Dumoulin.

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Vuelta is juice paradise, Cobo, Horner, and now this. The race is becoming laughable.

At least Cobo and Horner are climbers. Dumoulin is Indurain all over again but with better dope.

Even full doped-up Astana team (we all know what they did in the rest day) couldn't blow him up on one of the hardest GT stages ever.

Cobo and Horner also dominated the mountain stages and dropped the whole peloton by minutes. Dumoulin just TT'd up a mountain and finished 9th. I love how people exaggerate everything by the power of 10.

Not sure I get the "he ttd up a mountain" explanation for when tter learns to climb.

It seems to me like a false attempt to make the ascent seem as something that suits dumoulins (and others before him) strengths, by throwing out a word that doesn't belong.

The mountain had nothing to do with tting, nor the stage. If you mean to say he paced himself, well they all did that. And all always do that. It's how mountains are ridden.

this.
Sadly you get the same argument from many live commentators. Heard/read it a few times already wrt Dumoulin.

Cf. Cancellara 'tt-ing' up the Muur leaving Boonen for dead in 2010.
Whether that was due to rampant doping or a motor (or both), fact is his tt-qualities had little to do with it, imo. Yet practically all commentators I listened to gave that as the reason he was able to leave Boonen for dead on a 20% climb.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Apparently Domoulin lost time for being Froome like ie inept

"Because I had difficulties closing my jacket, I lost some positions, which turned out to be very costly afterwards because the group split in the descent. I had to chase and wasted energy with that, which is too bad."

http://cyclingquotes.com/news/optimistic_dumoulin_regrets_rainjacket_mistake/

 

[hrotha]

He had to chase? Looked to me like he was just following the AG2R guys at all times.

 

[l.Harm]

At some point Pozzo, Nieve and Chaves were attacking from that group and Dumoulin had to pace himself, took a while before he got back to the Purito/Valverde/Aru group.

 

["Jeff"]

Re:

Vuelta is juice paradise, Cobo, Horner, and now this. The race is becoming laughable.

Obviously there has been very suspicious winners like Horner and Cobo.

Some take this race very seriously because they are Spanish or were injured for most of the season. Than you have riders who just dont have any extra fuel left but most just dont care. Lets be honest.

The Vuelta is just what it is. Exciting at times but not really competitive.

 

[vedrafjord]

No, that implies that climbing speeds would be slower than the Tour but in years gone by they haven't. If the standard truly is lower then that would seem to imply more doping to me.

 

[vedrafjord]

Btw ammattipyöräily is saying Aru was between 5.7 and 5.8 on the last climb yesterday, which wouldn't be that suspicious for a monoclimb stage, but is pretty fast considering what came before it.

 

[classicomano]

Re: Re:

Not sure I get the "he ttd up a mountain" explanation for when tter learns to climb.

It seems to me like a false attempt to make the ascent seem as something that suits dumoulins (and others before him) strengths, by throwing out a word that doesn't belong.

The mountain had nothing to do with tting, nor the stage. If you mean to say he paced himself, well they all did that. And all always do that. It's how mountains are ridden.

He rode to his strengths, keeping his own rhythym and not following any attacks, its exactly like how he rode up the Rettenbachferner when he dropped very early on the climb then started sweeping up all the riders one by one. Thats his style. Whatever you wanna call it.

 

[hrotha]

And hey, if he somehow put out 6,50 W/kg it would be alright as long as he did it at a steady rhythm.

 

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

Not sure I get the "he ttd up a mountain" explanation for when tter learns to climb.

It seems to me like a false attempt to make the ascent seem as something that suits dumoulins (and others before him) strengths, by throwing out a word that doesn't belong.

The mountain had nothing to do with tting, nor the stage. If you mean to say he paced himself, well they all did that. And all always do that. It's how mountains are ridden.

He rode to his strengths, keeping his own rhythym and not following any attacks, its exactly like how he rode up the Rettenbachferner when he dropped very early on the climb then started sweeping up all the riders one by one. Thats his style. Whatever you wanna call it.

And Verbier, and Saas-Fee with Tony Martin, and I'd bet the farm on some other climb I'm not remembering right now.

 

[classicomano]

Re:

And hey, if he somehow put out 6,50 W/kg it would be alright as long as he did it at a steady rhythm.

Well I wouldnt go that far, but I respect your opinion.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Not sure I get the "he ttd up a mountain" explanation for when tter learns to climb.

It seems to me like a false attempt to make the ascent seem as something that suits dumoulins (and others before him) strengths, by throwing out a word that doesn't belong.

The mountain had nothing to do with tting, nor the stage. If you mean to say he paced himself, well they all did that. And all always do that. It's how mountains are ridden.

He rode to his strengths, keeping his own rhythym and not following any attacks, its exactly like how he rode up the Rettenbachferner when he dropped very early on the climb then started sweeping up all the riders one by one. Thats his style. Whatever you wanna call it.

No its everyone's style. Thats how everyone rides mountains. Every mountain rider is capable of that. Unless tactics come into play and its more beneficial for them to save energy and ride slower in a group.

Please don't pretend like keeping a steady rhythm is some great advantage TD has, or some strength of his no other climber has.

I heard exactly the same crap with Wiggins 3 years ago. Oh he tts up the mountains while all those idiot Spanish riders attack and waste energy and then he beats them woooo.
This isn't obviously anywhere near as ridiculous a performance but the argument is the same and very fanboyish in my opinion.

 

[BigMac]

Want it or not, the guys who were dropped did attack and did not keep a steady pace. Every mountain rider may be capable of that - which I don't agree with -, but not everyone does it. Valverde and Quintana certainly didn't. It wasn't just keeping a steady rhythm, it's doing it for the entire climb. He didn't went on the attack whereas others did, he mostly didn't drop anyone, others dropped themselves. Not everyone can TT up a mountain, keeping an even pace is something most climbers do not - a climber's uphill effort is (mostly) comprised of accelarations, slower stretches, and other faster moments. Seldom is it steady.

 

[classicomano]

Re: Re:

No its everyone's style. Thats how everyone rides mountains. Every mountain rider is capable of that. Unless tactics come into play and its more beneficial for them to save energy and ride slower in a group.

Please don't pretend like keeping a steady rhythm is some great advantage TD has, or some strength of his no other climber has.

I heard exactly the same crap with Wiggins 3 years ago. Oh he tts up the mountains while all those idiot Spanish riders attack and waste energy and then he beats them woooo.
This isn't obviously anywhere near as ridiculous a performance but the argument is the same and very fanboyish in my opinion.

Im not saying any of that, im just saying that thats how Dumoulin climbs, keeping his own steady rhythm, not responding to attacks and blowing up, but just motoring up the climb in his own pace, thats how he gets the best results.

 

[Escarabajo]

A while back there was a discussion about the differences in power between going at steady rhythm and accelerating and decelerating. Well, the energy equation pretty much has the terms but most of the times it is ignored because cannot be measured accurately. But if you make an attempt to take it into account by making some assumptions the value is not that big.

So if don't accelerate at all is zero. If you do it 10 times, but not starting from rest unless it is a very steep climb then it could amount to 5 watts. Not sure if it ever get to 10 watts. The experiment would have to be done with a power meter.

So in conclusion you still need either the power in your system whether is drugs or natural.

 

[lllludo]

Verbier, Saas-Fee, Rettenbachferner etc... OK he did great but that was 1) one climb stages or less demanding stages (variation <3000m) on nice swiss roads compared to yesterday 5 climbs+5000m 2) lower power outputs than what he delivered yesterday
So also not the same Dumoulin that faded in the 2014 Crit. International with yellow on his shoulders on a difficult Ospedale stage
Unlike Dumoulin his fellow "rouleurs with climber habilities" like Martin, Chavanel, Jungels, Castroviejo, Dennis have always lost big minutes on GT hard mountain stages. The only similar guy I can think about is : Geraint Thomas (currently metamorphosing into a mountain goat)
It's not Miguel Indurain v2, not Tom Dumoulin anymore, it's Geraint Dumoulin

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

Not sure I get the "he ttd up a mountain" explanation for when tter learns to climb.

It seems to me like a false attempt to make the ascent seem as something that suits dumoulins (and others before him) strengths, by throwing out a word that doesn't belong.

The mountain had nothing to do with tting, nor the stage. If you mean to say he paced himself, well they all did that. And all always do that. It's how mountains are ridden.

He rode to his strengths, keeping his own rhythym and not following any attacks, its exactly like how he rode up the Rettenbachferner when he dropped very early on the climb then started sweeping up all the riders one by one. Thats his style. Whatever you wanna call it.

No its everyone's style. Thats how everyone rides mountains. Every mountain rider is capable of that. Unless tactics come into play and its more beneficial for them to save energy and ride slower in a group.

Please don't pretend like keeping a steady rhythm is some great advantage TD has, or some strength of his no other climber has.

I heard exactly the same crap with Wiggins 3 years ago. Oh he tts up the mountains while all those idiot Spanish riders attack and waste energy and then he beats them woooo.
This isn't obviously anywhere near as ridiculous a performance but the argument is the same and very fanboyish in my opinion.

Like others have said; Everybody is capable of it, but most dont do it. It's not an advantage or whatever, just something we all notice from TD by watching television. For him, this is the best tactic for a good result. Doped or not, its not something to get totally crazy about and call him a fanboy.

 

[No_Balls]

Re:

Dumoulin just finished 9th in a mountain stage. ITS INDURAIN ALL OVER AGAIN!

I dont know if you are trying to be sarcastic or not but Indurain used to just limit his losses in the mountains. But what limitations it was since he often was 15-20 kgs heavier then the rest of the juiced to the eyeballs climbers he faced. Sometimes it was just tactics because he at times showed he could smoke even the lighter guys on climbs like La Plagne, Alpe d´Huez, Mortirolo and Hautacam. Indurain was a chemical experiment turned alien. Lets wait with the comparisons when Dumoulin actually shows something similar.

 

[The Principal Sheep]

Re: Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":2eh739us]Like others have said; Everybody is capable of it, but most dont do it. It's not an advantage or whatever, just something we all notice from TD by watching television. For him, this is the best tactic for a good result. Doped or not, its not something to get totally crazy about and call him a fanboy.[/quote]

But most do do it, look at the majority of riders as they get left behind and that is exactly what they are doing, they're keeping their rhythym and not following others attacks, what most don't do is be able to rival known climbers at a gt because they decided 'to try' this time.

 

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":1q67p9wh]Like others have said; Everybody is capable of it, but most dont do it. It's not an advantage or whatever, just something we all notice from TD by watching television. For him, this is the best tactic for a good result. Doped or not, its not something to get totally crazy about and call him a fanboy.

But most do do it, look at the majority of riders as they get left behind and that is exactly what they are doing, they're keeping their rhythym and not following others attacks, what most don't do is be able to rival known climbers at a gt because they decided 'to try' this time.[/quote]

The riders Dumoulin 'left behind' that would normally end up in front of him cracked by either attacking or following attacks like mad, or instantly. So no.

 

[Bumeington]

Re:

A while back there was a discussion about the differences in power between going at steady rhythm and accelerating and decelerating. Well, the energy equation pretty much has the terms but most of the times it is ignored because cannot be measured accurately. But if you make an attempt to take it into account by making some assumptions the value is not that big.

So if don't accelerate at all is zero. If you do it 10 times, but not starting from rest unless it is a very steep climb then it could amount to 5 watts. Not sure if it ever get to 10 watts. The experiment would have to be done with a power meter.

So in conclusion you still need either the power in your system whether is drugs or natural.

10 watts is still 1 minute on a 50 minute climb, but yes, riding steady doesn't mean any old chump can suddenly top 10 mountain stages

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":3ao9stei]Like others have said; Everybody is capable of it, but most dont do it. It's not an advantage or whatever, just something we all notice from TD by watching television. For him, this is the best tactic for a good result. Doped or not, its not something to get totally crazy about and call him a fanboy.

But most do do it, look at the majority of riders as they get left behind and that is exactly what they are doing, they're keeping their rhythym and not following others attacks, what most don't do is be able to rival known climbers at a gt because they decided 'to try' this time.[/quote]Than you are watching something different than most.

I understand this is a very fine line we are walking on but its quite clear that most ''try'' to follow first and some even attack. Dumoulin always comes from behind (Tour of Switzerland and a couple of times in the Vuelta) more so than most of his competitors. That's the point.

 

[No_Balls]

Re: Re:

Vuelta is juice paradise, Cobo, Horner, and now this. This race is becoming laughable.

As opposed to Armstrong's seven Tour wins, Wiggins Contador and Froome. Menchov, Basso and Di Luca.

And pretty much every other juice fueled edition of those races since the dawn of time.

Fair points, and yes doping is rampant in all three GTs.
However, one could argue that guys like Wiggins/froome/Lance never timed their doping program to peak for the vuelta. The race just isn't important enough compared to the TdF and even the Giro.

I also seem to remember some arguments that suggest testing at the Vuelta is really close to non-existent, and even more lax than at the TdF. There were stories about corrupt chaperones, lack of testing, etc. Maybe somebody can help me out here. (That's not to say testing is anywhere close to decent at the TdF of course.)

I admit i'm sort of intuitively tempted by the idea that many teams/riders use the vuelta to experiment (and i don't mean bike technology). Sky 2010 springs to mind of course. Horner also. And Contador 2012/14, two years when he was clearly holding back on the juice in the TdF (for understandable reasons), then seemed to go full genius in the Vuelta.
Top dogs like Lance/Froome/Wiggins, otoh, will always want to peak for the TdF.

Agree. Vuelta offers a expectional opportunity for the teams/riders to finetune their performances over a three weeks period without too much stress involved so that the routines will be in place for Tour de France. Sometimes they´ll try to be competitive (like Armstrong -98 and Froome 2011) if it is a serious attempt for a long term plan.

 

[The Principal Sheep]

Re: Re:

The riders Dumoulin 'left behind' that would normally end up in front of him cracked by either attacking or following attacks like mad, or instantly. So no.

I don't follow, what are you saying 'no' about?_?

 

[WheelofGear]

Dumoulin was one of the best riders in the first week. Why don't we talk about Aru and Landa's sudden mega-improvement after the rest day?

Tom Dumoulin at least deserves the benefit of the doubt. He wasn't flying up the climb like Aru and Landa.