Evans wins worlds...what was he on?

[Skip Madness]

xenophobes are people that are afraid of foreigners, that is clearly not me.

As well as being afraid of foreigners, it also means having an irrational dislike of foreigners. But you knew that. And you do have an irrational dislike of some foreigners - Italians. Saying you get on with other foreigners therefore you're not xenophobic would be like a racist saying, "Disliking black people doesn't make me racist since I get on fine with whites, chinese, south Asians and all other races."

Again I have been to Italy many times I have met and become friends and have had good experiences with italians, but bad experiences tend to stick with you longer than good experiences.

I've had bad experiences with foreigners too, I don't use them to generalise about their entire nationality.

I was called racist for calling italians w*#@ which is not looked upon racist in most communities of Oz. I never said i disliked italians and i get hounded. Franciep10 says he dislikes Italians which is worse than my comment as he is insulting them is far worse than what i said.

I'm not sure what word "w*#@" is, but if it's the one I think it is you need to be careful. Its use may be innocent in Australia (I'm not really familiar with it in that context), but certainly in Britain it is considered very racist.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think that him winning the WC makes him suspicious, but his consistent results in GT's does make the cynic in me wonder.

Makes you wonder what? Do you think his consistency in GT's indicates doping? I'm confused what you mean here...

I'd say consistency/gradual career progression shows a clean(er) rider compared to someone doing something extraordinary, like say, Kohl..

 

[Ferminal]

As well as being afraid of foreigners, it also means having an irrational dislike of foreigners. But you knew that. And you do have an irrational dislike of some foreigners - Italians. Saying you get on with other foreigners therefore you're not xenophobic would be like a racist saying, "Disliking black people doesn't make me racist since I get on fine with whites, chinese, south Asians and all other races."

I've had bad experiences with foreigners too, I don't use them to generalise about their entire nationality.

I'm not sure what word "w*#@" is, but if it's the one I think it is you need to be careful. Its use may be innocent in Australia (I'm not really familiar with it in that context), but certainly in Britain it is considered very racist.

Yeh... and, take it to PM, this is the clinic.

 

[Cobber]

As well as being afraid of foreigners, it also means having an irrational dislike of foreigners. But you knew that. And you do have an irrational dislike of some foreigners - Italians. Saying you get on with other foreigners therefore you're not xenophobic would be like a racist saying, "Disliking black people doesn't make me racist since I get on fine with whites, chinese, south Asians and all other races."

I've had bad experiences with foreigners too, I don't use them to generalise about their entire nationality.

I'm not sure what word "w*#@" is, but if it's the one I think it is you need to be careful. Its use may be innocent in Australia (I'm not really familiar with it in that context), but certainly in Britain it is considered very racist.

franciep10 shared a bad personal experience with an Italian and said, somewhat in jest, that he doesn't like Italians because of that. Coming out and calling him a racist or xenophobe because he said is just wrong, especially since you don't know exactly how he meant the statement. If he said he didn't like Italians for some other more general reason, and not for a really bad personal reason, you might have a point. Regardless, this thread is not about that so why don't you just let it go. Nobody really cares.....

Edit: I would also add that franciep10 has been around here a long time and contributed a lot of good posts. You have not, and so coming on here and insulting him just makes it look like you are trying to stir up trouble. If you want everyone to take you seriously, how about playing nice?

 

[franciep10]

Thank you cobber what I said might have been wrong but let's just move on and get back on topic to badmouthing cadel

 

[auscyclefan94]

franciep10 shared a bad personal experience with an Italian and said, somewhat in jest, that he doesn't like Italians because of that. Coming out and calling him a racist or xenophobe because he said is just wrong, especially since you don't know exactly how he meant the statement. If he said he didn't like Italians for some other more general reason, and not for a really bad personal reason, you might have a point. Regardless, this thread is not about that so why don't you just let it go. Nobody really cares.....

Edit: I would also add that franciep10 has been around here a long time and contributed a lot of good posts. You have not, and so coming on here and insulting him just makes it look like you are trying to stir up trouble. If you want everyone to take you seriously, how about playing nice?

Cobber, i was called racist for comment which was taken out of context. Everyone hounded me.

 

[Skip Madness]

franciep10 shared a bad personal experience with an Italian and said, somewhat in jest, that he doesn't like Italians because of that. Coming out and calling him a racist or xenophobe because he said is just wrong, especially since you don't know exactly how he meant the statement. If he said he didn't like Italians for some other more general reason, and not for a really bad personal reason, you might have a point.

If he doesn't really mean it then he hasn't made that clear, to me at least. And general reasons or personal reasons make not a shred of difference to it being wrong. However I am happy to take it to private message/drop it in the interests of letting the thread get back on track. Except for this bit...

I would also add that franciep10 has been around here a long time and contributed a lot of good posts. You have not, and so coming on here and insulting him just makes it look like you are trying to stir up trouble. If you want everyone to take you seriously, how about playing nice?

That's cliquey bullshít. The number of posts you've made doesn't make a difference. I have not come on here and insulted him, I have come on here, made a few posts here and there and decided that when I saw what I regard as a xenophobic remark I should take someone to task on it, exactly the same as when I saw sexist remarks in another thread. Playing nice also involves not making daft generalisations, so stop trying to make one rule for him and another for me.

Anyway, I'm aware that this looks like I'm trying to get the last word in so as I said before anything else on this thread I'll take to private message.

Edit: auscyclefan94, you're obviously sore (and sorry) about it but please understand why people would have been upset by your comment - to a lot of people it's one of the worst things you can call someone.

 

[Cobber]

That's cliquey bullshít. The number of posts you've made doesn't make a difference. I have not come on here and insulted him, I have come on here, made a few posts here and there and decided that when I saw what I regard as a xenophobic remark I should take someone to task on it, exactly the same as when I saw sexist remarks in another thread. Playing nice also involves not making daft generalisations, so stop trying to make one rule for him and another for me.

What I meant was that a lot of us know franciep10 through his posts, and to my knowledge he has never said anything racist or xenophobic until the off the cuff remark he made that you took exemption to. Thus, those people that have been active on these forums for a long time might interpret his statement differently from you. Furthermore, he often complements Italian riders when they win races, so I think if he was truly racist, it would have become apparent by now.

The edit on my post was a friendly piece of advice, I guess. I agree the number of posts means nothing, but the quality of posts means everything on an online forum. Our only indication of someone as a person is by what they post. If you want the majority of people on here to take you seriously, you shouldn't attack well-liked contributers. Otherwise people will just put you on ignore. Maybe it is cliquey, but that's life!

 

[franciep10]

Cobber, i was called racist for comment which was taken out of context. Everyone hounded me.

I was actually trying to take some heat off of you, by making that comment. What post were you called a racist for

 

[Escarabajo]

What I meant was that a lot of us know franciep10 through his posts, and to my knowledge he has never said anything racist or xenophobic until the off the cuff remark he made that you took exemption to. Thus, those people that have been active on these forums for a long time might interpret his statement differently from you. Furthermore, he often complements Italian riders when they win races, so I think if he was truly racist, it would have become apparent by now.

The edit on my post was a friendly piece of advice, I guess. I agree the number of posts means nothing, but the quality of posts means everything on an online forum. Our only indication of someone as a person is by what they post. If you want the majority of people on here to take you seriously, you shouldn't attack well-liked contributers. Otherwise people will just put you on ignore. Maybe it is cliquey, but that's life!

+1.

Franciep seems to me like one of the nicest persons in this forum. Honestly, I thought he was joking because it was coming from him. I probably would have reacted different coming from a different person.

Let's move on.
Thanks.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

I'm interested in the drag of light riders, who perform well in TT's like Evans / Contador....and what that might say about their preparation methods. Using Escarabajo's rough empirical relationship for area as a function of height and weight, I estimate that a 63kg rider would need an upper limit of 7% greater power to weight ratio*, to maintain the same speed as an 80kg rider. Unless they had a better Cd or more aerodynamic position to further reduce area. I notice that you are involved with wind tunnels. Are you able to give us any info on the observed ranges of Cd and A for pros, in TT or normal racing positions, without compromising client confidentiality?

* 7% is an upper limit because I haven't scaled down the rolling resistance etc for the lighter rider. I also haven't got a good handle of the magnitude of power:weight ratio scaling with total mass, but don't think it's anything like 7%.

Off topic: this is the ausycleanfan94 post in question http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=89621&highlight=italians+banning#post89621

 

[PACONi]

Makes you wonder what? Do you think his consistency in GT's indicates doping? I'm confused what you mean here...

I'd say consistency/gradual career progression shows a clean(er) rider compared to someone doing something extraordinary, like say, Kohl..

Thats my point. Being cleaner doesn't make him clean. Not that I'm saying he's doping in any form (ie O2 boosters, recovery etc). And yeah he's shown a steady improvement throughout his career that would imply he's not suddenly jumped on a program like your example, Kohl.

But, given that he's beaten the likes of Kohl, Valverde etc in GT's and other stage races and these guys are proven dopers, well it just makes me wonder. Its almost guilt by association, and thats not fair. But thats the state of the sport now. Success breeds suspicion!

I want to believe he's clean, not just cleaner. But its hard to think that given that its pro cycling we're talking about.

 

[auscyclefan94]

If he doesn't really mean it then he hasn't made that clear, to me at least. And general reasons or personal reasons make not a shred of difference to it being wrong. However I am happy to take it to private message/drop it in the interests of letting the thread get back on track. Except for this bit...

That's cliquey bullshít. The number of posts you've made doesn't make a difference. I have not come on here and insulted him, I have come on here, made a few posts here and there and decided that when I saw what I regard as a xenophobic remark I should take someone to task on it, exactly the same as when I saw sexist remarks in another thread. Playing nice also involves not making daft generalisations, so stop trying to make one rule for him and another for me.

Anyway, I'm aware that this looks like I'm trying to get the last word in so as I said before anything else on this thread I'll take to private message.

Edit: auscyclefan94, you're obviously sore (and sorry) about it but please understand why people would have been upset by your comment - to a lot of people it's one of the worst things you can call someone.

Yes, but it was taken out of context. It was a general comment not meant to hurt anyone. for the billionth time, I'm sorry. Can we please move on?

 

[italiano]

I'm interested in the drag of light riders, who perform well in TT's like Evans / Contador....and what that might say about their preparation methods. Using Escarabajo's rough empirical relationship for area as a function of height and weight, I estimate that a 63kg rider would need an upper limit of 7% greater power to weight ratio*, to maintain the same speed. Unless they had a better Cd or more aerodynamic position to further reduce area. I notice that you are involved with wind tunnels. Are you able to give us any info on the observed ranges of Cd and A for pros, in TT or normal racing positions, without compromising client confidentiality?

* 7% is an upper limit because I haven't scaled down the rolling resistance etc for the lighter rider. I also haven't got a good handle of the magnitude of power:weight ratio scaling with total mass, but don't think it's anything like 7%.

Off topic: this is the ausycleanfan94 post in question http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=89621&highlight=italians+banning#post89621

your using what variables? Is this from Television or Internet coverage?

 

[auscyclefan94]

I'm interested in the drag of light riders, who perform well in TT's like Evans / Contador....and what that might say about their preparation methods. Using Escarabajo's rough empirical relationship for area as a function of height and weight, I estimate that a 63kg rider would need an upper limit of 7% greater power to weight ratio*, to maintain the same speed. Unless they had a better Cd or more aerodynamic position to further reduce area. I notice that you are involved with wind tunnels. Are you able to give us any info on the observed ranges of Cd and A for pros, in TT or normal racing positions, without compromising client confidentiality?

* 7% is an upper limit because I haven't scaled down the rolling resistance etc for the lighter rider. I also haven't got a good handle of the magnitude of power:weight ratio scaling with total mass, but don't think it's anything like 7%.

Off topic: this is the ausycleanfan94 post in question http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=89621&highlight=italians+banning#post89621

yes you really have to drag out the issue don't you?

 

[Escarabajo]

I'm interested in the drag of light riders, who perform well in TT's like Evans / Contador....and what that might say about their preparation methods....

I think this information is confidential. And every rider has a unique value calculated from the wind tunnels that they used. We are only left with what is published. We can only guess estimate from looking at their position and comparing it to riders that have published the data before. there are also some values out there from some specific papers but you have to pay for the information.

One way of calculating the CdA is during training several times and comparing it with the power tab. I guess this is the way that some riders use when they can not afford the tunnel.

This are the numbers that I had originally from a book:
Drag Factors
-------------------------CD-----Area--------CDA
-----------------------------------m2------------
Vertical commuter--1.10----0.51--------0.56
Climbing------------0.99----0.44--------0.43
Racing--------------0.88-----0.36--------0.32
TT-------------------0.69-----0.36--------0.25
Drafting------------0.50-----0.36--------0.18

These are the numbers from a paper:

Other Drag Factors
-------------------------CD-----Area--------CDA
-----------------------------------m2------------
Vertical commuter--1.15----0.55--------0.632
Climbing------------1.00----0.40--------0.40
Racing--------------0.88-----0.32--------0.282
TT-------------------0.69-----0.32--------0.221
Drafting------------0.50-----0.32--------0.160
Moser Bike---------0.51-----0.42-------0.214

Frost Values, CdA:
Boardman-------------------------------0.180
Indurain:------------------------------0.24-0.25
Estimated for Cancellara------------0.23-0.24.

Actually mine estimated for Cancellara with the basic formula was around 0.25. But just by looking at his position it looks like Frost numbers are better for him.

Here is a link given by Frost. There are some basic information about positioning:
http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/pareto.htm

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

your using what variables? Is this from Television or Internet coverage?

Hi RHitaliano, I was just comparing a hypothetical 63kg rider with an 80kg rider using equations Escarabajo posted on this forum - some of which he referenced to credible sources.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

I think this information is confidential. url]http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/pareto.htm[/url]

Yep - that's why I asked if he could give "any info on the observed ranges of Cd and A for pros... without compromising client confidentiality?" not data on specific individuals.

Thanks for the link though - didn't notice it earlier.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I think this information is confidential. And every rider has a unique value calculated from the wind tunnels that they used. We are only left with what is published. We can only guess estimate from looking at their position and comparing it to riders that have published the data before. there are also some values out there from some specific papers but you have to pay for the information.

One way of calculating the CdA is during training several times and comparing it with the power tab. I guess this is the way that some riders use when they can not afford the tunnel.

This are the numbers that I had originally from a book:
Drag Factors
-------------------------CD-----Area--------CDA
-----------------------------------m2------------
Vertical commuter--1.10----0.51--------0.56
Climbing------------0.99----0.44--------0.43
Racing--------------0.88-----0.36--------0.32
TT-------------------0.69-----0.36--------0.25
Drafting------------0.50-----0.36--------0.18

These are the numbers from a paper:

Other Drag Factors
-------------------------CD-----Area--------CDA
-----------------------------------m2------------
Vertical commuter--1.15----0.55--------0.632
Climbing------------1.00----0.40--------0.40
Racing--------------0.88-----0.32--------0.282
TT-------------------0.69-----0.32--------0.221
Drafting------------0.50-----0.32--------0.160
Moser Bike---------0.51-----0.42-------0.214

Frost Values, CdA:
Boardman-------------------------------0.180
Indurain:------------------------------0.24-0.25
Estimated for Cancellara------------0.23-0.24.

Actually mine estimated for Cancellara with the basic formula was around 0.25. But just by looking at his position it looks like Frost numbers are better for him.

Here is a link given by Frost. There are some basic information about positioning:
http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/pareto.htm

I am intersted to know what that all is in english and what it all means? i
Thanks

 

[italiano]

Hi RHitaliano, I was just comparing a hypothetical 63kg rider with an 80kg rider using equations Escarabajo posted on this forum - some of which he referenced to credible sources.

So the comparisons are based on actual downloaded SRM powermeter data for specific cyclist? Not watching the television?

 

[ChrisE]

So the comparisons are based on actual downloaded SRM powermeter data for specific cyclist? Not watching the television?

Don't underestimate the power of TV when calculating VAM. There was an interesting discussion between 2 characters awhile back named RHitalian and logical cranium who swear by this technique. Even so, I think they disagreed who was better at it. Too bad, but I think they got banned for some reason. One claimed he did other tests on altitude tents and the effects of alcohol on performance. The other demonstrated the validity of LA's performance and Carmichael's ability as a coach to call Ferrari when he got confused.

I think I watch cycling even has you confused with that one since he referred to you that way.

Our two banned buddies may be trumped by a very intelligent individual on another forum though, who claims he can predict future GT placings as well from watching youtube or TV. This person, unfortunately, seems to have a chemical imbalance and doesn't seem as sane as the two that got banned here.....

 

[Hugh Januss]

I think I watch cycling even has you confused with that one since he referred to you that way.

I don't believe there is any confusion here.

 

[Escarabajo]

Yep - that's why I asked if he could give "any info on the observed ranges of Cd and A for pros... without compromising client confidentiality?" not data on specific individuals.

Thanks for the link though - didn't notice it earlier.

Here I found another source for the frontal area calculation and a "Back Calculation" of the drag coefficient. That second one has to be done by Physical Training on a track.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ms...#v=onepage&q=drag coefficient bicycle&f=false