Vittoz, Bauer, etc) could break away and stay away. But I'm not sure.

 

[Cloxxki]

As much as I appreciate Cologna's skiing style and spirit...
I don't see why we'd trust him any better than Zülle or Rominger.

It's Northug's sprint power which makes him believable. He's stronger by such a margin, at least THAT was not just because of dope. No-one can dope like that. Those who come close to him are to be suspected.

Northug is a great atlete, but his aerobic capacity (likely with just a handful of cyclist all over the world above him) is in fact his weakest point. Amazing for a guy who win 10-15km individual races at WC level. He is that good, and I hate him for it.
To be on topic, I would suspect Northug sooner for enhancements of his endurance through blood doping and HGH, than through something sprint-specific. His signature moves are just him, he kicks that way. A freak.

Good that the B-sample came up positive also. Now the sport is one man cleaner. And others will become much more careful with HGH here onwards.
I hate HGH use because it works longer on the body than a single race. Use it all your career, and at 35 you'll be better off than the clean guy lining up next to you.

 

[gustienordic]

As much as I appreciate Cologna's skiing style and spirit...
I don't see why we'd trust him any better than Zülle or Rominger.

It's Northug's sprint power which makes him believable. He's stronger by such a margin, at least THAT was not just because of dope. No-one can dope like that. Those who come close to him are to be suspected.

Northug is a great atlete, but his aerobic capacity (likely with just a handful of cyclist all over the world above him) is in fact his weakest point. Amazing for a guy who win 10-15km individual races at WC level. He is that good, and I hate him for it.
To be on topic, I would suspect Northug sooner for enhancements of his endurance through blood doping and HGH, than through something sprint-specific. His signature moves are just him, he kicks that way. A freak.

Good that the B-sample came up positive also. Now the sport is one man cleaner. And others will become much more careful with HGH here onwards.
I hate HGH use because it works longer on the body than a single race. Use it all your career, and at 35 you'll be better off than the clean guy lining up next to you.

How big do you think the doping problem is in skiing? I wanna think that the Swedes & Norwegians are mostly clean, the Italians & French seem to be clean, the Americans are either completely clean or they are absolutely terrible at doping... I've heard that Great Britians ski team is loaded with doping, but I don't know how true that is. Marit seems to be too good to be clean however; she simply skis away from the field in almost every race.

 

[meat puppet]

I also do believe that Northug's sprint is one of his most natural talents.

But - how widespread is doping in skiing? You want my opinion, I think it is rather systematic among, say, the top40 contenders at least. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the least flawed control system such as the blood passport is not even in use at the moment.

Also I hold no nationalistic bias towards favouring the Finns, I think they have messed things up epically in many occasions. But I honestly dont think that the Norwegians or Swedes (or any others for that matter) are that much cleaner. They are tidier to be sure and probably better equipped in that department too.

Why so? Well, they regularly beat the dopers.

And actually my fave skier is Per Elofsson. Simply for his amazingly beautiful skate technique. He is the only modern top skier about whom I would even entertain the possibility of having raced clean.

EDIT: Also, should we not make a thread for this years world cup? There must be more to skiing than meets the clinic

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

I also do believe that Northug's sprint is one of his most natural talents.

But - how widespread is doping in skiing? You want my opinion, I think it is rather systematic among, say, the top40 contenders at least. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the least flawed control system such as the blood passport is not even in use at the moment.

Also I hold no nationalistic bias towards favouring the Finns, I think they have messed things up epically in many occasions. But I honestly dont think that the Norwegians or Swedes (or any others for that matter) are that much cleaner. They are tidier to be sure and probably better equipped in that department too.

Why so? Well, they regularly beat the dopers.

And actually my fave skier is Per Elofsson. Simply for his amazingly beautiful skate technique. He is the only modern top skier about whom I would even entertain the possibility of having raced clean.

EDIT: Also, should we not make a thread for this years world cup? There must be more to skiing than meets the clinic

Dont forget Bjørn Dhælie

 

[Cloxxki]

If I look at the time differences the Norwegians make in biathlon on recognized top rollerskiers, which seem to rather win time on technique rather than lose it... I have to agree the Norwegians are suspect.
In biathlon, Tarje Boe seemed to be put on the program from one year to the other. Marvellous skier also, but a bit too marvellous perhaps.
There ought to sometimes be a talent or skier showing the Norwegians how it's done, but that doesn't seem to happen. They either get caught, or fail to exist.

The Americans in XC seem to be totally into it, strong technically. They have fighting spirit and top notch ski prep. But they're dropped like bad habbits. Like they have tiny engines. They are not idiot dopers, as they are not testing positive. So I must presume them clean.
The Norwegians and Swedes, I suspect have the best programs in all of sports. No positives, no leaks. Must drive the Fins absolutely wild. Let alone the Russians who keep getting caught. They try bravely, but the testers are a couple years ahead of the Russians.

I see one of my fellow countrymen losing betweeen 10 and 17% in lap times over top biathletes. I know the guy, he lives like a ski monk, skis really, really well. Maybe not perfect, but isn't losing great deals of time. 10% is just a lot of time to lose on a top day, at pro level. Half of the course points down (OK, not quite), and people like that just don't lose time there.
Sure we're a small sport in a small country, but the guy was really good in rollerski races. I don't understand the time difference. On a bike, if it doesn't get tooooo fast or technical (I'm tall), I am in that range compared to MTB superpro's, and I'm not even all that talented or trained. Similar speeds, similar altitude profiles.
Bjoergen I cannot see how she is clean. Loner type, picks her races, and wins them with room to spare. All but real long and tough uphills (she's really, really muscular).
In biathlon there is Neuner as one of the ski speed miracles. I know she now has even challengers in her own Germany. Neuner though, seems to have a her own uniwue kind of talent. Slow twitch, great strength. Uses a V2 skate style with such long glides that it looks like V2alt. She makes it work. What speaks for her, is that she was fast the moment they let her loose on big tracks. Useless at the standing shoot, but made up soooo much time. Very outspoken about doping. Wants to be tested MORE often. Seems to feel her competitors can use a bit of testing, and is open to be tested more herself. I like that. But there is a lot I like about her.
Britain's got a young fellow Musgrave doing amazingly well. Lives in Sweden, doesn't he? If he's getten into the secret club there, well, we'll see a lot more of him for sure. He was fast against global youngsters though, he just might be a Paula Radcliffe type stand-out talent. I hope he is. I love skiers from unlikely countries. I'm one myself. Aspiring to get my technique to the point where I don't lose time, and then hit the shorter doublepole classic races. Skating is more fun, but sooo hard if you're motorically challenged. In a country without XC culture, or any ski prep machines let alone trails.

 

[roundabout]

EDIT: Also, should we not make a thread for this years world cup? There must be more to skiing than meets the clinic

Yes, we should.

Maybe a thread for all wintersports even?

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

If I look at the time differences the Norwegians make in biathlon on recognized top rollerskiers, which seem to rather win time on technique rather than lose it... I have to agree the Norwegians are suspect.
In biathlon, Tarje Boe seemed to be put on the program from one year to the other. Marvellous skier also, but a bit too marvellous perhaps.
There ought to sometimes be a talent or skier showing the Norwegians how it's done, but that doesn't seem to happen. They either get caught, or fail to exist.

The Americans in XC seem to be totally into it, strong technically. They have fighting spirit and top notch ski prep. But they're dropped like bad habbits. Like they have tiny engines. They are not idiot dopers, as they are not testing positive. So I must presume them clean.
The Norwegians and Swedes, I suspect have the best programs in all of sports. No positives, no leaks. Must drive the Fins absolutely wild. Let alone the Russians who keep getting caught. They try bravely, but the testers are a couple years ahead of the Russians.

I see one of my fellow countrymen losing betweeen 10 and 17% in lap times over top biathletes. I know the guy, he lives like a ski monk, skis really, really well. Maybe not perfect, but isn't losing great deals of time. 10% is just a lot of time to lose on a top day, at pro level. Half of the course points down (OK, not quite), and people like that just don't lose time there.
Sure we're a small sport in a small country, but the guy was really good in rollerski races. I don't understand the time difference. On a bike, if it doesn't get tooooo fast or technical (I'm tall), I am in that range compared to MTB superpro's, and I'm not even all that talented or trained. Similar speeds, similar altitude profiles.
Bjoergen I cannot see how she is clean. Loner type, picks her races, and wins them with room to spare. All but real long and tough uphills (she's really, really muscular).
In biathlon there is Neuner as one of the ski speed miracles. I know she now has even challengers in her own Germany. Neuner though, seems to have a her own uniwue kind of talent. Slow twitch, great strength. Uses a V2 skate style with such long glides that it looks like V2alt. She makes it work. What speaks for her, is that she was fast the moment they let her loose on big tracks. Useless at the standing shoot, but made up soooo much time. Very outspoken about doping. Wants to be tested MORE often. Seems to feel her competitors can use a bit of testing, and is open to be tested more herself. I like that. But there is a lot I like about her.
Britain's got a young fellow Musgrave doing amazingly well. Lives in Sweden, doesn't he? If he's getten into the secret club there, well, we'll see a lot more of him for sure. He was fast against global youngsters though, he just might be a Paula Radcliffe type stand-out talent. I hope he is. I love skiers from unlikely countries. I'm one myself. Aspiring to get my technique to the point where I don't lose time, and then hit the shorter doublepole classic races. Skating is more fun, but sooo hard if you're motorically challenged. In a country without XC culture, or any ski prep machines let alone trails.

wait to you see his brother, predicted to be even better...

 

[maltiv]

I have to agree the Norwegians are suspect.
In biathlon, Tarje Boe seemed to be put on the program from one year to the other. Marvellous skier also, but a bit too marvellous perhaps.
There ought to sometimes be a talent or skier showing the Norwegians how it's done, but that doesn't seem to happen. They either get caught, or fail to exist.

I don't know why you think Tarjei Bø is particularly suspicious. At 14 or so, Bjørndalen said Bø was "the greatest biathlon talent of all time". It's not like he came out of nowhere. The only reason he didn't have his breakthrough earlier was because he had mono.

If the Norwegians are doped then they are ridiculously good at it as there's never been one single case, none of them have had suspicious blood values (look on the leaked suspicion list, no Norwegians on it) and there has never been any evidence or clues whatsoever. I agree that some of them are a bit suspicious though (Frode Estil for example) but I highly doubt there's anything organized as you seem to be suggesting.

 

[sadfitty]

If I look at the time differences the Norwegians make in biathlon on recognized top rollerskiers, which seem to rather win time on technique rather than lose it... I have to agree the Norwegians are suspect.
In biathlon, Tarje Boe seemed to be put on the program from one year to the other. Marvellous skier also, but a bit too marvellous perhaps.
There ought to sometimes be a talent or skier showing the Norwegians how it's done, but that doesn't seem to happen. They either get caught, or fail to exist.

The Americans in XC seem to be totally into it, strong technically. They have fighting spirit and top notch ski prep. But they're dropped like bad habbits. Like they have tiny engines. They are not idiot dopers, as they are not testing positive. So I must presume them clean.
The Norwegians and Swedes, I suspect have the best programs in all of sports. No positives, no leaks. Must drive the Fins absolutely wild. Let alone the Russians who keep getting caught. They try bravely, but the testers are a couple years ahead of the Russians.

I see one of my fellow countrymen losing betweeen 10 and 17% in lap times over top biathletes. I know the guy, he lives like a ski monk, skis really, really well. Maybe not perfect, but isn't losing great deals of time. 10% is just a lot of time to lose on a top day, at pro level. Half of the course points down (OK, not quite), and people like that just don't lose time there.
Sure we're a small sport in a small country, but the guy was really good in rollerski races. I don't understand the time difference. On a bike, if it doesn't get tooooo fast or technical (I'm tall), I am in that range compared to MTB superpro's, and I'm not even all that talented or trained. Similar speeds, similar altitude profiles.
Bjoergen I cannot see how she is clean. Loner type, picks her races, and wins them with room to spare. All but real long and tough uphills (she's really, really muscular).
In biathlon there is Neuner as one of the ski speed miracles. I know she now has even challengers in her own Germany. Neuner though, seems to have a her own uniwue kind of talent. Slow twitch, great strength. Uses a V2 skate style with such long glides that it looks like V2alt. She makes it work. What speaks for her, is that she was fast the moment they let her loose on big tracks. Useless at the standing shoot, but made up soooo much time. Very outspoken about doping. Wants to be tested MORE often. Seems to feel her competitors can use a bit of testing, and is open to be tested more herself. I like that. But there is a lot I like about her.
Britain's got a young fellow Musgrave doing amazingly well. Lives in Sweden, doesn't he? If he's getten into the secret club there, well, we'll see a lot more of him for sure. He was fast against global youngsters though, he just might be a Paula Radcliffe type stand-out talent. I hope he is. I love skiers from unlikely countries. I'm one myself. Aspiring to get my technique to the point where I don't lose time, and then hit the shorter doublepole classic races. Skating is more fun, but sooo hard if you're motorically challenged. In a country without XC culture, or any ski prep machines let alone trails.

First of all, you clearly don't know anything about skiing. Roller skiing performance is in no way predicative of skiing performance as the techniques are completely different. Big difference between snow and tarmac, summer and winter.

Secondly, Bjoergen is a loner? She's been on national teams for almost 15 years hardly a loner like Lallukka.


Thirdly, she picks her races? She has been winning from november to late march, 10-12 races a year. She's just decided not to do the TdS because the load is too much.

 

[Cloxxki]

First of all, you clearly don't know anything about skiing. Roller skiing performance is in no way predicative of skiing performance as the techniques are completely different. Big difference between snow and tarmac, summer and winter.

Secondly, Bjoergen is a loner? She's been on national teams for almost 15 years hardly a loner like Lallukka.


Thirdly, she picks her races? She has been winning from november to late march, 10-12 races a year. She's just decided not to do the TdS because the load is too much.

Thanks for continuing a good tradition. If I got a penny for every time someone told I know nothing about skiing....

I have to agree about your first point. I can't even stay upright standing still on rollerskis let alone ski them, but brought home an XC nationals medal earlier this year. My on-road performance could not predict anyone ever skiing behind me in a race situation. Yet, they did, quite a few of them.

Bjoergen has her own race schedule is what I meant to say. Skips big races, comes back and wins with ridiculous margins. I'll likely know much less about her than you, in part due to desinterest. I genuinely don't like her. Sportsfans get that sometimes. From the first moment I saw her on TV, I just didn't like her. Until 2006, I've had an unbroken chain of only people I didn't know (or didn't like) getting caught doping. Then Landis (really liked him), then T. Dekker. I disliked Bjoergen before 2006 though. Since, I've mostly left my subjective reasoning for guessing between clean and doper. Some people I dislike may in fact be clean.

Back on Boe:
I hope it's that. Just magical talent. In a country with so many kids growing up doing biathlon, it would not be so strange.
I have a hard time believing though, that the Norwegians aren't hardly ever matched for speed, while surely there must be some mega blood dopers amongst their contenders. Russians are not exactly lazy, and not afraid to be caught, yet their speeds are not shattering the Vikings. You'd expect performances where the first of them is 2% behind a silly Russian experiment. But that doesn't happen.

We'd be naive to think dopers not out there. Especially since people are being caught the moment something is tested for. And we'd be fanboys to think that a whole nation (OK, theirr top 10 or so) can fend off the difference blood doping brings to such a sport. It's all about O2 processing. Skiers after all get high VO2max scores? Or is that a myth coming to be from Daelie doing a treadmill run following an EPO/bloodbag treatment? I wonder how I'd do with my Hc jacked to 60%. I pedaled to a 506W aerobic max (sportsmedical test) when in my offseason and squeeky clean. No doping would make me challenge Daelie's numbers, but still, it matters when you're tested, right? Tests are like races you don't have to try or want it, just pedal until it ends.

We know from cycling that near untouchable Lemond was suddenly an also-ran when the EPO era took shape. We know skiers and cyclists like to team up to blood dope. We know Daelie managed to keep winning some time into the EPO era. Retiring a few years before it became detectable.

I will also mention Johann Olav Koss' magical home soil rides in speed skating, Lillehammer Olympics '94. After which he quit. Turned docter(!), and focused on saving the children of the world. Oh and a book about team building.
His chain of WR's was between March '90 and Feb '94. Early adopter? Or with speed skating a few years behind the curve medically, he got his performances in before the first top skater went doping?
I have no idea how Norwegian sports are intertwined, but it would be a waste to keep inventing the wheel in each and every sport.

I do seem to see that in NO and SE the national teams are stable and important. Lots of centralized knowledge there. Also about the ski prep side. Is it that much different from the Bruyneel deal?
If THEY are all doing it clean, what the heck are the other countries messing about?

Just a note, I used to be a fan of Bjoendalen. Easy to love, as are other record breaking champions. I've decided a few years ago that I actually don't like him. Amazing athlete, of course. But don't like him. Something about the tone of his winning spirit.

 

[gustienordic]

Thirdly, she picks her races? She has been winning from november to late march, 10-12 races a year. She's just decided not to do the TdS because the load is too much.

That is true; JK may have beat her in points for the crystal globe, but I think almost every time they went head to head Marit beat JK.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Back on Boe:
I hope it's that. Just magical talent. In a country with so many kids growing up doing biathlon, it would not be so strange.
I have a hard time believing though, that the Norwegians aren't hardly ever matched for speed, while surely there must be some mega blood dopers amongst their contenders. Russians are not exactly lazy, and not afraid to be caught, yet their speeds are not shattering the Vikings. You'd expect performances where the first of them is 2% behind a silly Russian experiment. But that doesn't happen.

While we're on Bø, what makes him so special is not that he's so good on the skis but that his shooting is so steady after it; the world Biathlon scene has quite a few people who are lightning on the skis but pay for it with inconsistency with the rifle - Lars Berger, Arnd Peiffer, Miriam Gößner, to name but three (Germany are particularly good at turning out fast skiers whose shooting could do with improving). Martin Fourcade looks like being one of Bø's nearest challengers in the foreseeable future; he often manages to ski fast and shoot well to maintain contention or pull himself back into it after a bad start; Tora Berger is similarly excellent at conserving energy (and shooting her final set of targets faster than most people can get two shots away). If he's got a steady hand and skis fast anyway, he has access to a good program (legal or illegal) in the Norwegian team and his talent will be nurtured from a young age better than probably anywhere except maybe Germany.

 

[Cloxxki]

While we're on Bø, what makes him so special is not that he's so good on the skis but that his shooting is so steady after it; the world Biathlon scene has quite a few people who are lightning on the skis but pay for it with inconsistency with the rifle - Lars Berger, Arnd Peiffer, Miriam Gößner, to name but three (Germany are particularly good at turning out fast skiers whose shooting could do with improving). Martin Fourcade looks like being one of Bø's nearest challengers in the foreseeable future; he often manages to ski fast and shoot well to maintain contention or pull himself back into it after a bad start; Tora Berger is similarly excellent at conserving energy (and shooting her final set of targets faster than most people can get two shots away). If he's got a steady hand and skis fast anyway, he has access to a good program (legal or illegal) in the Norwegian team and his talent will be nurtured from a young age better than probably anywhere except maybe Germany.

Indeed. For some reason, I do like the German skiing a lot. Will they get the shooting half right this time? I root for them. I don't don't have that in any other sport. Not even XC.

When Martin Fourcade has a good day on the skis, he can only be beat by a superfast guy with a rare flawless shoot. Sure seems to have his game together.
I'm a Lars Berger fan. "Oh, I didn't have a good biathlon season. Let's become XC world champ then." And then sticking to biathlon forever anyway, because he likes it so much. He and his sis have odd short moments where they get in really good shape, physically and mentally, and cannot be beaten. Tora having that odd way of skiing the last lap way faster than the first one, and faster than the competition. When she's in shape.

But what about the Russians. For some reason, they tend to be great shots. Their shooting at times is so boring, by lack of errors. They're doing something right, and it seems there's little room for it to be doping.

Simone Hauswald seemed odd to me. Or I remember incorrectly. At first had to fight to be on the WC team at alll. Slowish, for a German, but at times good with the shoot. Then at the end of her career, she found ski speed, at times the fastest of the scene, and started missing important shots. She then retired. If The Clinic were a biathlon-specific forum, that would raise some eyebrows. Late career speed, really?