Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Rackham]

Jonathan Vaughters has posted about road race world championship problems (namely the fact it's raced by national teams):

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1441128373195993094

View: https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/1441128373195993094


It's a double edged sword, i.e. although national teams & split loyalties add some charm, it can also get really messy & ugly (& it's also unfair, due to reasons such as team size disparity).

 

[Netserk]

Vaughters is an opportunist with no affection for the legacy of the sport. What the hell is meant by "dansk strong"?

And Roglič should of course ride for his country (either helping Mohorič or ride in a free role), he has a far too elevated status to ride as a mercenary at the WC. He is no Eisel. The country rode for him in Innsbruck (at least until his crash), so it would be undignified not to reciprocate if asked to.

 

[Monte Serra]

It's a double edged sword, i.e. although national teams & split loyalties add some charm, it can also get really messy & ugly (& it's also unfair, due to reasons such as team size disparity).

Sports is unfair anyway. Pro teams also have widely different budgets. The fun of the World's is that it redraws the loyalties of the riders for one day, and the potential conflicts of interest make it so intriguing. If it would be contested by world tour teams, it would be much more like any other one-day race.

And as Vaughters is probably also concerned with the marketability of the sport, I would hazard a guess that the World's is one of the most attractive races for the average spectator, just because it is contested between countries. For the uninitiated a contest between Italy, Belgium and Denmark is far more interesting than a race between Ineos, Jumbo and Quickstep.

 

[SafeBet]

Vaughters is an opportunist with no affection for the legacy of the sport. What the hell is meant by "dansk strong"?

And Roglič should of course ride for his country (either helping Mohorič or ride in a free role), he has a far too elevated status to ride as a mercenary at the WC. He is no Eisel. The country rode for him in Innsbruck (at least until his crash), so it would be undignified not to reciprocate if asked to.

Imola too?

 

[Netserk]

Imola too?

Yeah, I just had a brainfart and only thought of Innsbruck.

 

[Rackham]

I don't mind the national teams, I don't mind the mess caused by split loyalties. It's part of the race's charm, i.e. even L'Equipe has an article today in which they talk about the "greatest betrayals" of the world championships: Les plus grandes trahisons au sein d'une même équipe lors des Championnats du monde - L'Équipe (lequipe.fr)

That's partly why people turn on the TV to watch this stuff, i.e. it's like an end of season prom night where one huge prize is up for grabs & anything goes to get it, including screwing over a teammate who is nothing of the sort for 99% of the rest of the cycling season.

I only ask for the people who also like this race to not lose their minds & go total bananas when sh*t hits the fan in a national team because as "supporters" they're afflicted with some misplaced nationalism which has no place in the sport. Or they go crazy because they think xyz rider "owes" either their national teammates or their pro team teammates something in the race.

I also find it weird to suggest Primoz Roglic should work for riders who're (no offense) not exactly better than he is (an understatement). I say to the people out there who's so obsessed with the idea of a Slovenian winning the WC RR to the point they might actually want Roglic to work for Mohoric, I think you'd find more fulfilment in football or other super chauvinistic sports. This race (& sport) is different (or at least should be).

 

[rokovski]

If WvA needs Roglics help, he doesn't deserves to win RR. I hope someone "Ganna" again those Belgians.

 

[topt]

I saw those quotes & unless there's some sort of bluff involved (like an attempt to make the rest of the peloton disregard Pogacar & Roglic as threats), it was like Mohoric trying to convince his own teammates to ride for him.

But the charm of the world championship also includes the fact sponsor team loyalties play a role. And there's just no way Roglic will ride against Wout van Aert to make Mohoric become world champion.

if that is really true than it sucks

 

[johnymax]

I don't mind the national teams, I don't mind the mess caused by split loyalties. It's part of the race's charm, i.e. even L'Equipe has an article today in which they talk about the "greatest betrayals" of the world championships: Les plus grandes trahisons au sein d'une même équipe lors des Championnats du monde - L'Équipe (lequipe.fr)

That's partly why people turn on the TV to watch this stuff, i.e. it's like an end of season prom night where one huge prize is up for grabs & anything goes to get it, including screwing over a teammate who is nothing of the sort for 99% of the rest of the cycling season.

I only ask for the people who also like this race to not lose their minds & go total bananas when sh*t hits the fan in a national team because as "supporters" they're afflicted with some misplaced nationalism which has no place in the sport. Or they go crazy because they think xyz rider "owes" either their national teammates or their pro team teammates something in the race.

I also find it weird to suggest Primoz Roglic should work for riders who're (no offense) not exactly better than he is (an understatement). I say to the people out there who's so obsessed with the idea of a Slovenian winning the WC RR to the point they might actually want Roglic to work for Mohoric, I think you'd find more fulfilment in football or other super chauvinistic sports. This race (& sport) is different (or at least should be).

You are trying too hard searching for reasons IMO. In the end of the day it's very simple. Roglič in this race is riding for the Slovenian National Team. Every member of that team has the obligation to ride for the best result possible for that team. It doesn't matter who owns what to who. If there's a situation in the race where Mohorič is alone at the front and from the chasing group behind Van Aert attacks and only Roglič can follow, Primož has to only follow wheels and doesn't need to give Wout turns.

In races where Roglič races as a member of Team Jumbo Visma it's the other way around. He has to ride the way that brings the best possible result to his team and that would be collaborating with Wout and racing against Mohorič, despite coming from the same country.

Also...as I've said. Slovenia has 1a, 1b and 1c options. The 3 of them won't work for nobody (only if on the day of the race somebody of the three won't feel ok), but they'll work WITH each other. If one of them is in a front group of attackers, the other two will just follow the attacks from the chasing group. And that's how it's supposed to be. Then a week later in the Italian fall classics, they'll be rivals again racing against each other.

 

[bNator]

White theoretically this has a potential for great discussion, in reality I don’t see a scenario where Roglic will need to choose for helping Mohoric by screwing Wout. This is due to the fact that mohoric simply isn’t one of the strongest guys and his only chance to win is a long range attack. It‘s not like Mohoric is the big favourite with a strong finish while Wout will look for opportunities with Roglic smashing his dreams of a long range attack. It’s the other way around. So the only thing Pogacar and Roglic can do to help Mohoric is helping control the breaks up to a point where Mohoric can go on a long range attack.

this is the reason I find the whole “leader Mohoric” a bit silly tbh. Up to the point where I‘m starting to doubt it‘s actually true...

 

[bNator]

You are trying too hard searching for reasons IMO. In the end of the day it's very simple. Roglič in this race is riding for the Slovenian National Team. Every member of that team has the obligation to ride for the best result possible for that team. It doesn't matter who owns what to who. If there's a situation in the race where Mohorič is alone at the front and from the chasing group behind Van Aert attacks and only Roglič can follow, Primož has to only follow wheels and doesn't need to give Wout turns.

In races where Roglič races as a member of Team Jumbo Visma it's the other way around. He has to ride the way that brings the best possible result to his team and that would be collaborating with Wout and racing against Mohorič, despite coming from the same country.

Also...as I've said. Slovenia has 1a, 1b and 1c options. The 3 of them won't work for nobody (only if on the day of the race somebody of the three won't feel ok), but they'll work WITH each other. If one of them is in a front group of attackers, the other two will just follow the attacks from the chasing group. And that's how it's supposed to be. Then a week later in the Italian fall classics, they'll be rivals again racing against each other.

With regards to my previous post - this is the possible situation. In this case I don’t think Roglic would even think about helping Wout. And if he did, his reputation would certainly be destroyed...

But staying behind Wouts wheel in this case would not mean actually helping Mohoric. It just means not helping Wout...

 

[Red Rick]

They're simply gonna have to get themselves into an attacking group and hope for the best from that. This is the same for Pogacar, Roglic and Mohoric. None of them should get dropped before the final circuit anyway, but they shouldn't really have to ride for each other and instead make sure one of them is in every move or they're ***.

 

[johnymax]

With regards to my previous post - this is the possible situation. In this case I don’t think Roglic would even think about helping Wout. And if he did, his reputation would certainly be destroyed...

But staying behind Wouts wheel in this case would not mean actually helping Mohoric. It just means not helping Wout...

Of course it means helping Mohorič...by disrupting the chase.

 

[SafeBet]

You are trying too hard searching for reasons IMO. In the end of the day it's very simple. Roglič in this race is riding for the Slovenian National Team. Every member of that team has the obligation to ride for the best result possible for that team. It doesn't matter who owns what to who. If there's a situation in the race where Mohorič is alone at the front and from the chasing group behind Van Aert attacks and only Roglič can follow, Primož has to only follow wheels and doesn't need to give Wout turns.

In races where Roglič races as a member of Team Jumbo Visma it's the other way around. He has to ride the way that brings the best possible result to his team and that would be collaborating with Wout and racing against Mohorič, despite coming from the same country.

Also...as I've said. Slovenia has 1a, 1b and 1c options. The 3 of them won't work for nobody (only if on the day of the race somebody of the three won't feel ok), but they'll work WITH each other. If one of them is in a front group of attackers, the other two will just follow the attacks from the chasing group. And that's how it's supposed to be. Then a week later in the Italian fall classics, they'll be rivals again racing against each other.

I'm amazed that you even need to explain this but thanks anyway.

 

[Rackham]

You are trying too hard searching for reasons IMO. In the end of the day it's very simple. Roglič in this race is riding for the Slovenian National Team. Every member of that team has the obligation to ride for the best result possible for that team. It doesn't matter who owns what to who. If there's a situation in the race where Mohorič is alone at the front and from the chasing group behind Van Aert attacks and only Roglič can follow, Primož has to only follow wheels and doesn't need to give Wout turns.

I'm amazed that you even need to explain this but thanks anyway.

I think you're all simplifying this situation way, way too much. This isn't a normal "national team" (even the coaches were assembled just after the Olympics in a situation Roglic himself described as "***") & focusing on Mohoric is the easy option, i.e. because he comes across as super nice & he even held up a Roglic sign on the final day of the Tour de France (what's not to like?). But I could remind you guys Tadej Pogacar is also on the team. And following the logic I'm reading, you'd have me believe Roglic would drill it for Tadej & cheer like a fan if he beat WvA on Sunday & became "world champion".

WvA who FYI is racing on home soil in the biggest objective of his career. Do you even remember the number one career objective of Primoz Roglic? Winning the tour de France. For Jumbo-Visma, with Jumbo-Visma & thanks to Jumbo-Visma.

This is one of the reasons the idealized situation you describe @johnymax is exactly that, i.e. an "ideal". In the real world the cycling national teams are not comparable with other national teams (except perhaps in the Olympics where medals are stacked for the nation). It's a "once a year" event in which in this instance, the number one rival rides for the same country & the second major star of Roglic's own pro team (& someone he has known for years now & for all intents & purposes they get along pretty well, i.e. you'll even find pictures of them dressed in Santa outfits at a Jumbo Christmas event a couple of years ago!) rides for the home team on home soil.

So no, this isn't a "Roglic is Slovenian so he'll obviously give it his all for a Slovenian victory" situation & to believe so (& hold Roglic to account based on that assumption & fantasy) is incorrect based on the reality of the race & history of the sport. It's totally unfair for anyone to even begin assigning labels like calling him a "mercenary" (which I read above) if he doesn't ride the way they want. I also won't forget some of the online Slovenian comments before the Olympics TT, i.e. "chauvinists" who didn't care about Primoz Roglic at all & only wanted national glory, so the insults & calls for him to hand his spot over based on his performance in the road race were real. Sure he made them all eat crow by the end of the TT, but I could care less of the opinions of people who only turn on their TV & follow a sport because they've heard their own country has a chance of winning.

And with regards to this world championship road race on Sunday I either expect Roglic to tag along with his teammates & ride somewhat neutrally before placing an attack (if he has the legs) & without deliberately screwing over anyone (because that's not how he rides anyway), or he'll fade away quietly as he did in the Olympics (where once again there was a conflict of interests between Pogacar & WvA).

 

[bNator]

The problem is that cycling is a team sport but the victories are individual. It works as long as domestiques are paid to help but in this case, they are not. The motivation for ”real-life” domestiques to work for their national team leaders is as follows:

1. Showing their domestique qualities may increase their value/appreciation in the domestique market that they are part of.
2. They are never going to win the event anyway so they are not sacrificing anything.

The likes of Remco and Roglic just don’t fit either of the two categories so the only remaining motivation for them to race for their “leaders” (it really sounds funny in Roglic case) is to succumb to pressure and/or satisfy their national fanbase. Roglic is luckily (unlike Remco) not subject to any pressure so it is down to him trying to look good to Slovenians. Which I think he will in pretty much any case except for working for Wout. This would be unacceptable...

Another interesting aspect to point out is that Slovenia’s national coach is Mohoric’s DS so I find it a bit suspicious that Mohoric is all of a sudden a team leader to Pogacar and Roglic. I’m sure they all agreed on this but what I’m trying to say is that I don’t expect Roglic or Pogacar to sacrifice their own chances for Mohoric.

 

[RedheadDane]

The problem is that cycling is a team sport but the victories are individual. It works as long as domestiques are paid to help but in this case, they are not. The motivation for ”real-life” domestiques to work for their national team leaders is as follows:

1. Showing their domestique qualities may increase their value/appreciation in the domestique market that they are part of.
2. They are never going to win the event anyway so they are not sacrificing anything.

What about:

3. They are genuinely friends with the riders they're riding for.

 

[Rackham]

What about:

3. They are genuinely friends with the riders they're riding for.

But that also applies to teammates from their pro team as well (& does occasionally happen in the WC RR). It's pretty evident there's way more politics involved in this event which impacts the how & why stuff happens in the race (i.e. who the sporting directors are as well) & it's also clear this is one of the only races on the calendar (in fact the only one) where team fans dominate the conversation more than the fans of the riders themselves.

I see it France as well, i.e. fuelled by the media & other national concerns, way too many people watching this race on TV couldn't give a damn about their riders & only care about the team result (anyone for the win, basically, insofar as he's French... & when it goes wrong, the insults flow). But in cycling this sort of "I'm a fan of the team first" attitude is pretty much nonexistent the rest of the calendar season.

It's not like football where people will support their national team & also a club. In cycling, we support riders. The individual. And their team is an extension of their own personal goal.

It's why tomorrow's race is a "UFO", i.e. unidentified flying object in the cycling season. It's a one time event with loads of baggage, drama & due to the route, a huge amount of riders competing will believe they have their chances (unlike say a usual stage race, classic or monument where the list of potential winners is usually much smaller & pro teams have a very organized structure with reliable domestiques & leaders).

 

[Blanco]

So no, this isn't a "Roglic is Slovenian so he'll obviously give it his all for a Slovenian victory"

Primoz Roglic is a proud Slovenian, and he loves his country way too much to jeopardize it's chances in any way. So if he has to choose between a teammate and Van Aert, he'll choose a teammate, believe me!

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

If Roglic rides for WVA I'd be more than mildly pissed as his Slovenian teammates. They rode for him in Innsbruck 2018 and Pogacar "sacrifieced" himself in Imola 2020 (sacrificied in brackets because it's a strong word, it was basically a standard have one guy attack to make the other teams chase and have Roglic sit in move), it's not wrong to consider that Mohoric with the year he had is possibly a better option for this parcour.

Either way, he's not gonna work for WVA and I think all the "who's gonna work for who" stuff is a bit overblown anyway. Neither of the Slovenians are the hot favorites, chasing and pacemaking will be down to Belgium. They just have to stay up there and then use their 3 guys to cover individual moves or attack in turns themselves. WC RR is always a bit of a lottery, you sometimes need a bit of luck to end up in the winning move, good thing is unlike Evenepoel Roglic and the others can back themselve in a reasonably reduced bunch sprint.

 

[Rackham]

If Roglic rides for WVA I'd be more than mildly pissed as his Slovenian teammates.

He won't ride for WvA, but I'd bet anything he won't bust his guts to make Pogacar or Mohoric beat WvA & see one them become world champion whilst his JV friend sees his dream destroyed. I think it's pretty obvious.

Primoz Roglic is a proud Slovenian, and he loves his country way too much to jeopardize it's chances in any way. So if he has to choose between a teammate and Van Aert, he'll choose a teammate, believe me!

He already won Slovenia a gold medal at the Olympics. What more should he do? Prostrate himself at the feet of his national team colleagues & swear an oath of fealty? This is one of the collateral problems of this race which I don't like, i.e. talk of "xyz loves his country yada yada yada" is totally over-the-top.

It's just one race & it'll be over very quickly. Then it's back to Lombardia, JV & the battle with UAE.

 

[bNator]

What about:

3. They are genuinely friends with the riders they're riding for.

Ok now you made me look like a capitalist pig… But if we go down the road of irational motivation, then we surely list include jealousy, envy, hatred etc. We’ll never get to the bottom of that…

But yeah - I would assume he is better friends with Wout than Matej probably. But just to be clear - I think there’s no way he rides for Wout.

 

[Rackham]

It also bothers me to see the conversation always seems about Roglic riding for others.

It happened last year when some of the Belgian media went full-nutjob after the road race (i.e. insulting Roglic for not pulling for WvA at the end), and now we see comments from the other side about how he should ride for Mohoric (because xyz reasons, i.e. including recency bias due to Mohoric winning a couple of breakaway stages in the Tour this year).

No one knocks on Tadej Pogacar's door & says "you should ride for xyz in the WC RR because if you don't, we'll call you a mercenary".

It's like being a serial winner means nothing when people let their own hopes & dreams dictate their thinking (national fans, namely, i.e. also people who buy into the theory Mohoric is "better" in this sort of race ergo should be supported... even by Roglic).

 

[Rackham]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1441376545700909056

View: https://twitter.com/richardmoore73/status/1441376545700909056


Stephen Roche predicted Roglic for tomorrow? Good man.

 

[Gargamel35]

Slovenian media is something else. 2 time Tour winner and other races winner and 3 time Vuelta winner and other races winner, basically two of the best cyclists in the world for the last couple years almost don't exist. It's just Mohorič, Mohorič, Mohorič.

Mohorič took care for equipment and man power from Bahrain Merida, Mohorič took care for new boss (from Bahrain Merida), Mohorič is great friends with Pogačar so Pogačar will work for him and others too.

Roglič came late to this Mohorič baby shower party and when asked if he's going to race to win, he said: why not, eh?