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Dumoulin.

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Re: Re:

"Jeff"":15cctj8i][quote="Benotti69 said:
[quote=""Jeff"":15cctj8i]

Please, no common sense here. Thanks
The common sense in cycling is that GT contenders (and the rest) are doped.

When did that change?

Oh yeah when a fellow countryman starts to win......... :rolleyes:[/quote]I can already see you sitting in front of your television with a bucket of popcorn. It must be a great time watching cycling together with you. No kidding. :)[/quote]

Having the common sense to realise that a lot of cyclists are doped does not in any way take away the entertainment value for me, in a somewhat similar way to realising that some athletes are far more hard working than others. In fact, one of my preferred riders is Froome. I don't care if he's doped or not, because I find him entertaining to watch and find his upbringing fascinating, but then again, I have enough common sense to realise he is most likely doping, and am happy to acknowledge this
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
hrotha said:
You know who else didn't battle? His rivals. As in, they held hands instead of making the mountains selective.
Yeah right. Selective enough for proven climbers like Valverde, Quintana, Froome, Pozzovivo, Moreno etc.. to be dropped on several occasions; but not enough for Dumoulin to lose more than a few seconds here and there.
Don't put words in my mouth. That Dumoulin did so well in the climbs is suspicious as hell, but that doesn't mean they were raced hard. You can tell because the gaps were very small and nobody moved until the very end.

That said, listing all the contenders who very obviously underperformed or crashed out (plus Moreno) doesn't add any weight to an argument.
 
Aug 11, 2012
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Re: Re:

PremierAndrew said:
"Jeff"":35292wa9][quote="Benotti69 said:
[quote=""Jeff"":35292wa9]

Please, no common sense here. Thanks
The common sense in cycling is that GT contenders (and the rest) are doped.

When did that change?

Oh yeah when a fellow countryman starts to win......... :rolleyes:
I can already see you sitting in front of your television with a bucket of popcorn. It must be a great time watching cycling together with you. No kidding. :)[/quote]

Having the common sense to realise that a lot of cyclists are doped does not in any way take away the entertainment value for me, in a somewhat similar way to realising that some athletes are far more hard working than others. In fact, one of my preferred riders is Froome. I don't care if he's doped or not, because I find him entertaining to watch and find his upbringing fascinating, but then again, I have enough common sense to realise he is most likely doping, and am happy to acknowledge this[/quote]Good for you. I am happy to acknowledge that Froome is an awful rider.
 
Oct 9, 2012
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Re: Re:

the sceptic said:
pastronef said:
hrotha said:
I'm not sure I get his point either. Is it "Imagine how much faster he'd go at Sky", or "Imagine what kind of innuendo we'd be hearing if he was at Sky"?
yep
"imagine the party on twitter if he rode for Sky"
Imagine how many bots would be trolling this thread if he was british
Imagine he couldn't have gone for own success ?
A lot of talented riders at sky have to work for the head honcho. Good thing a rider from a small team is at the head of the GC now. Is it clean? We'll see eventually.
 
Re: Re:

hrotha said:
DFA123 said:
hrotha said:
You know who else didn't battle? His rivals. As in, they held hands instead of making the mountains selective.
Yeah right. Selective enough for proven climbers like Valverde, Quintana, Froome, Pozzovivo, Moreno etc.. to be dropped on several occasions; but not enough for Dumoulin to lose more than a few seconds here and there.
Don't put words in my mouth. That Dumoulin did so well in the climbs is suspicious as hell, but that doesn't mean they were raced hard. You can tell because the gaps were very small and nobody moved until the very end.

That said, listing all the contenders who very obviously underperformed or crashed out (plus Moreno) doesn't add any weight to an argument.
Yeah, I'm sure all the riders were just taking it easy :rolleyes: They have raced as hard as you can in a GT where most days are a MTF. It's not like the TdF where they are sitting in the middle peloton averaging about 150 watts for most of the stages.

The only surprise name in the top 10 is Dumoulin; everyone else you would have given a decent shot at finishing there beforhand (especially with Froome and Nibali not finishing). That suggests it has been sufficently hard to let the cream rise to the top. The one rider standing out like a sore thumb there is Dumoulin.
 
So you're telling me they haven't been racing conservatively, waiting for as close to the finish line as possible before making a move? Are you serious?

I don't disagree with much of your second paragraph. For some odd reason you seem to think I'm defending Dumoulin as either clean or perfectly normal.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Re:

hrotha said:
So you're telling me they haven't been racing conservatively, waiting for as close to the finish line as possible before making a move? Are you serious?

I don't disagree with much of your second paragraph. For some odd reason you seem to think I'm defending Dumoulin as either clean or perfectly normal.
I get what you're saying, but this seems to be a common refrain now. I think part of the reason for the responses you're seeing is it appears to be excusing the appearance of someone out of the blue?

This same "they took it easy" is what has been trotted out for most GTs in the recent years? No competition or weak competition, weak course, etc.

I don't remember and don't try to, but the message seems to repeat each year. They wait till the last moment, etc. Sure, they might and probably do, but if that's the way the races are raced now, it shouldn't be used as some sort of explanation for a performance, imo.
 
Jun 30, 2014
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Apparently it's not just good for your hair, Tom probably just drinks 2 bottles of Alpecine shampoo instead of coffee before every stage, nothing to see her...
If an evil Russian like Chernetckii, who always was good on a TT-bike (beat Tom in the 2012 U-23 WC ITT) and a good climber (2nd in the Giro della Valle d'Aosta and 4th in the Tour de l'Avenir in 2012, 4th in the 2013 Tour of Austria, winner of the 2013 Tour des Fjords and 7th in the 2013 Vuelta a Burgos) would do the same, we would get a different reaction...
 
Re:

hrotha said:
So you're telling me they haven't been racing conservatively, waiting for as close to the finish line as possible before making a move? Are you serious?

I don't disagree with much of your second paragraph. For some odd reason you seem to think I'm defending Dumoulin as either clean or perfectly normal.
I think it's very difficult to tell. If you look at the race ignoring Dumoulin it seems pretty much how you would expect it would pan out beforehand. Aru gaining significant time in the major mountain stage, Rodriguez winning the uphill sprints, Valverde and Quintana impressing at times but struggling after the TdF, Majka putting in a solid performance but without quite the quality to really threaten for the overall win.

It's impossible to say whether or not it's being raced hard just by looking at when riders attack. For example, at times when Landa has been driving the peloton it's been impossible to attack because of his tempo; the lack of attacks there don't mean it's not being raced hard. I think the quantity of mtf's has just left the riders quite flat. They're going hard, but everyone is exhausted.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
I get what you're saying, but this seems to be a common refrain now. I think part of the reason for the responses you're seeing is it appears to be excusing the appearance of someone out of the blue?

This same "they took it easy" is what has been trotted out for most GTs in the recent years? No competition or weak competition, weak course, etc.

I don't remember and don't try to, but the message seems to repeat each year. They wait till the last moment, etc. Sure, they might and probably do, but if that's the way the races are raced now, it shouldn't be used as some sort of explanation for a performance, imo.
Well yeah, but I've been posting here for 5 years and I think I've been pretty consistent so far, so I should hope people wouldn't put words in my mouth. My point is not even that the general slow pace should allow Dumoulin to be up there with the other contenders; fast pace or not, he's still beating plenty of people. My point is that it's a lot easier to limit your losses when the guys up the road are just holding hands. The fact is he's come consistently around 10th-ish minus break guys in the mountain stages, and under normal circumstances that would have meant losing a lot more time.

It's a bit like what the 2010 Vuelta would have been like if people had spent the whole race waiting for Velits. They didn't, so Velits didn't come close to winning the Vuelta, but his performance was hella suspicious anyway. Same with Dumoulin.
DFA123 said:
It's impossible to say whether or not it's being raced hard just by looking at when riders attack. For example, at times when Landa has been driving the peloton it's been impossible to attack because of his tempo; the lack of attacks there don't mean it's not being raced hard. I think the quantity of mtf's has just left the riders quite flat. They're going hard, but everyone is exhausted.
It's not just a matter of looking at when the attacks come, it's also about seeing how big the group is and how much time they're taking on the breakaway. Like the other day, when Zubeldia was actually putting time on them until the last 4 km or so.
 
Re:

Mayomaniac said:

Apparently it's not just good for your hair, Tom probably just drinks 2 bottles of Alpecine shampoo instead of coffee before every stage, nothing to see her...
If an evil Russian like Chernetckii, who always was good on a TT-bike (beat Tom in the 2012 U-23 WC ITT) and a good climber (2nd in the Giro della Valle d'Aosta and 4th in the Tour de l'Avenir in 2012, 4th in the 2013 Tour of Austria, winner of the 2013 Tour des Fjords and 7th in the 2013 Vuelta a Burgos) would do the same, we would get a different reaction...
It's been a pretty awesome debut year as a sponsor for them. Two monuments, a high profile TdF mountain win and now an unexpected GC rider getting countless hours of coverage. Plus those ridiculous adverts.

Poor old Shimano. They gave all of this up and continued instead to sponsor a car which is most famous for crashing into riders.
 
Re:

hrotha said:
Dear Wiggo said:
I get what you're saying, but this seems to be a common refrain now. I think part of the reason for the responses you're seeing is it appears to be excusing the appearance of someone out of the blue?

This same "they took it easy" is what has been trotted out for most GTs in the recent years? No competition or weak competition, weak course, etc.

I don't remember and don't try to, but the message seems to repeat each year. They wait till the last moment, etc. Sure, they might and probably do, but if that's the way the races are raced now, it shouldn't be used as some sort of explanation for a performance, imo.
Well yeah, but I've been posting here for 5 years and I think I've been pretty consistent so far, so I should hope people wouldn't put words in my mouth. My point is not even that the general slow pace should allow Dumoulin to be up there with the other contenders; fast pace or not, he's still beating plenty of people. My point is that it's a lot easier to limit your losses when the guys up the road are just holding hands. The fact is he's come consistently around 10th-ish minus break guys in the mountain stages, and under normal circumstances that would have meant losing a lot more time.

It's a bit like what the 2010 Vuelta would have been like if people had spent the whole race waiting for Velits. They didn't, so Velits didn't come close to winning the Vuelta, but his performance was hella suspicious anyway. Same with Dumoulin.
DFA123 said:
It's impossible to say whether or not it's being raced hard just by looking at when riders attack. For example, at times when Landa has been driving the peloton it's been impossible to attack because of his tempo; the lack of attacks there don't mean it's not being raced hard. I think the quantity of mtf's has just left the riders quite flat. They're going hard, but everyone is exhausted.
It's not just a matter of looking at when the attacks come, it's also about seeing how big the group is and how much time they're taking on the breakaway. Like the other day, when Zubeldia was actually putting time on them until the last 4 km or so.
Don't you think that is down to course though as much as anything? It looks as though riders have decided that the best way to race is to go moderately hard but saving something for the steep finish, before going all out in the last few minutes. I don't think that is any easier to do that (certainly in terms of day to day recovery) than going on a longer range attack at threshold pace; it's just a different form of racing. The other day, for exampe, they ultimately beat Zubeldia quite easily, so they obviously pushed really hard when the gradients kicked up, and comfortably reeled in the guy riding at threshold.

I think riders look at a finish with gradients of 20%+ in the last km and know that they have to save something back for that. They are still racing as hard as they can, but it's in a different way to they would on 7% climbs in the TdF.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Re:

hrotha said:
Dear Wiggo said:
I get what you're saying, but this seems to be a common refrain now. I think part of the reason for the responses you're seeing is it appears to be excusing the appearance of someone out of the blue?

This same "they took it easy" is what has been trotted out for most GTs in the recent years? No competition or weak competition, weak course, etc.

I don't remember and don't try to, but the message seems to repeat each year. They wait till the last moment, etc. Sure, they might and probably do, but if that's the way the races are raced now, it shouldn't be used as some sort of explanation for a performance, imo.
Well yeah, but I've been posting here for 5 years and I think I've been pretty consistent so far, so I should hope people wouldn't put words in my mouth. My point is not even that the general slow pace should allow Dumoulin to be up there with the other contenders; fast pace or not, he's still beating plenty of people. My point is that it's a lot easier to limit your losses when the guys up the road are just holding hands. The fact is he's come consistently around 10th-ish minus break guys in the mountain stages, and under normal circumstances that would have meant losing a lot more time.

It's a bit like what the 2010 Vuelta would have been like if people had spent the whole race waiting for Velits. They didn't, so Velits didn't come close to winning the Vuelta, but his performance was hella suspicious anyway. Same with Dumoulin.
Is 2010 the last time it would have been true? The hand holding aspect of GT racing started around that time? My memory is woeful, so I do not remember details at all, but the pattern of cruising or riding a consistent tempo sounds very familiar from recent years' GTs. Vuelta is probably the least interesting to me too -- far less castles to ogle ;)
 
Sep 9, 2015
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What I find fascinating is his interviews. He talks like he doesn't have a clue why he is this strong. He looks like he's close to stop believing himself.

Maybe his masseuse is secretly doping this guy, allowing plausible deniability.
 
Jun 10, 2013
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Re:

Dumorain said:
What I find fascinating is his interviews. He talks like he doesn't have a clue why he is this strong. He looks like he's close to stop believing himself.

Maybe his masseuse is secretly doping this guy, allowing plausible deniability.
He just said he's legs still feel fresh. :D
 
Jul 1, 2013
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Re: Re:

the sceptic said:
pastronef said:
hrotha said:
I'm not sure I get his point either. Is it "Imagine how much faster he'd go at Sky", or "Imagine what kind of innuendo we'd be hearing if he was at Sky"?
yep
"imagine the party on twitter if he rode for Sky"
Imagine how many bots would be trolling this thread if he was british
Imagine how many times you'd be pointing out he was British if he was British
 
Sep 29, 2012
8,087
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Re:

Dumorain said:
What I find fascinating is his interviews. He talks like he doesn't have a clue why he is this strong. He looks like he's close to stop believing himself.

Maybe his masseuse is secretly doping this guy, allowing plausible deniability.
Not just him. Drinking buddy Karsten Kroon, team DS (I think, can't find it now)

 
Lots of riders having life-changing experiences at the Vuelta.

Froome's career changed overnight.
Horner won his only GT at age 61.
Cobo...I don't even know what to say here.
Dumoulin climbing with the best...on the cusp of a GT victory.

The Vuelta. It's a magical mystery tour.
 
Jun 30, 2014
5,465
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Re:

Dumorain said:
What I find fascinating is his interviews. He talks like he doesn't have a clue why he is this strong. He looks like he's close to stop believing himself.

Maybe his masseuse is secretly doping this guy, allowing plausible deniability.
LoL, that would be hillarious, but let's face it, if someone is doping someone secretly then it has to be Michelle Cound :D
I know a few track and field guys and swimmers that are really naive and not the sharpest tools in the box, they blindly trust their coach, they probably could dope them secretly, those guys never ask questions and trust them blindly. It really makes you wonder, how many teenagers that compete in sports like swimming or gymnastics really get secretly doped by coaches, apparently that wasn't uncommon in East Germany, so I'd assume that the same thing happened in many other countries.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Just once, I would like to read about a GT performer doing "what's expected", and not having a "surprising" first two weeks.

Anyone who leans on Wiggins as a foundation for performance justification just nailed his doping coffin shut as far as I am concerned.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/tom-dumoulin-bradley-wiggins-showed-me-whats-possible-190234?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social
Dumoulin has just made the statement he is doping. "Wiggins showed him......." = doping. End of.

Now we just need Canc and Tony Martin to get in on the act.......
Like a boss. True detective you are :)
 
Re:

Moose McKnuckles said:
Lots of riders having life-changing experiences at the Vuelta.

Froome's career changed overnight.
Horner won his only GT at age 61.
Cobo...I don't even know what to say here.
Dumoulin climbing with the best...on the cusp of a GT victory.

The Vuelta. It's a magical mystery tour.
I can't believe you failed to mention Wonderboy's rebirth in the 1998 race.
 

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