Electronic shifting v Mechanical?

[Oldman]

Ok .. I know that you'll think that I'm trolling now, but please tell me.. What is the reason to go for an electronic groupset by the time that has the same design and logic with a mechanical groupset?

I mean still has the same kind of shifters, in the same place and the only thing that changes is this auto trim of the front derailleur which is not such a problem for an experienced rider.

I personally would expect something more from electronic groupsets in order to make the upgrade. For example a totally new design on shifters, perhaps something in soft touch (!!), or not having to move my fingers from the bar, or no cables at all, or even better, shifting in gear ratios instead of front disks and cassette's sprockets, something that would eliminated any chain problems. and would allow to exist only one shifter on the handlebar instead of two and so less weight and even more accurate shifting.

I think that that's the meaning of going electronic. Otherwise mechanical groupsets, especially the expensive ones, work perfectly as they are ( and in the logic of "less is more"). [/QUOTE

Most sensible point made. Meanwhile the tech Grrrls are fighting about which $3,000 electro-Shifta sucks less. Race it and own it. Racer's aren't mechanics.

 

[gerundium]

Ok .. I know that you'll think that I'm trolling now, but please tell me.. What is the reason to go for an electronic groupset by the time that has the same design and logic with a mechanical groupset?

I mean still has the same kind of shifters, in the same place and the only thing that changes is this auto trim of the front derailleur which is not such a problem for an experienced rider.

I personally would expect something more from electronic groupsets in order to make the upgrade. For example a totally new design on shifters, perhaps something in soft touch (!!), or not having to move my fingers from the bar, or no cables at all, or even better, shifting in gear ratios instead of front disks and cassette's sprockets, something that would eliminated any chain problems. and would allow to exist only one shifter on the handlebar instead of two and so less weight and even more accurate shifting.

I think that that's the meaning of going electronic. Otherwise mechanical groupsets, especially the expensive ones, work perfectly as they are ( and in the logic of "less is more").

Satellite shifters don't count?

Nor do Sprint shifters?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Obviously you were the one who was foolishly enough to end up buying two groupo's when I some of us rode the same one during that time.

I was in a bike shop Einstein, I didn't buy anything.

 

[alitogata]

Satellite shifters don't count?

Nor do Sprint shifters?

Electronic groupsets don't have this kind of shifting out of the box.. ( as far as I know). Of course it is possible to do modifications in shifting by demand, but I guess these cost extra.

My point is that electronic groupsets don't offer yet any kind of true technological improvement. It is just the same "old" technology and design, working with electronic way, something that IMO is not necessary, because it gives nothing simpler or more convenient. It is just the same plus the battery's weight, and the care of recharging it every now and then.

When they'll put on market the shifting by gear ratios be sure that I'll be the first to do the upgrade.. !!

ETA: I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion, but cycling has to do a lot with autonomy. Having a bike means that you don't need to get energy or fuel from somewhere, neither have to go only to places that there are sockets in order to recharge. In the end of the day I wouldn't like to think that I wouldn't be able to ride my bike, because I couldn't find a place to recharge my electronic groupset.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

The biggest benefit for electronic shifting is the absence of the cable, pretty obvious right, maybe not to the last couple posters, especially for CX and gravel racing, adverse weather on the road. Can't even begin to count how many times my CX rig turned into a 1X transmission because of jammed front der cables from mud contamination, riding in the rain on road rides knowing that I don't have to kill an entire morning overhauling cables. Killing that stupid fd pulley on CX bikes over the last couple years with top pull front der's is better, but still not as good as electronic, you still get the contamination, cable stretch, wast of time to replace, re-lube. For those in the 'it's just the same old mechanical doing it electronically camp' you need to try it, you may actually like it. Can't get where we're going unless we try new things.

 

[alitogata]

The biggest benefit for electronic shifting is the absence of the cable, pretty obvious right, maybe not to the last couple posters, especially for CX and gravel racing, adverse weather on the road. Can't even begin to count how many times my CX rig turned into a 1X transmission because of jammed front der cables from mud contamination, riding in the rain on road rides knowing that I don't have to kill an entire morning overhauling cables. Killing that stupid fd pulley on CX bikes over the last couple years with top pull front der's is better, but still not as good as electronic, you still get the contamination, cable stretch, wast of time to replace, re-lube. For those in the 'it's just the same old mechanical doing it electronically camp' you need to try it, you may actually like it. Can't get where we're going unless we try new things.

I totally agree with your last argument but:
the pros must be more than the cons for every so called novelty. You say you don't have to change cables, but you still have cables, ( the electric ones). What happens if you run out of power in the middle of nowhere? You'll have again the one gear option to go on with it and no alternatives. What happens if you run out of power due to malfunction. You can't help yourself. You have again the one gear option and have to take the bike for service too because you can't fix it yourself. You have to pay someone else to fix it for you, while with a mechanical groupset, you can fix it somehow yourself, even if you are not an expert, with a spare new cable.

You may tell me that electronic groupsets don't have fails, but I'm thinking that probably the one damn time that this may happen, I will be depended on the closest bike service for electronic groupsets, available.

Can you imagine something like this happen to you in a randonneur bike ride?? I don't even wanna think about it..

Anyway. What I'm writing here is just my opinion. Anyone can choose for his/her self what works better for him/her.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I totally agree with your last argument but:
the pros must be more than the cons for every so called novelty. You say you don't have to change cables, but you still have cables, ( the electric ones). What happens if you run out of power in the middle of nowhere? You'll have again the one gear option to go on with it and no alternatives. What happens if you run out of power due to malfunction. You can't help yourself. You have again the one gear option and have to take the bike for service too because you can't fix it yourself. You have to pay someone else to fix it for you, while with a mechanical groupset, you can fix it somehow yourself, even if you are not an expert, with a spare new cable.

You may tell me that electronic groupsets don't have fails, but I'm thinking that probably the one damn time that this may happen, I will be depended on the closest bike service for electronic groupsets, available.

Can you imagine something like this happen to you in a randonneur bike ride?? I don't even wanna think about it..

Anyway. What I'm writing here is just my opinion. Anyone can choose for his/her self what works better for him/her.

Cables get worn, stretch, contaminated even with full housing, these electronic systems use wires with a silicone casing that are virtually weather proof even if fully exposed, but are usually run internally. Make sense? Was under the general assumption that we're talking about race tech here, not rando and touring rigs. No matter, electronics will eventually hit that portion of the industry as well. I realize there's a heavy contingent of Luddites in cycling, but come on.

You bring up a good point about system fail or power loss for touring. As this tech gets better it will be more of a realization for longer distances. I have a super portable camp stove that I use for weekend bike packing trips where I'm able to recharge my phone and GPS unit while cooking!!! http://www.biolitestove.com/ Why not a Di2 or EPS battery pack? How about diagnosing with an app on your phone? It's all coming, sooner than you think.

 

[alitogata]

Cables get worn, stretch, contaminated even with full housing, these electronic systems use wires with a silicone casing that are virtually weather proof even if fully exposed, but are usually run internally. Make sense? Was under the general assumption that we're talking about race tech here, not rando and touring rigs. No matter, electronics will eventually hit that portion of the industry as well. I realize there's a heavy contingent of Luddites in cycling, but come on.

Actually you bring up a good point about, system fail or power loss for touring. As this tech gets better it will be more of a realization for longer distances. I have a super portable camp stove that I use for weekend bike packing trips where I'm able to recharge my phone and GPS unit while cooking!!! http://www.biolitestove.com/ Why not a Di2 or EPS battery pack?

You made sense.. Unfortunately is not very easy for me to be accurate on what I'm saying as English is not my first language. I meant "wires" when I wrote for the cables in my previous post. I apologize about my mistake.

I also didn't noticed anywhere that the discussion is only about racing technology and I don't really know from where you end up with the conclusion that electronic groupsets are for exclusive use from racers.. I suppose that any kind of new tech improvement must be available for everyone, if it can cover everyone's needs of course.

Your camp stove looks like a great and environmentally friendly camp gear.. But it seems that what you do, is in a contradiction with what you want and I say this because you seem to care for environment and buy such a stove, but on the other hand you say that this can charge your electronic groupset bike too, while you have the option not to have have to charge such a groupset at all by the time that you have the mechanical alternative that works same well. To your question my answer is the same as above.. Because less (technology) is more ( when you have to deal with it yourself).

I don't know if you get the point and if I wrote it better this time.

 

[ElChingon]

I was in a bike shop Einstein, I didn't buy anything.

So you have no point to make then.

 

[laziali]

... ETA: I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion, but cycling has to do a lot with autonomy. Having a bike means that you don't need to get energy or fuel from somewhere, neither have to go only to places that there are sockets in order to recharge. In the end of the day I wouldn't like to think that I wouldn't be able to ride my bike, because I couldn't find a place to recharge my electronic groupset.

Battery charge on Di2 lasts around 2,000km so charging is no great chore - for most folks every 5 to 20 weeks depending on how much they ride. It has a warning at 50% and flashing light at 25%. You don't have to wait for battery to be flat before charging either.

 

[laziali]

So you have no point to make then.

Impeccable logic ElChingon - you don't own Di2 or EPS and yet you express opinions without seeing the contraction with your assertion that Busted has no point to make on Zap/Mek. Wow, with reasoning skills like that

On your logic, I haven't tried eating gravel so I can't say it's not a good idea

Surely not a troll? BTW, might be worth retiring the "Badass" user name - you know, another guy liked to call himself "Badass" as well, didn't work out so well for him lately.

 

[Polyarmour]

I have Dura Ace Di2 and it hasn't made me ride any faster. Spend your money on stuff that actually makes you go faster.

 

[elapid]

I have Dura Ace Di2 and it hasn't made me ride any faster. Spend your money on stuff that actually makes you go faster.

Lots of things on a bike don't make you faster, but we still have them. Saddles, bars, bottle cages, bottles, computers, saddle bags, brakes, etc. Function, safety and comfort are also important depending on the reasons why you ride a bike. Why have DA instead of Ultegra? Why have a 250g saddle instead of a 125g blade saddle? Why have ergonomic bars instead of a traditional bars? Why have a computer? Why have bottle cages, bottles and saddle bags when they add weight and slow you down? I changed from mechanical DA to Ultegra Di2 because I wanted to try something different. It hasn't made me go faster, but it is one of the many little thing that puts a smile on my face while riding.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

So you have no point to make then.

Except I have to install the Mavic junk, try and TRY to make it work, including the really crappy FD shifter with the huge WingNut shifter(as I mentioned), listen to the owner tell me stories about how if he even thought of riding in the rain and the stuff stopped working. Then take it off, box it up, send the junk back to Mavic and install a group that worked well, very well.

I bet I have seen more mavic groups and electronic and mechanical groups that you have seen hot meals.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

You made sense.. Unfortunately is not very easy for me to be accurate on what I'm saying as English is not my first language. I meant "wires" when I wrote for the cables in my previous post. I apologize about my mistake.

That's quite alright, English is my 2nd language too so I understand, but you may want to learn it a bit more before you start debating people, just a friendly bit of advice.

I also didn't noticed anywhere that the discussion is only about racing technology and I don't really know from where you end up with the conclusion that electronic groupsets are for exclusive use from racers.. I suppose that any kind of new tech improvement must be available for everyone, if it can cover everyone's needs of course.

Look at the grouppos we're talking about, all are road race oriented. This forum is on a racing site, and most of the discussion on this forum is about racing and the technology that supports it. Why would anyone assume differently? Currently there are no electronic touring grade grouppos, and I will be first in line should one be released.

Your camp stove looks like a great and environmentally friendly camp gear.. But it seems that what you do, is in a contradiction with what you want and I say this because you seem to care for environment and buy such a stove, but on the other hand you say that this can charge your electronic groupset bike too, while you have the option not to have have to charge such a groupset at all by the time that you have the mechanical alternative that works same well. To your question my answer is the same as above.. Because less (technology) is more ( when you have to deal with it yourself).

I drive a motor vehicle on average twice a week through the course of an entire year, the rest of my life is spent on a bike. I grow over 50% of the food I consume in my backyard. I'll bet the farm that most of the people on this forum cannot say the same just on those two topics, that was just a small sample of the things I try to be a good steward of the environment. The whole point of electronic drivetrains is to make shifting more accurate, reliable, with less service. And I don't really believe that less tech is more, I think we advance technology to make our lives better.

I don't know if you get the point and if I wrote it better this time.

Not really, you need more practice for sure..

 

[cadelcrybaby]

Had a first go on these last week. Very smooth and precise. Looks like a great system and I'm sure they'll be on every $3000 machine within a couple of years.

Should be lower maintenance, but downsides are replacement costs if they break, and what would happen if they stopped working 220k into a 300k ride

 

[alitogata]

That's quite alright, English is my 2nd language too so I understand, but you may want to learn it a bit more before you start debating people, just a friendly bit of advice.

Look at the grouppos we're talking about, all are road race oriented. This forum is on a racing site, and most of the discussion on this forum is about racing and the technology that supports it. Why would anyone assume differently? Currently there are no electronic touring grade grouppos, and I will be first in line should one be released.

I drive a motor vehicle on average twice a week through the course of an entire year, the rest of my life is spent on a bike. I grow over 50% of the food I consume in my backyard. I'll bet the farm that most of the people on this forum cannot say the same just on those two topics, that was just a small sample of the things I try to be a good steward of the environment. The whole point of electronic drivetrains is to make shifting more accurate, reliable, with less service. And I don't really believe that less tech is more, I think we advance technology to make our lives better.
Not really, you need more practice for sure..

I like very much what you've said about the way you live and it is really close the way I live too. I don't own a motor car and my transports are done mainly with bicycle for the last 26 years.

I suppose that my English knowledge will get better if I practice more and have patient and positive people to discuss with. So there's no need for misunderstandings or taking personal an argument in a post as there are not such intentions. On the other hand is not a good advice the one you give me to debate only if I'm sure about my language skills. They are not that bad and I will not have the chance to make them better if I don't debate at all..

About races. I was racing when I was younger, I have a road bike as well and I have tested the electronic groupsets you refer. So I know how these work and what are their specs but I didn't choose to put one of these groupsets in one of my bikes because I think that there must be more things to be done, in order to accept this groupsets as enough technological advanced and indeed cover my expectations about how they will make my life easier.

I like innovations, I totally agree with you that technology has to make our lives easier but I think that electronic groupsets are not yet in this level. And this is the reason I haven't done the upgrade yet.

It is expected that this grouppos ( as you call them ) are race oriented, after all, any kind of novelty is tested in races first and then passes to the every day users. I'm standing somewhere between. Not a professional athlete, I still race in recreational events, I have turn my attention to long distance cycling, randonneaurs or similar.

I guess also that most of people writing reviews in this forum about electronic groupset, is in a same position like I am. I want to say, that I don't think that most of the people here are top professional cyclists. So it would be interest to discuss if we, ( I mean people like me and you and like other members) find that these kind of groupsets can cover the needs and make life easier for this group of people and not only for pros.

I say that they are not ready yet.. and that the upgrade from mechanical to electronic doesn't worth the amount of money that we pay for the practicality of the technology that will get .

 

[laziali]

I suppose that my English knowledge will get better if I practice more and have patient and positive people to discuss with. So there's no need for misunderstandings or taking personal an argument in a post as there are not such intentions. On the other hand is not a good advice the one you give me to debate only if I'm sure about my language skills. They are not that bad and I will not have the chance to make them better if I don't debate at all.

IMO your English skills are very advanced for a non-native speaker and what you are now refining are some of the finer subtleties of expression. Don't feel discouraged from engaging in debate - it's the very best way of developing your skills.

 

[alitogata]

IMO your English skills are very advanced for a non-native speaker and what you are now refining are some of the finer subtleties of expression. Don't feel discouraged from engaging in debate - it's the very best way of developing your skills.

Thank you. You are very kind and encouraging.. Thank you.

 

[ElChingon]

Except I have to install the Mavic junk, try and TRY to make it work, including the really crappy FD shifter with the huge WingNut shifter(as I mentioned), listen to the owner tell me stories about how if he even thought of riding in the rain and the stuff stopped working. Then take it off, box it up, send the junk back to Mavic and install a group that worked well, very well.

I bet I have seen more mavic groups and electronic and mechanical groups that you have seen hot meals.

Well some of us have actually been invited to the opening of the USA distributorship and have been invited back on the release of new projects. Then being invited to visit the main factory and walk about amongst the actual machines making the components, even before the new products being made were out to market, yea I think just the one visit in Europe puts me at least a few million groupo's over your bag of broken parts. Sadly I didn't get allowed into the electronic groupo design group area when it was still in its design/concept phase (when I was there) though.

I rode my Mektronic in the rain countless times and not one glitch, much to the surprise of those riding with me, funnier still was seeing a stranded rider with a broken derailure cable, it was too much for him to ride on the smaller chainring. Some people have it some people don't, you just have to sit with those that don't

 

[ElChingon]

Impeccable logic ElChingon - you don't own Di2 or EPS and yet you express opinions without seeing the contraction with your assertion that Busted has no point to make on Zap/Mek. Wow, with reasoning skills like that

On your logic, I haven't tried eating gravel so I can't say it's not a good idea

Surely not a troll? BTW, might be worth retiring the "Badass" user name - you know, another guy liked to call himself "Badass" as well, didn't work out so well for him lately.

When did I say I never tried Di2 or EPS? I probably rode EPS before any store had one in stock, maybe not before the InterBike show but still before the masses did.

Just because I think it should be wireless doesn't mean its not functional (the new Di2 or EPS, although I'd never be caught with Di2 on anything I own).

As for the name, google translate you're using does not do the name justice, if you don't know what it means you'd be best to just forget about it.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I like very much what you've said about the way you live and it is really close the way I live too. I don't own a motor car and my transports are done mainly with bicycle for the last 26 years.

I suppose that my English knowledge will get better if I practice more and have patient and positive people to discuss with. So there's no need for misunderstandings or taking personal an argument in a post as there are not such intentions. On the other hand is not a good advice the one you give me to debate only if I'm sure about my language skills. They are not that bad and I will not have the chance to make them better if I don't debate at all..

About races. I was racing when I was younger, I have a road bike as well and I have tested the electronic groupsets you refer. So I know how these work and what are their specs but I didn't choose to put one of these groupsets in one of my bikes because I think that there must be more things to be done, in order to accept this groupsets as enough technological advanced and indeed cover my expectations about how they will make my life easier.

I like innovations, I totally agree with you that technology has to make our lives easier but I think that electronic groupsets are not yet in this level. And this is the reason I haven't done the upgrade yet.

It is expected that this grouppos ( as you call them ) are race oriented, after all, any kind of novelty is tested in races first and then passes to the every day users. I'm standing somewhere between. Not a professional athlete, I still race in recreational events, I have turn my attention to long distance cycling, randonneaurs or similar.

I guess also that most of people writing reviews in this forum about electronic groupset, is in a same position like I am. I want to say, that I don't think that most of the people here are top professional cyclists. So it would be interest to discuss if we, ( I mean people like me and you and like other members) find that these kind of groupsets can cover the needs and make life easier for this group of people and not only for pros.

I say that they are not ready yet.. and that the upgrade from mechanical to electronic doesn't worth the amount of money that we pay for the practicality of the technology that will get .

That's all fine and good, have it your way, but I don't mind paying extra for new tech if it improves shifting performance, which electronic does, reduce maintenance time and costs, check and check. Bring on the new! That being said I'm about to hang a fully analog cabled Athena grouppo on my new CX frame.

 

[alitogata]

That's all fine and good, have it your way, but I don't mind paying extra for new tech if it improves shifting performance, which electronic does, reduce maintenance time and costs, check and check. Bring on the new! That being said I'm about to hang a fully analog cabled Athena grouppo on my new CX frame.

You must be kidding..Send it to me my friend.. I really appreciate reliable "old fashioned" stuff. lol

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Well some of us have actually been invited to the opening of the USA distributorship and have been invited back on the release of new projects. Then being invited to visit the main factory and walk about amongst the actual machines making the components, even before the new products being made were out to market, yea I think just the one visit in Europe puts me at least a few million groupo's over your bag of broken parts. Sadly I didn't get allowed into the electronic groupo design group area when it was still in its design/concept phase (when I was there) though.

I rode my Mektronic in the rain countless times and not one glitch, much to the surprise of those riding with me, funnier still was seeing a stranded rider with a broken derailure cable, it was too much for him to ride on the smaller chainring. Some people have it some people don't, you just have to sit with those that don't

You seem french...case closed. Still have your mektronic? How well does mavic support that these days?

 

[ElChingon]

You seem french...case closed. Still have your mektronic? How well does mavic support that these days?

You don't seem like a @$$#()|* but :?

Mavic is great, to me I'll let the rep. know how you feel though