I can't get over how much emphasis Cadel puts in his book about being clean. He's either clean, or tempting fate to a degree that makes Lance's antics look humble by comparison and which would be completely unnecessary. Even someone as brash as Lance really just wanted to divert the conversation away from doping. Cadel delves into it. If he's lying like you guys say he is, then he's of very poor character. I understand why riders choose to dope, but not that kind of grandstanding about it. It would be one hell of a diversion for him to take.
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Re: Re:
I remember reading that his heart was larger than average, probably just spin from his media but I think it was also repeated in his first book before it started clogging up second hand book stores and discount stores. I have also read about champion racehorse having larger hearts than normal but then doping is also a problem in that industry. I think it was at the Australian Institute of Sport where Cadel's testing was done. I'm not sure if it was their best result ever but it was very high. Not sure what stage of his career that was done, i think pretty early on. I think he also had some good results at the Mapei institute as well. Looking at the Armstrong that won the World Roads and the Armstrong that won his first Tour well they look like two different riders body shape wise.
Neworld said:
I remember reading that his heart was larger than average, probably just spin from his media but I think it was also repeated in his first book before it started clogging up second hand book stores and discount stores. I have also read about champion racehorse having larger hearts than normal but then doping is also a problem in that industry. I think it was at the Australian Institute of Sport where Cadel's testing was done. I'm not sure if it was their best result ever but it was very high. Not sure what stage of his career that was done, i think pretty early on. I think he also had some good results at the Mapei institute as well. Looking at the Armstrong that won the World Roads and the Armstrong that won his first Tour well they look like two different riders body shape wise.
An enlarged heart is a symptom of systematic endurance training. It's just a muscle like any other. Whether an athlete has a genetically larger than normal heart cannot be measured by simply observing its size at some point in their career, by which time their training would have had an effect.
- Aug 5, 2009
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Well if he is lying to that degree he wouldn't be the first person to claim to be someone and then turn out to be someone completely different. It's a kind of psychosis. That's where the general cycling fan feels so betrayed when the news breaks. Long term cycling fans have needed to be more cynical just to remain fans or they just love the sport too much to let it go completely but Armstrong built an entire myth about his life that hurt a lot of people especially people that saw him as a role model or the comeback kid. It damaged the entire sporting world and also ruined a lot of reputations re his supporters. It will be one of the most infamous sporting stories for many years to come. Evans is no doubt eccentric but he would be a special sort of egomaniac to be writing books like that. I really have to read this book now, my curiousity has been pricked.
delbified said:
Well if he is lying to that degree he wouldn't be the first person to claim to be someone and then turn out to be someone completely different. It's a kind of psychosis. That's where the general cycling fan feels so betrayed when the news breaks. Long term cycling fans have needed to be more cynical just to remain fans or they just love the sport too much to let it go completely but Armstrong built an entire myth about his life that hurt a lot of people especially people that saw him as a role model or the comeback kid. It damaged the entire sporting world and also ruined a lot of reputations re his supporters. It will be one of the most infamous sporting stories for many years to come. Evans is no doubt eccentric but he would be a special sort of egomaniac to be writing books like that. I really have to read this book now, my curiousity has been pricked.
Re: Re:
I just can't see Evans voluntarily putting himself forward that way as a clean rider, when he could just quietly walk away from the sport with his Tour trophy and avoid digging a bigger hole for himself. Why focus on it? It would be such a ballsy, unnecessary tactic. And unlike Evans, who doesn't court that sort of controversy or want to take the fight forward that way. In his book he talks about deliberately avoiding thinking about others doping, because he didn't want to make excuses for losing to them. That's either a convenient lie, or a plausible reason.
If Evans has decided that offence is the best defence and that making a big deal of his clean riding to cover his doping history is his tactic, then that's not a side of Evans that I've seen previously. It's something that if anyone was to do, Lance would have, but even he didn't have the gall to do that.
For many fans, when Lance started calling for the doping accusations to stop, my impression was most people (the general public with an awareness of Lance and cycling) backed him because they didn't feel he had a case to answer. But as the accusations built up against him, that call looked increasingly like avoiding the issue and just arose suspicions. Point being - if you have no case to answer (and the predominant views here about Evans, right or wrong, are not shared broadly outside of this forum - he's still seen by most as clean), and you're actually guilty, you'd cut your losses and run - surely?
This is a key factor in why I believe Evans was clean. Armstrong never put that line forward until he was accused of doping. He might have been psychopathic, but even he wasn't brazen enough to proactively try and carve out an image for himself as a model for clean cyclists. He knew he was dirty, and his principal tactic was to get people to stop talking about doping.movingtarget said:
I just can't see Evans voluntarily putting himself forward that way as a clean rider, when he could just quietly walk away from the sport with his Tour trophy and avoid digging a bigger hole for himself. Why focus on it? It would be such a ballsy, unnecessary tactic. And unlike Evans, who doesn't court that sort of controversy or want to take the fight forward that way. In his book he talks about deliberately avoiding thinking about others doping, because he didn't want to make excuses for losing to them. That's either a convenient lie, or a plausible reason.
If Evans has decided that offence is the best defence and that making a big deal of his clean riding to cover his doping history is his tactic, then that's not a side of Evans that I've seen previously. It's something that if anyone was to do, Lance would have, but even he didn't have the gall to do that.
For many fans, when Lance started calling for the doping accusations to stop, my impression was most people (the general public with an awareness of Lance and cycling) backed him because they didn't feel he had a case to answer. But as the accusations built up against him, that call looked increasingly like avoiding the issue and just arose suspicions. Point being - if you have no case to answer (and the predominant views here about Evans, right or wrong, are not shared broadly outside of this forum - he's still seen by most as clean), and you're actually guilty, you'd cut your losses and run - surely?
At some point Cadel bulked up physically the way I only remember it from Andy Hampsten in 1992.
Where the trend was already to loose weight in the mid2000s, Cadel bulked up, going from a tender and lean athlete to an English full back, physically.
I think It it was HGh and steroids (which could also account for his roid rages).
And of course Epo otherwise I don't know how he managed to become a better climber whilst gaining weight.
Where the trend was already to loose weight in the mid2000s, Cadel bulked up, going from a tender and lean athlete to an English full back, physically.
I think It it was HGh and steroids (which could also account for his roid rages).
And of course Epo otherwise I don't know how he managed to become a better climber whilst gaining weight.
Re:
I haven't been to the Tour in France yet, but I saw Wiggo up close in 2009 here in Melbourne. He remains the skinniest person I've seen in the flesh. That dude was nothing. We know how pros (and Wiggo) get that skinny - steroids that help shed fat while retaining muscle. Cadel has never had that super-withered look.
Ummm... really? Cadel is one of the tiniest blokes you'll meet. He's not as withered as a Rasmussen or Schleck, but he's nothing like when Armstrong was roid raging. Sorry but I don't think 'bulked up' and 'Cadel' should be in the same sentence.sniper said:
I haven't been to the Tour in France yet, but I saw Wiggo up close in 2009 here in Melbourne. He remains the skinniest person I've seen in the flesh. That dude was nothing. We know how pros (and Wiggo) get that skinny - steroids that help shed fat while retaining muscle. Cadel has never had that super-withered look.
- Aug 5, 2009
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Evans is only 174 cm's. When he won the Tour of Tasmania and comparing his body then to his first few Tours the difference is marked. But how many 19 year old's retain their body shape especially after years of training and racing. Look at McEwen even as a new pro sprinter he was tiny compared to later in his career where the thighs and forearms were noticeably larger. Ewan is also tiny, see how he is in five years or more. Conversely it was also noticeable that some riders that doped pretty much always had the same body shape maybe because they always doped, i don't know. The so called roid rages probably had more to do with the media frenzy and people tapping him on an injured shoulder after a stage. Evans never hid his distaste for dealing with the media and even late in his career he always looked uncomfortable. He just hated being in the spotlight. I just think he is a true introvert and mostly would prefer to be on his own although sometimes he would come out of his shell. When he was talking about the racing he seemed fine but hated talking about himself and his private life. He couldn't even accept a compliment without looking like he wanted to jump out the window, some thought he was just a sour human being or maybe it was because he was shy and more humble than people thought.
sniper said:
Evans is only 174 cm's. When he won the Tour of Tasmania and comparing his body then to his first few Tours the difference is marked. But how many 19 year old's retain their body shape especially after years of training and racing. Look at McEwen even as a new pro sprinter he was tiny compared to later in his career where the thighs and forearms were noticeably larger. Ewan is also tiny, see how he is in five years or more. Conversely it was also noticeable that some riders that doped pretty much always had the same body shape maybe because they always doped, i don't know. The so called roid rages probably had more to do with the media frenzy and people tapping him on an injured shoulder after a stage. Evans never hid his distaste for dealing with the media and even late in his career he always looked uncomfortable. He just hated being in the spotlight. I just think he is a true introvert and mostly would prefer to be on his own although sometimes he would come out of his shell. When he was talking about the racing he seemed fine but hated talking about himself and his private life. He couldn't even accept a compliment without looking like he wanted to jump out the window, some thought he was just a sour human being or maybe it was because he was shy and more humble than people thought.
^That didn't quite work.
Anyhow,
I do think he bulked up more than most other cyclists of his time.
Anyhow,
I do think he bulked up more than most other cyclists of his time.
Re:
There's nothing in that photo (BMC) that screams steroids to me. Which proves precisely nothing either way.
That looks like just body shape changing with age. People call me skinny at 40+ but the difference from when I was 19 is night and day. You can keep the weight off (well I couldn't) but your shape changes.sniper said:
There's nothing in that photo (BMC) that screams steroids to me. Which proves precisely nothing either way.
Show me another cyclist from his generation who both (a) bulked up like that and (b) climbed with the best.
My guess is you can't.
My guess is you can't.
Re:
This stuff is not evidence. When do we start discussing his bum-chin? This stuff is out there on the fringes.
I just can't see how he's bulked up. Anyway, he never really climbed with the best. He hung on in the mountains for dear life, then relied on his TT (as per 2011 Tour) to make up time.sniper said:
This stuff is not evidence. When do we start discussing his bum-chin? This stuff is out there on the fringes.
Agreed it's not evidence.
But we discuss Froome's and Wiggins weightloss in relation to doping. Similarly we can discuss Hampstens and Cadels bulking up in the context of doping. We do it with Gareth Bale and C Ronaldo, too.
He was always a GT contender so needed to climb with the best. The question is why did he bulk up where others of his time preferred to bulk down.
For a sprinter it makes sense, for a GC rider less so.
The question is how did he compensate for being relatively bulky?
Most likely with rampant o2 vector doping and at least in 2011 possibly also with a motor.
But we discuss Froome's and Wiggins weightloss in relation to doping. Similarly we can discuss Hampstens and Cadels bulking up in the context of doping. We do it with Gareth Bale and C Ronaldo, too.
He was always a GT contender so needed to climb with the best. The question is why did he bulk up where others of his time preferred to bulk down.
For a sprinter it makes sense, for a GC rider less so.
The question is how did he compensate for being relatively bulky?
Most likely with rampant o2 vector doping and at least in 2011 possibly also with a motor.
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Two photos in the same position may have worked better, one is obviously closer and front on. What is the time gap between the photos ? Ten years ?
sniper said:![url]](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5Burl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fkeyassets.timeincuk.net%2Finspirewp%2Flive%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F2%2F2014%2F11%2FWATSON_00002133-007-cropped.jpg%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fkeyassets.timeincuk.net%2Finspirewp%2Flive%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F2%2F2014%2F11%2FWATSON_00002133-007-cropped.jpg%5B%2Furl%5D&hash=83373c9e37b8d1e0c5710855249107e0)
![url]](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5Burl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F2%2F25%2FCadel_Evans_Tour_de_France_2012%2C_Warm_up.jpg%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F2%2F25%2FCadel_Evans_Tour_de_France_2012%2C_Warm_up.jpg%5B%2Furl%5D&hash=e5a8fe4a87ca9c809507e1a26c4cab4a)
Two photos in the same position may have worked better, one is obviously closer and front on. What is the time gap between the photos ? Ten years ?
- Aug 5, 2009
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The funny thing is with the tall riders like Froome. Wiggins and Andy Schleck you look at their legs and wonder where the power comes from at all. There just doesn't seem to be much muscle there at all. You compare them to Armstrong or Ullrich and the differences are obvious. Neither of those two were short either. No doubt Evans did stand out in the mountains even compared to other short riders like Cunego and Leipheimer. Compared to other climbers Evans almost looked like a sprinter. The stop start attacks in the mountains were his achilles heal, the lighter pure climbers and their accelerations were too much for him and it usually ended up as damage control for Evans and minimizing his losses. It's amazing he did as well as he did considering some of the jockeys he was riding against. But his weight definitely helped him in the TT and also in the colder weather. Vino was similar but he was an even bigger build and taller.
sniper said:
The funny thing is with the tall riders like Froome. Wiggins and Andy Schleck you look at their legs and wonder where the power comes from at all. There just doesn't seem to be much muscle there at all. You compare them to Armstrong or Ullrich and the differences are obvious. Neither of those two were short either. No doubt Evans did stand out in the mountains even compared to other short riders like Cunego and Leipheimer. Compared to other climbers Evans almost looked like a sprinter. The stop start attacks in the mountains were his achilles heal, the lighter pure climbers and their accelerations were too much for him and it usually ended up as damage control for Evans and minimizing his losses. It's amazing he did as well as he did considering some of the jockeys he was riding against. But his weight definitely helped him in the TT and also in the colder weather. Vino was similar but he was an even bigger build and taller.
Re:
Obviously the motor. There's no way you can beat riders on motors without a motor yourself.sniper said:
Was it Ferrari who recommended Armstrong go linebacker? Seems like an 'old era' approach. It must have contributed to Evans' huge anaerobic capacity though which he can pretty much owe for every result of his so it was the way to go. Someone his build was never going to win in a race to the bottom cutting weight.
Whether or not there were enhancers to help build the strength is kind of irrelevant.
Whether or not there were enhancers to help build the strength is kind of irrelevant.
Agreed.
This is the aicar and motor era, both of which correlate favourably with being skinny without losing power.
Evans predates that era, although his 2011 win falls directly in it.
(That's just an observation btw, not a point or argument)
This is the aicar and motor era, both of which correlate favourably with being skinny without losing power.
Evans predates that era, although his 2011 win falls directly in it.
(That's just an observation btw, not a point or argument)
- Jan 27, 2010
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Re:
Sorry about the image link malfunction
Not sure what any of these images or potential body transformations mean but here is a short pictorial collection:
This image is comical...if by association to the rubbish spawn by Lance's crew...Cadel is guilty.
http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ffximage/2008/07/26/cadel_muscles_470,0.jpg
MTB early images 1 and 2
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi1uIKPm8nRAhUG0oMKHathC9EQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcyclingtips.com%2F2015%2F02%2Fphoto-gallery-the-long-and-distinguished-career-of-cadel-evans%2F&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
Early Saeco days
https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/11/WATSON_00002133-007-cropped.jpg
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjduui2m8nRAhXExYMKHexjAgcQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc.net.au%2Fnews%2F2014-09-26%2Fcadel-evans-announces-retirement%2F5770404&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjm1NXEmsnRAhVG7YMKHfLzCtEQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fsjm9%2Fcadel-evans%2F&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwih65LXmsnRAhXK8YMKHf5oCxMQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCadel_Evans&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
This thrid image...I remember posters ripping a certain former rider for being thick and fat
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi3jKzkmsnRAhVm4IMKHdMqANkQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcycling-passion.com%2Fcomplete-list-uci-elite-men-road-race-world-champions%2Fcadel-evans-uci-world-champion-2009%2F&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2012/07/16/1226426/762539-evans.jpg
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_k47KncnRAhVB_4MKHR6dBZgQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcyclingtips.com%2F2014%2F07%2Fmark-gunter-an-inside-view-of-photography-at-the-tour-de-france%2F&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
sniper said:
Sorry about the image link malfunction
Not sure what any of these images or potential body transformations mean but here is a short pictorial collection:
This image is comical...if by association to the rubbish spawn by Lance's crew...Cadel is guilty.
http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ffximage/2008/07/26/cadel_muscles_470,0.jpg
MTB early images 1 and 2
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi1uIKPm8nRAhUG0oMKHathC9EQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcyclingtips.com%2F2015%2F02%2Fphoto-gallery-the-long-and-distinguished-career-of-cadel-evans%2F&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
Early Saeco days
https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/11/WATSON_00002133-007-cropped.jpg
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjduui2m8nRAhXExYMKHexjAgcQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc.net.au%2Fnews%2F2014-09-26%2Fcadel-evans-announces-retirement%2F5770404&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjm1NXEmsnRAhVG7YMKHfLzCtEQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fsjm9%2Fcadel-evans%2F&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwih65LXmsnRAhXK8YMKHf5oCxMQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCadel_Evans&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
This thrid image...I remember posters ripping a certain former rider for being thick and fat
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi3jKzkmsnRAhVm4IMKHdMqANkQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcycling-passion.com%2Fcomplete-list-uci-elite-men-road-race-world-champions%2Fcadel-evans-uci-world-champion-2009%2F&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2012/07/16/1226426/762539-evans.jpg
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_k47KncnRAhVB_4MKHR6dBZgQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcyclingtips.com%2F2014%2F07%2Fmark-gunter-an-inside-view-of-photography-at-the-tour-de-france%2F&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
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