European Championship 2025: Men’s RR, October 5

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31 seconds. That's less than a fifth Pogacar lost to him in a 40 km TT.
I'm talking about open road racing here, this minute, not time trialing, And if you're thinking that was Tadej's best effort... yeah, no. Tell you what, I'll use a couple less "O's" ok? So instead of "SOOOO much better", it can be "SOO much better." Ok by me. ;)

edit: I generally think I'm a pretty smart guy, but willingly choosing to wade into this minefield? Maybe I'm dumber than I thought. :p
 
Prior to the race, Danish TV 2 asked five of their so-called experts (of whom four are former pro riders) about how the race would go. Three of them expected Vingegaard to be 2nd or 3rd, and the other two had Skjelmose as 3rd. So all five expected a Danish medal.

That's why I have a problem with "experts". They simply don't see things objectively - although I would expect this to be their most important job.

The bookmakers were quite positive regarding Vingegaard's chances, and yet they didn't see him (on average) as one who would get on the podium. Also, we had heard from Visma that Vingegaard hadn't shown impressive form after the Vuelta. In addition, we all know that Vingegaard has a really really bad record at this kind of races.

So while I think it's okay if one of the "experts" or maybe two had expected a medal for Denmark, I regard the answers in their entirety to be more about creating excitement about Denmark's chances than about a realistic assessment based on some kind of analysis. I think that when TV 2 contacted them, they thought "okay, what answer would they be happy to hear?". And gave it to them.

Ultimately, these guys created unfair expectations regarding Vingegaard and made the viewers more disappointed than they had reason to be.
 
Seixas was still down about 3m40 when crossing the line, the same as a few km earlier, and he was going all in to be 3rd. So Pogacar didn't slow down a lot. Pogacar might have lost 5-10s max during the final km by slowing down. The difference to Remco would have been 35-40s if he continued his efforts. So Remco did gain about 20s as he put out a final effort, adding to the 20s he gained prior. Could Pogacar push harder to keep the gap to 1min? Maybe but I would give the TT champ some credit when he decides to go all in during the last few kms. It was likely insufficient, even if they added 10km flat, but he did everything to keep it close.
He had a 58" after the climb (7 km to the finish). He lost 27" on a 1.5 km descent and 5.5 flat section, do you really think it was just 5-10"? Please, leave the wonderland.
 
I read an interview where Remco was pleased because he held Pogacar's wheel for longer than he has done before on this sort of climb. Is that the right tactic though? Would he be better off letting the wheel go, climbing at his own tempo, and then seeing what time he could claw back on the downhill/ flatter sections of the course? I know it likely wouldn't change the outcome, but I don't know that cooking yourself trying to hold Pogacar's wheel does any good. It's why his long range attacks are always so successful. Pick a steep hill, absolutely send it, cook the opposition, and then keep the gap because everyone else is blown from trying to hold your wheel on the climb.
There wasn't much available for viewing here except some highlights including the climb that Remco detached from Tadej. I think there was still some 4-5km to the summit. When he dropped off he looked back to gauge how much help was coming. Presumably some of those dropped riders assisted as Ayuso claimed to do.

Your description of how TP controlled his race is spot on; like the WCRR, too.
He rides tactically flawless and doesn't let his ego change the necessary tempo to ride away from a pack with 75km to go. You only go as fast as needed and save something for sudden requirements like mechanicals. Hammering as hard as you can like it's a TT is no way to win. The equivocation of Remco's effort as nearly to Tadej's level are humorous at best. He and everyone got soundly schooled just like in Kingali. No comparison to Remco's TT dominance is relevant.
 
Did he really say it like that?
No he didn't say that, he said he was trying to help, like he was trying to help Del Toro at Giro, like he was trying to help Almeida at Vuelta, like he was trying to help UAE and his teammates when he held the now famous " dictatorship " media exchange..
Remco who didn't do any of those things said..
Remco says people phoning it in, not really working and Juan " dictatorship " Ayuso acting like he was all in..watch last 30-40 kilometers, Juan " what am I doing this for " is looking around how to drop without gapping the riders behind him.. Guy is soft..
 
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This might be the first belgian to say Merckx's era was a joke and Pogacar is clearly better.
Well, that's not what i said. Merckx was also much more dominant than Pogacar, he actually won more than 1 TT per year and he also won bunch sprints of over 50 riders. Even full on peloton sprints. He was also successful on the track and also had the world hour record. But yes, you can't compare it because he was racing in a time when riders were smoking and even putting alcohol in their bottles. Merckx even was on cigarette adverts. He did still win so much more than Pog though.
 
Prior to the race, Danish TV 2 asked five of their so-called experts (of whom four are former pro riders) about how the race would go. Three of them expected Vingegaard to be 2nd or 3rd, and the other two had Skjelmose as 3rd. So all five expected a Danish medal.

That's why I have a problem with "experts". They simply don't see things objectively - although I would expect this to be their most important job.

The bookmakers were quite positive regarding Vingegaard's chances, and yet they didn't see him (on average) as one who would get on the podium. Also, we had heard from Visma that Vingegaard hadn't shown impressive form after the Vuelta. In addition, we all know that Vingegaard has a really really bad record at this kind of races.

So while I think it's okay if one of the "experts" or maybe two had expected a medal for Denmark, I regard the answers in their entirety to be more about creating excitement about Denmark's chances than about a realistic assessment based on some kind of analysis. I think that when TV 2 contacted them, they thought "okay, what answer would they be happy to hear?". And gave it to them.

Ultimately, these guys created unfair expectations regarding Vingegaard and made the viewers more disappointed than they had reason to be.
That's strange. All the Belgian and Slovenian experts also expected medals... and they got them. Hmmm... i wonder...
 
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I read an interview where Remco was pleased because he held Pogacar's wheel for longer than he has done before on this sort of climb. Is that the right tactic though? Would he be better off letting the wheel go, climbing at his own tempo, and then seeing what time he could claw back on the downhill/ flatter sections of the course? I know it likely wouldn't change the outcome, but I don't know that cooking yourself trying to hold Pogacar's wheel does any good. It's why his long range attacks are always so successful. Pick a steep hill, absolutely send it, cook the opposition, and then keep the gap because everyone else is blown from trying to hold your wheel on the climb.
Agreed. However, those who didn't even try to follow him weren't doing better too. Pogacar is just miles better than the rest when we talk about w/kg. He is almost riding a zone below his rivals the entire race. Even on the big climb, he gained 35" but it's clear his rivals went deeper to maintain the gap "short".
 
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I'm just curious: had these European Championship climbing route ever been used on the Tour de France? I checked on ChatGPT, and the answer is no.
They use both climbs for the Faun-Ardeche classic.
 
Seixas was still down about 3m40 when crossing the line, the same as a few km earlier, and he was going all in to be 3rd. So Pogacar didn't slow down a lot. Pogacar might have lost 5-10s max during the final km by slowing down. The difference to Remco would have been 35-40s if he continued his efforts. So Remco did gain about 20s as he put out a final effort, adding to the 20s he gained prior. Could Pogacar push harder to keep the gap to 1min? Maybe but I would give the TT champ some credit when he decides to go all in during the last few kms. It was likely insufficient, even if they added 10km flat, but he did everything to keep it close.
Sorry but this doesn't make sense. Pog is riding as hard as needed to keep that 1 minute buffer. I'm sure he would hit a certain limit (as in: even when he would like to, he wouldn't be able to extend his lead to 3 minutes), but he seemed comfortable with his 1 minute gap and the more to the end, the less buffer he needs. He won't try to get a 2 minute gap just for the sake of it, because why would he go more into the red if the end result is the same (= he wins the race comfortably)?
He didn't care about the gap in the end so he gave away 30 seconds while easing up / celebrating. But no way he would give away 30 seconds somewhere during the race when he had a 1 minute gap, because he knows a minute is good enough and 30 seconds enables his chasers to see him riding which is a big moral boost.
 
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Jul 14, 2024
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They use both climbs for the Faun-Ardeche classic.
Yes. ChatGPT also informs like that, both climb used in Ardèche Classic. Both climbs sit in southern Ardèche, a region often skirted by the Tour but rarely entered deeply;
 
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Well, that's not what i said. Merckx was also much more dominant than Pogacar, he actually won more than 1 TT per year and he also won bunch sprints of over 50 riders. Even full on peloton sprints. He was also successful on the track and also had the world hour record. But yes, you can't compare it because he was racing in a time when riders were smoking and even putting alcohol in their bottles. Merckx even was on cigarette adverts. He did still win so much more than Pog though.
Personally, I would love to see some sort of line drawn (that would be a massive argument in and of itself, of course) between the "old days" and the new with respect to judging riders palmares. It's utterly unfair imho to be comparing Pogacar to Merckx; the fact is, if Eddy were riding today there is zero chance he'd match the palmares of the Eddy of old in this age of specialization and professionalism. Of course he would be great, but he sure as hell would not amass 525 wins, he wouldn't be riding track races in the winter, etc. I saw someone comment (maybe a year ago? Not going to try to look for it) to the extent that Tadej had a "long ways to go" before he even matched Fausto Coppi. I did some research, and just at random picked the 1940 Giro d'Italia. There were 91 starters, and every stage winner was Italian, no winners from any other nation. Out of those 91 starters, how many of those riders would even be considered much more than club riders today? (Understand Coppi missed years due to the war, that's not the point here.) Or Alfredo Binda's Giro wins; picked 1925 at random, sure enough, all the participants were Italian, no international competitors, no teams.

The fact is, there is just no comparison between that and a modern GT where just about every rider in the field will be living like monks most of the year, and where so many stages are raced nearly full gas instead of 'piano'. I have been following cycling seriously since the early 80's and am well aware of (and respect) the history and legends of the sport, but I think it is patently ridiculous to be comparing modern riders to riders from that era or earlier; as far as I'm concerned it's hardly even the same sport and comparisons between the old and the new are frankly silly imho.. I understand recency bias, of course, but I think what I might call 'historical bias' (or whatever) is every bit as bad.

PS. I can't stress enough that I of course believe that the greats of old, given modern training methods and professionalism, would be standout riders in today's peloton; just saying I think comparing palmares from older eras to the modern era is silly.

Yeah, this will stir up the hornet's nest I imagine.
 
i dont know,if thye know each other numbers,but its funny pog keepin at 1 minute remco like he has his watts before him.pog was just lookig at watts and kept it at 1 minute easy.it think pog has measured both jonas and remco,lmaoo.
 
Personally, I would love to see some sort of line drawn (that would be a massive argument in and of itself, of course) between the "old days" and the new with respect to judging riders palmares. It's utterly unfair imho to be comparing Pogacar to Merckx; the fact is, if Eddy were riding today there is zero chance he'd match the palmares of the Eddy of old in this age of specialization and professionalism.
Maybe it's more fair to turn it around as well: How much would Pog have won in the days of Merckx, on old steel bikes, bad hotels without airco during the Tour, unfomfortable clothing, having to change your tubulars when flatting during training rides, without altitude camps and sunny winter training stints in southern Spain but only CX and track to keep you fit? Would Pog even have made it into the pro ranks having to fight his way through amateur races where, in those days, GT -focused riders weren't thriving?
 
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