Evans and his meeting with Ferrari?

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May 22, 2010
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I can't get over how much emphasis Cadel puts in his book about being clean. He's either clean, or tempting fate to a degree that makes Lance's antics look humble by comparison and which would be completely unnecessary. Even someone as brash as Lance really just wanted to divert the conversation away from doping. Cadel delves into it. If he's lying like you guys say he is, then he's of very poor character. I understand why riders choose to dope, but not that kind of grandstanding about it. It would be one hell of a diversion for him to take.
 
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Neworld said:
movingtarget said:
Benotti69 said:
delbified said:
Neworld said:
So, a clean Cuddles, was genetically better than all the other genetically gifted riders (they're not us right? They are all champions, best of the best), and was 5% stronger than then, day after day, to finish in the top 3 for more than 6 yrs and even win the TdF? Is that what some people actually still believe? Shocking reality to live that way no?
It's not that outrageous. I don't subscribe to the Anglo riders = Clean, Latin riders = Dirty, but one difference between them is that by all accounts, doping is awash in Euro cycling from the juniors upwards. This helps create a system in those countries where talent selection is distorted from an early point and where the strongest talents are not necessarily getting pro contracts.

I'm not elite but I'm involved enough in amateur road cycling in Australia to have witnessed how some local riders have risen to the World Tour. I firmly believe they are clean - at an absolutely minimum during the journey to the pros. They just didn't need to dope. That is reportedly not the case in some countries like Italy with juniors already doped to the eyeballs.

It's not unreasonable to suspect that some riders at the top are not 'the best of the best', as measured by natural physiological talent. We know Lance was an also-ran before he got on the Ferrari program.

World Champion at 21 an also ran? I dont think so.

I think Armstrong had enough talent to be a pro. He was apparently doping for Triathlons as a teenager, but he was never GT winning material.

No sure how you can judge any riders are clean at junior level. Not sure how anyone can judge any rider at any level as the testing is either non existent, an iq test or ****.

I know that Armstrong was beating senior triathletes as a junior but he was already doping then ? Did he actually admit to doping before his pro career ? I remember reading about his testing results re heart and lungs being off the charts as well at a young age.

Lancy doped early in his teenage career...read some primary reference material. Yes, he was seen doping in High School and while in Triathlons. Lance Admitted to very little, until it was too late and then he still didn't admit to all of it. Don't expect much from him. Now he's trying to start up another business to dig out of the debt, and impending Federal decision coming soon.

Btw, you don't believe that "Lance's Aorta and heart were 5 times bigger than the average man, and his lungs were 'massive' BS do you? PS: no person under 40 has an Aorta greater than 3cm unless they have a connective tissue disorder. There is no anatomical or physiological advantage to having a large Aorta...all BS created by Lance and Tailwind sports etc...to justify his rancid doping. The Heart and lung dilatation is even more laughable. Lungs grow to the size of the person...full stop; and Lance ain't big. He's below average for a man, but above average for a bike racer. Cardiac chambers can enlarge, but if too large becomes inefficient and can teeter on dysmotility. If you want something to enlarge in your heart, the strength and thickness of the LV wall is most important; but again, if too thick becomes dysfunctional. Look it up.

Lance, unlike Cadel, had/has a low VO2Max, and a Low HCT-EPO elevated his low HCT to the acceptable 49.9. The Low HCT allowed him to take is average genetics into the raging drugged racehorse category. Cadel probably had a naturally high VO2, low HCT and supplemented with blood boosting, Test, and HGH like the rest of the dopers he beat.

I remember reading that his heart was larger than average, probably just spin from his media but I think it was also repeated in his first book before it started clogging up second hand book stores and discount stores. I have also read about champion racehorse having larger hearts than normal but then doping is also a problem in that industry. I think it was at the Australian Institute of Sport where Cadel's testing was done. I'm not sure if it was their best result ever but it was very high. Not sure what stage of his career that was done, i think pretty early on. I think he also had some good results at the Mapei institute as well. Looking at the Armstrong that won the World Roads and the Armstrong that won his first Tour well they look like two different riders body shape wise.
 
May 22, 2010
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An enlarged heart is a symptom of systematic endurance training. It's just a muscle like any other. Whether an athlete has a genetically larger than normal heart cannot be measured by simply observing its size at some point in their career, by which time their training would have had an effect.
 
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delbified said:
I can't get over how much emphasis Cadel puts in his book about being clean. He's either clean, or tempting fate to a degree that makes Lance's antics look humble by comparison and which would be completely unnecessary. Even someone as brash as Lance really just wanted to divert the conversation away from doping. Cadel delves into it. If he's lying like you guys say he is, then he's of very poor character. I understand why riders choose to dope, but not that kind of grandstanding about it. It would be one hell of a diversion for him to take.

Well if he is lying to that degree he wouldn't be the first person to claim to be someone and then turn out to be someone completely different. It's a kind of psychosis. That's where the general cycling fan feels so betrayed when the news breaks. Long term cycling fans have needed to be more cynical just to remain fans or they just love the sport too much to let it go completely but Armstrong built an entire myth about his life that hurt a lot of people especially people that saw him as a role model or the comeback kid. It damaged the entire sporting world and also ruined a lot of reputations re his supporters. It will be one of the most infamous sporting stories for many years to come. Evans is no doubt eccentric but he would be a special sort of egomaniac to be writing books like that. I really have to read this book now, my curiousity has been pricked.
 
May 22, 2010
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movingtarget said:
Armstrong built an entire myth about his life that hurt a lot of people especially people that saw him as a role model or the comeback kid.

Evans is no doubt eccentric but he would a special sort of egomaniac to be writing books like that. I really have to read this book now, my curiousity has been pricked.
This is a key factor in why I believe Evans was clean. Armstrong never put that line forward until he was accused of doping. He might have been psychopathic, but even he wasn't brazen enough to proactively try and carve out an image for himself as a model for clean cyclists. He knew he was dirty, and his principal tactic was to get people to stop talking about doping.

I just can't see Evans voluntarily putting himself forward that way as a clean rider, when he could just quietly walk away from the sport with his Tour trophy and avoid digging a bigger hole for himself. Why focus on it? It would be such a ballsy, unnecessary tactic. And unlike Evans, who doesn't court that sort of controversy or want to take the fight forward that way. In his book he talks about deliberately avoiding thinking about others doping, because he didn't want to make excuses for losing to them. That's either a convenient lie, or a plausible reason.

If Evans has decided that offence is the best defence and that making a big deal of his clean riding to cover his doping history is his tactic, then that's not a side of Evans that I've seen previously. It's something that if anyone was to do, Lance would have, but even he didn't have the gall to do that.

For many fans, when Lance started calling for the doping accusations to stop, my impression was most people (the general public with an awareness of Lance and cycling) backed him because they didn't feel he had a case to answer. But as the accusations built up against him, that call looked increasingly like avoiding the issue and just arose suspicions. Point being - if you have no case to answer (and the predominant views here about Evans, right or wrong, are not shared broadly outside of this forum - he's still seen by most as clean), and you're actually guilty, you'd cut your losses and run - surely?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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At some point Cadel bulked up physically the way I only remember it from Andy Hampsten in 1992.
Where the trend was already to loose weight in the mid2000s, Cadel bulked up, going from a tender and lean athlete to an English full back, physically.
I think It it was HGh and steroids (which could also account for his roid rages).
And of course Epo otherwise I don't know how he managed to become a better climber whilst gaining weight.
 
May 22, 2010
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sniper said:
Where the trend was already to loose weight in the mid2000s, Cadel bulked up, going from a tender and lean athlete to an English full back, physically.
Ummm... really? Cadel is one of the tiniest blokes you'll meet. He's not as withered as a Rasmussen or Schleck, but he's nothing like when Armstrong was roid raging. Sorry but I don't think 'bulked up' and 'Cadel' should be in the same sentence.

I haven't been to the Tour in France yet, but I saw Wiggo up close in 2009 here in Melbourne. He remains the skinniest person I've seen in the flesh. That dude was nothing. We know how pros (and Wiggo) get that skinny - steroids that help shed fat while retaining muscle. Cadel has never had that super-withered look.
 
Re: Re:

delbified said:
movingtarget said:
Armstrong built an entire myth about his life that hurt a lot of people especially people that saw him as a role model or the comeback kid.

Evans is no doubt eccentric but he would a special sort of egomaniac to be writing books like that. I really have to read this book now, my curiousity has been pricked.
This is a key factor in why I believe Evans was clean. Armstrong never put that line forward until he was accused of doping. He might have been psychopathic, but even he wasn't brazen enough to proactively try and carve out an image for himself as a model for clean cyclists. He knew he was dirty, and his principal tactic was to get people to stop talking about doping.

I just can't see Evans voluntarily putting himself forward that way as a clean rider, when he could just quietly walk away from the sport with his Tour trophy and avoid digging a bigger hole for himself. Why focus on it? It would be such a ballsy, unnecessary tactic. And unlike Evans, who doesn't court that sort of controversy or want to take the fight forward that way. In his book he talks about deliberately avoiding thinking about others doping, because he didn't want to make excuses for losing to them. That's either a convenient lie, or a plausible reason.

If Evans has decided that offence is the best defence and that making a big deal of his clean riding to cover his doping history is his tactic, then that's not a side of Evans that I've seen previously. It's something that if anyone was to do, Lance would have, but even he didn't have the gall to do that.

For many fans, when Lance started calling for the doping accusations to stop, my impression was most people (the general public with an awareness of Lance and cycling) backed him because they didn't feel he had a case to answer. But as the accusations built up against him, that call looked increasingly like avoiding the issue and just arose suspicions. Point being - if you have no case to answer (and the predominant views here about Evans, right or wrong, are not shared broadly outside of this forum - he's still seen by most as clean), and you're actually guilty, you'd cut your losses and run - surely?

To take the, "I'm not doping" or "I am clean" route is foolhardy, especially for someone like Evans, if you're not wanting someone to dig further... they're challengable statements
Look where it's got Froome n co...
 
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sniper said:
At some point Cadel bulked up physically the way I only remember it from Andy Hampsten in 1992.
Where the trend was already to loose weight in the mid2000s, Cadel bulked up, going from a tender and lean athlete to an English full back, physically.
I think It it was HGh and steroids (which could also account for his roid rages).
And of course Epo otherwise I don't know how he managed to become a better climber whilst gaining weight.

Evans is only 174 cm's. When he won the Tour of Tasmania and comparing his body then to his first few Tours the difference is marked. But how many 19 year old's retain their body shape especially after years of training and racing. Look at McEwen even as a new pro sprinter he was tiny compared to later in his career where the thighs and forearms were noticeably larger. Ewan is also tiny, see how he is in five years or more. Conversely it was also noticeable that some riders that doped pretty much always had the same body shape maybe because they always doped, i don't know. The so called roid rages probably had more to do with the media frenzy and people tapping him on an injured shoulder after a stage. Evans never hid his distaste for dealing with the media and even late in his career he always looked uncomfortable. He just hated being in the spotlight. I just think he is a true introvert and mostly would prefer to be on his own although sometimes he would come out of his shell. When he was talking about the racing he seemed fine but hated talking about himself and his private life. He couldn't even accept a compliment without looking like he wanted to jump out the window, some thought he was just a sour human being or maybe it was because he was shy and more humble than people thought.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Oct 16, 2010
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^That didn't quite work.
Anyhow,
I do think he bulked up more than most other cyclists of his time.
 
May 22, 2010
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sniper said:
^That didn't quite work.
Anyhow,
I do think he bulked up more than most other cyclists of his time.
That looks like just body shape changing with age. People call me skinny at 40+ but the difference from when I was 19 is night and day. You can keep the weight off (well I couldn't) but your shape changes.

There's nothing in that photo (BMC) that screams steroids to me. Which proves precisely nothing either way.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Show me another cyclist from his generation who both (a) bulked up like that and (b) climbed with the best.
My guess is you can't.
 
May 22, 2010
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sniper said:
Show me another cyclist from his generation who both (a) bulked up like that and (b) climbed with the best.
My guess is you can't.
I just can't see how he's bulked up. Anyway, he never really climbed with the best. He hung on in the mountains for dear life, then relied on his TT (as per 2011 Tour) to make up time.

This stuff is not evidence. When do we start discussing his bum-chin? This stuff is out there on the fringes.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Agreed it's not evidence.
But we discuss Froome's and Wiggins weightloss in relation to doping. Similarly we can discuss Hampstens and Cadels bulking up in the context of doping. We do it with Gareth Bale and C Ronaldo, too.

He was always a GT contender so needed to climb with the best. The question is why did he bulk up where others of his time preferred to bulk down.

For a sprinter it makes sense, for a GC rider less so.

The question is how did he compensate for being relatively bulky?
Most likely with rampant o2 vector doping and at least in 2011 possibly also with a motor.
 
Re:

sniper said:
Agreed it's not evidence.
But we discuss Froome's and Wiggins weightloss in relation to doping. Similarly we can discuss Hampstens and Cadels bulking up in the context of doping. We do it with Gareth Bale and C Ronaldo, too.

He was always a GT contender so needed to climb with the best. The question is why did he bulk up where others of his time preferred to bulk down.

For a sprinter it makes sense, for a GC rider less so.

The question is how did he compensate for being relatively bulky?
Most likely with rampant o2 vector doping and at least in 2011 possibly also with a motor.

The funny thing is with the tall riders like Froome. Wiggins and Andy Schleck you look at their legs and wonder where the power comes from at all. There just doesn't seem to be much muscle there at all. You compare them to Armstrong or Ullrich and the differences are obvious. Neither of those two were short either. No doubt Evans did stand out in the mountains even compared to other short riders like Cunego and Leipheimer. Compared to other climbers Evans almost looked like a sprinter. The stop start attacks in the mountains were his achilles heal, the lighter pure climbers and their accelerations were too much for him and it usually ended up as damage control for Evans and minimizing his losses. It's amazing he did as well as he did considering some of the jockeys he was riding against. But his weight definitely helped him in the TT and also in the colder weather. Vino was similar but he was an even bigger build and taller.
 
May 22, 2010
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sniper said:
The question is how did he compensate for being relatively bulky?
Most likely with rampant o2 vector doping and at least in 2011 possibly also with a motor.
Obviously the motor. There's no way you can beat riders on motors without a motor yourself.
 
Was it Ferrari who recommended Armstrong go linebacker? Seems like an 'old era' approach. It must have contributed to Evans' huge anaerobic capacity though which he can pretty much owe for every result of his so it was the way to go. Someone his build was never going to win in a race to the bottom cutting weight.

Whether or not there were enhancers to help build the strength is kind of irrelevant.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Agreed.

This is the aicar and motor era, both of which correlate favourably with being skinny without losing power.
Evans predates that era, although his 2011 win falls directly in it.
(That's just an observation btw, not a point or argument)
 
Jan 27, 2010
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sniper said:
Agreed.

This is the aicar and motor era, both of which correlate favourably with being skinny without losing power.
Evans predates that era, although his 2011 win falls directly in it.
(That's just an observation btw, not a point or argument)

Sorry about the image link malfunction
Not sure what any of these images or potential body transformations mean but here is a short pictorial collection:

This image is comical...if by association to the rubbish spawn by Lance's crew...Cadel is guilty.
http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ffximage/2008/07/26/cadel_muscles_470,0.jpg


MTB early images 1 and 2
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi1uIKPm8nRAhUG0oMKHathC9EQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcyclingtips.com%2F2015%2F02%2Fphoto-gallery-the-long-and-distinguished-career-of-cadel-evans%2F&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817

Early Saeco days
https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/11/WATSON_00002133-007-cropped.jpg

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjduui2m8nRAhXExYMKHexjAgcQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc.net.au%2Fnews%2F2014-09-26%2Fcadel-evans-announces-retirement%2F5770404&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjm1NXEmsnRAhVG7YMKHfLzCtEQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fsjm9%2Fcadel-evans%2F&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwih65LXmsnRAhXK8YMKHf5oCxMQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCadel_Evans&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817

This thrid image...I remember posters ripping a certain former rider for being thick and fat
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi3jKzkmsnRAhVm4IMKHdMqANkQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcycling-passion.com%2Fcomplete-list-uci-elite-men-road-race-world-champions%2Fcadel-evans-uci-world-champion-2009%2F&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2012/07/16/1226426/762539-evans.jpg

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_k47KncnRAhVB_4MKHR6dBZgQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcyclingtips.com%2F2014%2F07%2Fmark-gunter-an-inside-view-of-photography-at-the-tour-de-france%2F&psig=AFQjCNFECOWZQV5E7oYBI3w-l8mQNwzwPg&ust=1484743453104817
 
Jan 27, 2010
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BMC

For me, the BMC images appear discordant with his former body type.
Bulky
Muscluar
Cadel

BMC