Dumoulin.

[Benotti69]

Dumoulin, a TTer, climbed with the likes of Piti, Quintana, Froome, Aru etc and only had 1 bad day(losing only 4 mins not 20 or 30) and people think he is clean. HAHAHA!!!!

 

[Merckx index]

Actually, on his “bad” day, Dumoulin finished with Valverde, who was dropped before Dumoulin was. I don’t hear any arguments that Valverde’s performance makes it more likely he’s clean.

If Dumoulin had come into this GT as a second-tier climber, not the best, but considered good enough to compete for a top 10, possibly top 5, what he did today would be considered completely unremarkable. He lost 3+ minutes to the best climbers on a fairly tough mountain stage, and if he’d had a decent team surrounding him, it would have been a lot less.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

1) Dopers can still have bad days. Dopers can still get tired. Dopers can still get dropped. Dopers can still be anything from bad to mediocre to great riders.
2) A bad performance doesn't erase any previous good performances.

For sure. Worth sticky-ing to the top of any individual's "______ doping" thread.

The bold is also important to reiterate. I'd bet there are just as many dopers in the top 20 of today's race as in the bottom 40.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

Actually, on his “bad” day, Dumoulin finished with Valverde, who was dropped before Dumoulin was. I don’t hear any arguments that Valverde’s performance makes it more likely he’s clean.

If Dumoulin had come into this GT as a second-tier climber, not the best, but considered good enough to compete for a top 10, possibly top 5, what he did today would be considered completely unremarkable. He lost 3+ minutes to the best climbers on a fairly tough mountain stage, and if he’d had a decent team surrounding him, it would have been a lot less.

That is becasue most people would recognise Valverde has been nowhere top form in this Vuelta nor has Quintana for that matter. How many people finished with Valverde today? Hardly the Vuelta contender Valverde as is the norm.

How many of the MTFs this year were the multi-col stage so typical on the other GTs, today and the stage to Andorra. Guess which two stages Dumoulin lost the most time. A few proper Mountain stages earlier in the race may have seen Dumoulin slide out of contention much earlier instead of a litany of one punch hill-finishes. Thats not to say he didn't punch above his normal level, he most definitely did and that is 100% suspicious but I also think a set of factors worked in his favour. I personally don't see him really challenging for a GT in the future.

 

[roundabout]

People who were with Dumoulin at the start of Morcuera and finished ahead of him

Majka, Quintana, Chaves, Rodriguez, Aru, Landa, De Clercq, Nieve

That's it. Just 8 of them. And that was Dumoulin having a bad day.

And now this stage is probably going to be used as an argument that Dumoulin is "clean".

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

People who were with Dumoulin at the start of Morcuera and finished ahead of him

Majka, Quintana, Chaves, Rodriguez, Aru, Landa, De Clercq, Nieve

That's it. Just 8 of them. And that was Dumoulin having a bad day.

And now this stage is probably going to be used as an argument that Dumoulin is "clean".

Has been used. Already. Coz he cracked and that's what clean guys do. Apparently.

Ever heard of Floyd Landis?

 

[Bronstein]

Cleans - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnKhhfX5tEQ.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

People who were with Dumoulin at the start of Morcuera and finished ahead of him

Majka, Quintana, Chaves, Rodriguez, Aru, Landa, De Clercq, Nieve

That's it. Just 8 of them. And that was Dumoulin having a bad day.

And now this stage is probably going to be used as an argument that Dumoulin is "clean".

Finishing alongside Fabrice Jeandebosz, Louis Meintjes, Valerio Conti or Yukiya Arashiro hardly screams amazing performance either.

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

People who were with Dumoulin at the start of Morcuera and finished ahead of him

Majka, Quintana, Chaves, Rodriguez, Aru, Landa, De Clercq, Nieve

That's it. Just 8 of them. And that was Dumoulin having a bad day.

And now this stage is probably going to be used as an argument that Dumoulin is "clean".

Finishing alongside Fabrice Jeandebosz, Louis Meintjes, Valerio Conti or Yukiya Arashiro hardly screams amazing performance either.

Who wrote anything about an amazing performance? And what Conti and Arashiro who were circa 10 minutes ahead of Dumoulin at 60km to go have got to do with the quality of his performance anyway?

 

[Benotti69]

33. IPOZZOVIVO Domenico
34. SCHLECK Frank
35. DUMOULIN Tom
36. MEINTJES Louis
37. JEANDESBOZ Fabrice
38. VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro
39. CARDOSO MARTINS André Fernando S.
40. MORENO FERNANDEZ Daniel
41. POLJANSKI Pawel
42. CONTI Valerio

ooh what a fine bunch of squeaky clean guys all finishing together after 3 hard weeks of racing............not.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

People who were with Dumoulin at the start of Morcuera and finished ahead of him

Majka, Quintana, Chaves, Rodriguez, Aru, Landa, De Clercq, Nieve

That's it. Just 8 of them. And that was Dumoulin having a bad day.

And now this stage is probably going to be used as an argument that Dumoulin is "clean".

Finishing alongside Fabrice Jeandebosz, Louis Meintjes, Valerio Conti or Yukiya Arashiro hardly screams amazing performance either.

Who wrote anything about an amazing performance? And what Conti and Arashiro who were circa 10 minutes ahead of Dumoulin at 60km to go have got to do with the quality of his performance anyway?

Well you seem to think only 8 riders gaining time on him was amazing and I am merely pointing out that the quality of rider finishing behind him was hardly amazing either. Hardly riders you would be surprised to see Dumoulin finish with/in front off normally.

I don't think Dumoulin had a bad day, just a rider that was already on the limit of his abilites and was found out on one of the few real mountain stages in this Vuelta. Would have happened earlier if there had bee a few more true mountain stages.

 

["Jeff"]

Re:

33. IPOZZOVIVO Domenico
34. SCHLECK Frank
35. DUMOULIN Tom
36. MEINTJES Louis
37. JEANDESBOZ Fabrice
38. VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro
39. CARDOSO MARTINS André Fernando S.
40. MORENO FERNANDEZ Daniel
41. POLJANSKI Pawel
42. CONTI Valerio

ooh what a fine bunch of squeaky clean guys all finishing together after 3 hard weeks of racing............not.

So essentially the whole peloton is doped, with exception of those who dont stand out.

Why does this sub forum even exist.

I cant imagine it was ever created to be like this.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":2cv6kk26]So essentially the whole peloton is doped, with exception of those who dont stand out.

Why does this sport even exist.

I cant imagine it was ever created to be like this.[/quote]

Fixed.

.....

I'm not as cynical as Benotti69, but yeah, a lot of people dope.

 

[hrotha]

Roundabout raises a good point. If you go by placings among the contenders, Dumoulin's performance was on par with that on previous mountain stages.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

People who were with Dumoulin at the start of Morcuera and finished ahead of him

Majka, Quintana, Chaves, Rodriguez, Aru, Landa, De Clercq, Nieve

That's it. Just 8 of them. And that was Dumoulin having a bad day.

And now this stage is probably going to be used as an argument that Dumoulin is "clean".

Has been used. Already. Coz he cracked and that's what clean guys do. Apparently.

Ever heard of Floyd Landis?

Really? Wow, even guys like Contador, Armstrong, Ullrich and Pantani have had days where they cracked

Does this mean they're cleanz too now?

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

People who were with Dumoulin at the start of Morcuera and finished ahead of him

Majka, Quintana, Chaves, Rodriguez, Aru, Landa, De Clercq, Nieve

That's it. Just 8 of them. And that was Dumoulin having a bad day.

And now this stage is probably going to be used as an argument that Dumoulin is "clean".

Has been used. Already. Coz he cracked and that's what clean guys do. Apparently.

Ever heard of Floyd Landis?

Really? Wow, even guys like Contador, Armstrong, Ullrich and Pantani have had days where they cracked

Does this mean they're cleanz too now?

Still don't see the comparison with Dumoulin. Those guys all had unexpected bad days whilst going well and mostly recovered to their previous form afterward. Dumoulin on the other has been losing time on MTFs and everyone had been waiting on him to crack, that he didn't for so long is the suspicious bit but it did happen. As others have pointed out, he still was about his level for this Vuelta in terms of placing, just that he was found out more on a tougher Mountain stage. Don't think anyone was really expecting those other guys to suddenly have an off day when they did.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

How bad was his bad day anyway? He got back to within 10 seconds when Zeits and Lulu dropped back and put the hammer down. Only losing 30 seconds to Mike Snow who left him 'for dead' on the last climb? This was no bonk, not at all. He got played by Astana and the weakness of his own team [tactics].

 

[jens_attacks]

peepz, he lost 15 sec at the top of morcuera, that was it. dropped by the better climbers. in line with all the other mountain finishes. that is very very far from cracking. it wasn't the case at all

his bad luck was mikel landa's attack . when he was let isolated. if he would have stayed with purito, he would have won this vuelta i think. because katusha would have chased full gas to catch majka and quintana.

lesson learned, leave this team. he's grand tour's finest material.

 

[jens_attacks]

Re: Re:

People who were with Dumoulin at the start of Morcuera and finished ahead of him

Majka, Quintana, Chaves, Rodriguez, Aru, Landa, De Clercq, Nieve

That's it. Just 8 of them. And that was Dumoulin having a bad day.

And now this stage is probably going to be used as an argument that Dumoulin is "clean".

Has been used. Already. Coz he cracked and that's what clean guys do. Apparently.

Ever heard of Floyd Landis?

if i read once again that he cracked , i will crack myself mentally

guys, of course that if you chase on your own from morcuera's descent up to cotos finish against a 3 amazing rouleurs (vorganov,zeits and lulu), you will lose huge chunk of time. see menchov in 2005 the same
that's not cracking, that's being isolated.

15 freaking seconds at the top. he shouldn't have drink on the descent in my opninion, he should have chased full gas, all or nothing.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

peepz, he lost 15 sec at the top of morcuera, that was it. dropped by the better climbers. in line with all the other mountain finishes. that is very very far from cracking. it wasn't the case at all

his bad luck was mikel landa's attack . when he was let isolated. if he would have stayed with purito, he would have won this vuelta i think. because katusha would have chased full gas to catch majka and quintana.

lesson learned, leave this team. he's grand tour's finest material.

Excellent point.

Now, having read the pros and cons, I'm still on the fence here: how he turned into a GC rider and almost won it reminds me of a De Las Cuevas '94 type of boost in performance, not normal. On the other hand, there's a case to be made that the TdF guys were nowhere near their max, that conservative tactics led to small gaps, allowing Dumoulin to hang in there. I might add that at this time I don't consider Aru to be all that good: after all, he lost to an average Contador at the Giro. When you see that Nieve was in the mix, seriously, how good was the field?

 

[EarnstMorrissey]

Re: Re:

33. IPOZZOVIVO Domenico
34. SCHLECK Frank
35. DUMOULIN Tom
36. MEINTJES Louis
37. JEANDESBOZ Fabrice
38. VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro
39. CARDOSO MARTINS André Fernando S.
40. MORENO FERNANDEZ Daniel
41. POLJANSKI Pawel
42. CONTI Valerio

ooh what a fine bunch of squeaky clean guys all finishing together after 3 hard weeks of racing............not.

So essentially the whole peloton is doped, with exception of those who dont stand out.

Why does this sub forum even exist.

I cant imagine it was ever created to be like this.[/quote]

Half of those guys are known dopers the other half suspected dopers. Just because you didn't dope on a given day doesn't mean you don't dope. The whole peleton is doped. The majority of them cheated to get where they are and they shouldn't be excused because they took it easy at the end of a 3 week tour. Dumoulin probably didn't think he was going to be in contention past the last time trial, so didn't prepare for beyond then.

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

33. IPOZZOVIVO Domenico
34. SCHLECK Frank
35. DUMOULIN Tom
36. MEINTJES Louis
37. JEANDESBOZ Fabrice
38. VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro
39. CARDOSO MARTINS André Fernando S.
40. MORENO FERNANDEZ Daniel
41. POLJANSKI Pawel
42. CONTI Valerio

ooh what a fine bunch of squeaky clean guys all finishing together after 3 hard weeks of racing............not.

So essentially the whole peloton is doped, with exception of those who dont stand out.

Why does this sub forum even exist.

I cant imagine it was ever created to be like this.

Half of those guys are known dopers the other half suspected dopers. Just because you didn't dope on a given day doesn't mean you don't dope. The whole peleton is doped. The majority of them cheated to get where they are and they shouldn't be excused because they took it easy at the end of a 3 week tour. Dumoulin probably didn't think he was going to be in contention past the last time trial, so didn't prepare for beyond then.[/quote]Your opinion is not a fact that half of those guys are known dopers.

If you think the whole peloton is doped, that's fine with me, but than this is an useless section for you.

 

[BigMac]

Known and suspected dopers by whom? Sometimes hyperbole doesn't really work.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

33. IPOZZOVIVO Domenico
34. SCHLECK Frank
35. DUMOULIN Tom
36. MEINTJES Louis
37. JEANDESBOZ Fabrice
38. VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro
39. CARDOSO MARTINS André Fernando S.
40. MORENO FERNANDEZ Daniel
41. POLJANSKI Pawel
42. CONTI Valerio

ooh what a fine bunch of squeaky clean guys all finishing together after 3 hard weeks of racing............not.

[quote=""Jeff"":3mcbyijp]
So essentially the whole peloton is doped, with exception of those who dont stand out.[/quote][/quote]


Welcome to professional cycling and yes the whole peloton dopes. Why would teams hire guys who wont dope when there are loads who will? There are no exceptions, IMO.

[quote=""Jeff"":3mcbyijp]
Why does this sub forum even exist. [/quote]

Not compulsory to read teh clinic never mind post in it. Most of those who do, understand that sport is riddled with doping. Those who dont post or read, dont give a fig. Then there are those who for some reason want to believe that there are 'good' guys out there training harder than the dopers (impossible) and beating them because good always triumphs over bad. Aint that right Bjarne, Eddie, Bernard, Fausto, Miguel............


[quote=""Jeff"":3mcbyijp]

I cant imagine it was ever created to be like this.[/quote]

So only some viewpoints can be held, those that you agree with? Or can posters voice their opinions?

I am all for free speech, even those who blindly wear the fandom of nationalism firmly on their sleeves and condemn those who wont agree.....

But hey it is only sport, albeit a dirty one.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

33. IPOZZOVIVO Domenico
34. SCHLECK Frank
35. DUMOULIN Tom
36. MEINTJES Louis
37. JEANDESBOZ Fabrice
38. VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro
39. CARDOSO MARTINS André Fernando S.
40. MORENO FERNANDEZ Daniel
41. POLJANSKI Pawel
42. CONTI Valerio

ooh what a fine bunch of squeaky clean guys all finishing together after 3 hard weeks of racing............not.

So essentially the whole peloton is doped, with exception of those who dont stand out.

Why does this sub forum even exist.

I cant imagine it was ever created to be like this.

Half of those guys are known dopers the other half suspected dopers. Just because you didn't dope on a given day doesn't mean you don't dope. The whole peleton is doped. The majority of them cheated to get where they are and they shouldn't be excused because they took it easy at the end of a 3 week tour. Dumoulin probably didn't think he was going to be in contention past the last time trial, so didn't prepare for beyond then.[/quote]Your opinion is not a fact that half of those guys are known dopers.

If you think the whole peloton is doped, that's fine with me, but than this is an useless section for you.[/quote]

Why would this a be a useless section? It is open to whomever chooses to post here and doesn't break forum rules.

There are enough posters who feel that only some, only the top guys on teams, only the GT A Teams, etc dope and not the whole peloton.

This means there is plenty of scope for discussion. This is not a back slapping forum.