Dumoulin.

[the sceptic]

“We’re just as surprised as everyone else,” Giant rider Lawson Craddock said. “We came here hoping to win some sprints with John, and Tom was an unknown. He was coming back to redeem himself after crashing out of the Tour de France, and his form was unknown to us, and even to him.”

“When Tom won [on Cumbre del Sol], at dinner that night, he was saying, ‘What did I do? How did I do that?’” Craddock said. “It’s pretty surreal to all of us.”

lol!

 

[doolols]

Re: Re:

you think Dumoulin is doping , even though you thought Wiggins was clean in 2012? Makes a lot of sense. Or not.

Nice research. Damn you, internet!

Mind you, there are differences. Wiggins had a team created around his TdF bid. Completely. Wiggins prepared himself for this one attempt at the TdF. The parcours was perfect. The UK had the Olympics. All the stars were aligned. Wiggins time trialled, and then hid behind his team who dragged him up the climbs.

Compare and contrast. Giant come to the Vuelta to support Degenkolb. All of a sudden, Degenkolb isn't around, and up pops Dumoulin. The team isn't designed around him. There is no team of 5-6 riders forcing their way up climbs, with Wiggo in the pocket, ready to claim the plaudits. Dumoulin is doing this on his own, with no team designed around him.

Some say he's strong because he didn't complete the TdF, but if his crash on stage 3 was bad enough for him to abandon, wouldn't that have a detrimental affect on his ability to race?

THAT is why this is most strange.

 

[doperhopper]

Re: Re:

he's going to win the vuelta isn't he? Closing down attacks by Aru like it ain't no thing.

Yep, and the next 5 or so years will be dominated by 70kg/185cm+ ex TT/Track specialists.

I wonder who is next? Rohan Dennis from BMC? I guess Geraint Thomas has already started his transformation as well.

Martin and Cancellara probably kicking themselves they weren't a few years younger right now.

I really think that Rohan will be the next one, already a decent climber in smaller races (2014 California and a few weeks ago un Colorado) and LRP should bring some Know-how from Sky too help his Aussie mate.

You know, Sky started with these Great Transformations, now everybody is doing it too.

 

[Supimilian]

Comparisons to Wiggins/Sky transformations are dumb. This is only doing what he was expected of some to maybe do next year, this year.
Against a very limited field.
Having a huge team is not always that important, depending on how the mountain stages play out. He has gotten lucky and managed to hold on.
He has looked very human where he was supposed to lose a lot. Not his fault the others have been unable to capitalize.
He would never be in red at this point had the others taken him serious from stage one.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

you think Dumoulin is doping , even though you thought Wiggins was clean in 2012? Makes a lot of sense. Or not.

Nice research. Damn you, internet!

Mind you, there are differences. Wiggins had a team created around his TdF bid. Completely. Wiggins prepared himself for this one attempt at the TdF. The parcours was perfect. The UK had the Olympics. All the stars were aligned. Wiggins time trialled, and then hid behind his team who dragged him up the climbs.

Compare and contrast. Giant come to the Vuelta to support Degenkolb. All of a sudden, Degenkolb isn't around, and up pops Dumoulin. The team isn't designed around him. There is no team of 5-6 riders forcing their way up climbs, with Wiggo in the pocket, ready to claim the plaudits. Dumoulin is doing this on his own, with no team designed around him.

Some say he's strong because he didn't complete the TdF, but if his crash on stage 3 was bad enough for him to abandon, wouldn't that have a detrimental affect on his ability to race?

THAT is why this is most strange.

Wiggins one attempt? Really it was decided only one attempt? When did he decide that? Before he crashed in 2011 or after he won in 2012 and then bombed at Giro 2013? Was 2009 a dream? What about the times he rode before that when he was mixing it with the Grupetto?

I dont remember Contador having a team when he beat Armstrong of the same team, Contador also blew away Basso's diesel Liquigas team at Il Giro on his own. Not having a strong team means little if you are stronger than everyone else. Dumoulin looks very comfortable in the 3rd week of La Vuelta. In fact he looks like he could do another 3 weeks

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Comparisons to Wiggins/Sky transformations are dumb. This is only doing what he was expected of some to maybe do next year, this year.
Against a very limited field.
Having a huge team is not always that important, depending on how the mountain stages play out. He has gotten lucky and managed to hold on.
He has looked very human where he was supposed to lose a lot. Not his fault the others have been unable to capitalize.
He would never be in red at this point had the others taken him serious from stage one.

Sorry but in GTs riders race their hardest. Whether others took Dumoulin serious from stage one or not is moot. He is as strong if not stronger on the stages that counted. I dont think Purito said oh let Dumoulin win some early stages with Chavez because he was feeling charitable. It doesn't work like that. I dont think Piti for one millisecond would gift someone a win.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

you think Dumoulin is doping , even though you thought Wiggins was clean in 2012? Makes a lot of sense. Or not.

Nice research. Damn you, internet!

Mind you, there are differences. Wiggins had a team created around his TdF bid. Completely. Wiggins prepared himself for this one attempt at the TdF. The parcours was perfect. The UK had the Olympics. All the stars were aligned. Wiggins time trialled, and then hid behind his team who dragged him up the climbs.

Compare and contrast. Giant come to the Vuelta to support Degenkolb. All of a sudden, Degenkolb isn't around, and up pops Dumoulin. The team isn't designed around him. There is no team of 5-6 riders forcing their way up climbs, with Wiggo in the pocket, ready to claim the plaudits. Dumoulin is doing this on his own, with no team designed around him.

Some say he's strong because he didn't complete the TdF, but if his crash on stage 3 was bad enough for him to abandon, wouldn't that have a detrimental affect on his ability to race?

THAT is why this is most strange.

You do know that Wigans had a serious shot at the Tour in '09-'11 don't you? And on paper at least, the Garmin '09 team was almost as strong as Sky in 2012, with guys like Vandevelde, Hesjedal, Zabriskie and Millar.

Wigans' form leading into the 2011 Tour was almost as ominous as 2012, had he not crashed out in the massacre at Cap Frehel, he would have been top 5 absolute minimum with the way he was riding.

 

[doolols]

Re: Re:

Sorry but in GTs riders race their hardest. Whether others took Dumoulin serious from stage one or not is moot. He is as strong if not stronger on the stages that counted. I dont think Purito said oh let Dumoulin win some early stages with Chavez because he was feeling charitable. It doesn't work like that. I dont think Piti for one millisecond would gift someone a win.

Well, of course. Every cyclist wants to win. To suggest that people "underestimated" Dumoulin at the start is ridiculous. You race against whoever is on the road in front of you. Everyone knew he was a TT-er, so knew that he'd do well on the ITT.

I was merely defending my stance on Wiggins. He wasn't a strong mountain climber (despite his weight loss), and in 2012 the long TTs played into his hands. To compare Wiggins to Dumoulin is totally false. Maybe as individual riders, but as Wiggins (TdF2012) and Dumoulin (Vuelta2015)? Absolutely chalk and cheese.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

he's going to win the vuelta isn't he? Closing down attacks by Aru like it ain't no thing.

Yep, and the next 5 or so years will be dominated by 70kg/185cm+ ex TT/Track specialists.

I wonder who is next? Rohan Dennis from BMC? I guess Geraint Thomas has already started his transformation as well.

Martin and Cancellara probably kicking themselves they weren't a few years younger right now.

I really think that Rohan will be the next one, already a decent climber in smaller races (2014 California and a few weeks ago un Colorado) and LRP should bring some Know-how from Sky too help his Aussie mate.

Yep, at least Dennis has the early career results to make it plausible, unlike some other improvements made over the years...

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

you think Dumoulin is doping , even though you thought Wiggins was clean in 2012? Makes a lot of sense. Or not.

Mind you, there are differences. Wiggins had a team created around his TdF bid. Completely. Wiggins prepared himself for this one attempt at the TdF. The parcours was perfect. The UK had the Olympics. All the stars were aligned. Wiggins time trialled, and then hid behind his team who dragged him up the climbs.

Compare and contrast. Giant come to the Vuelta to support Degenkolb. All of a sudden, Degenkolb isn't around, and up pops Dumoulin. The team isn't designed around him. There is no team of 5-6 riders forcing their way up climbs, with Wiggo in the pocket, ready to claim the plaudits. Dumoulin is doing this on his own, with no team designed around him.
.

Ummmmmmm.
You do realize that your second paragraph basically perfectly describes Wiggins 2009 performance?

Lets just change the names a little

Compare and contrast. Garmin come to the Tour to support CVV. All of a sudden, CVV (doper btw) isn't around, and up pops Wiggins. The team isn't designed around him. There is no team of 5-6 riders forcing their way up climbs, ready to claim the plaudits. Wiggins is doing this on his own, with no team designed around him.

So do tell us again why Wiggins wasn't doping but TD is.

I do aknowledge though there are differences though. Like

1) Wiggins did it at the Tour - not the Vuelta
2) Wiggins was 29 years old, not a still maturing 24 year old.
3) Wiggins had done a full Giro d'Italia a month earlier, which is literally, the worst preparation possible for doing well at the Tour as Sky themselves admit.
4) Wiggins was climbing on a totally nother level to what TD is producing right now.

BTW, Dumoulin will eventually have his team too obviously. Just like Wiggins eventually did.
Will that mean he is suddenly clean?


Secondly. Seriously, wtf does this mean -

Wiggins prepared himself for this one attempt at the TdF.

How would that explain anything????

Is "preparing for a gt" now another one of these super secret marginal gains that only Sky have access to?

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

...

You know, Sky started with these Great Transformations, now everybody is doing it too.

You are getting really close to the target.

Truth is, Dumoulin's marginal gains are even more marginal than Sky. In the race for gaining marginally for racing, he who is most marginal wins!



Dave.

 

[bebellion2]

Re:

Tom Dumoulin, the patron of Vuelta. Aru looked like a restless child carefully supervised by his uncle while on a walk in the park.

Absolutely, but it was like that in the TT too. It was funny to watch all these mountain goats suffering on the TT bikes, and then the camera switched to Dumoulin, wow. He looked like the only pro in that field.

 

[Jagartrott]

Weights of the riders currently in the top-10 (according to Wikipedia):
Meintjes 59 kg
Nieve 62 kg
Moreno 59 kg
Chavez 54 kg
Valverde 62 kg
Quintana 58 kg
Majka 62 kg
Purito 57 kg
Aru 61.5 kg
Dumoulin 71 kg

 

[Dumorain]

Giant Alpecin confirmed that Dumoulin's weight is 70.

So Dumoulin 'only' needs 48 watts more than Aru to drag himzelf up a hill and a sad 78 watts to follow Rodriguez.

Nothing to see here, please move along.

 

[del1962]

Re:

Weights of the riders currently in the top-10 (according to Wikipedia):
Meintjes 59 kg
Nieve 62 kg
Moreno 59 kg
Chavez 54 kg
Valverde 62 kg
Quintana 58 kg
Majka 62 kg
Purito 57 kg
Aru 61.5 kg
Dumoulin 71 kg

Weights without heights is meaningless though

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Weights of the riders currently in the top-10 (according to Wikipedia):
Meintjes 59 kg
Nieve 62 kg
Moreno 59 kg
Chavez 54 kg
Valverde 62 kg
Quintana 58 kg
Majka 62 kg
Purito 57 kg
Aru 61.5 kg
Dumoulin 71 kg

Weights without heights is meaningless though

No it's not.

Gravity couldn't care less how tall you are. And that's being polite.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Weights of the riders currently in the top-10 (according to Wikipedia):
Meintjes 59 kg
Nieve 62 kg
Moreno 59 kg
Chavez 54 kg
Valverde 62 kg
Quintana 58 kg
Majka 62 kg
Purito 57 kg
Aru 61.5 kg
Dumoulin 71 kg

Weights without heights is meaningless though

No it's not.

Gravity couldn't care less how tall you are. And that's being polite.

That would only be the case if muscle of all size generated the same amount of power.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re: Re:

That would only be the case if muscle of all size generated the same amount of power.

You're talking about something different.
If you're heavier, you will have to produce more power on climbs. The steeper the climbs, the higher the extra Watts you will have to produce - that's what is relevant.

 

[Supimilian]

Re: Re:

Well, of course. Every cyclist wants to win. To suggest that people "underestimated" Dumoulin at the start is ridiculous. You race against whoever is on the road in front of you. Everyone knew he was a TT-er, so knew that he'd do well on the ITT.

I'm sure Andreas Klöden agrees with you.
Sure, it's totally inconceivable that they might have been pacing themselves to bigger gaps when they dropped him in the early mountains had they known he would be a real threat.

If you remove the names from all GT top 3 rides in the last 5 or so years this ride by Dumoulin would be close to the most believable seen in isolation. Only reason he didn't win the TdS was that other riders rode suspiciously good (for them) in the final TT.
And this is supposed to be up there with Wiggins and Froomes transformations? Ridiculous.

 

[Dumorain]

Facts tell me this is a very very suspicious performance.

I, however, am only about 90% sure he's doping.

What's holding me back is his attitude and the rest of the team. They simply look stunned (TD included) by what happens. Craddock seems honestly surprised. So was his DS Engels. And when he was asked by a dutch newspaper about doping suspicions he responded that he could absolutely understand them because there was no way he expected this from himself. He would've wondered as well if it had been someone else.

Also, the rest of the team is quite disappointing this vuelta so it definitely isn't a team-wide programme the way Astana seems to handle things.

It's a mystery.

 

[harryh]

I really hope Tom wins this Vuelta. Who else would be better winner than him? He's young, looking good on and off cycle etc.

 

[Rollthedice]

Facts tell me this is a very very suspicious performance.

I, however, am only about 90% sure he's doping.

What's holding me back is his attitude and the rest of the team. They simply look stunned (TD included) by what happens. Craddock seems honestly surprised. So was his DS Engels. And when he was asked by a dutch newspaper about doping suspicions he responded that he could absolutely understand them because there was no way he expected this from himself. He would've wondered as well if it had been someone else.

Also, the rest of the team is quite disappointing this vuelta so it definitely isn't a team-wide programme the way Astana seems to handle things.

It's a mystery.

He was struck by lightning three days before the Vuelta while going home after a few beers with Engels. They were planning the last details of a wonderful vacation in Spain. Of course, Tom doesn't remember a thing but after that evening, his life will never be the same.

 

[doperhopper]

Giant Alpecin confirmed that Dumoulin's weight is 70.

So Dumoulin 'only' needs 48 watts more than Aru to drag himzelf up a hill and a sad 78 watts to follow Rodriguez.

Nothing to see here, please move along.

now imagine next year when he comes froomized to the bones while keeping or even increasing the power

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Haters, you just dont like the Dutch!

Look, Dumoulin winning the Vuelta is ridiculous but I comfort myself with the fact he doesnt state he was before focussing on the track or having a bad case of badzillah.

And the opposition is weak of course, but I mentioned that before didnt I?

Jan, Joop and now Tom, for the Dutch: at least it is not the Three J's

 

[proffate]

The team must have access to his power files (more complete and accurate than just estimates). Is their surprise because Dumoulin is setting all sorts of PRs or is the surprise that his previously known abilities are enough to put him in red?