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There is no gaurantee Roglic is in the lead, had he been pulled immediately from the Tour. Stage 4 of this Vuelta showed he was flying, but simply met his match in a superior Remco. Then Evenepoel crashed hard and that gave Roglic a margin to make gains. But Mas's superior form on Sierra Nevada prooves Roglic had improved significantly, as the accepted narrative claims, because of a supposed lack of form at the start of the race.
Of course not. Remco’s ITT was remarkable and he looked extremely strong pre-crash and very strong post-crash. Who knows what would have or could have happened; I just was generally arguing that of course every circumstance has an impact with second, third, etc. order effects. And of course if you’re really following the pro-Roglic thread the better starting point would be him not crashing in the Tour. I’m personally disappointed for Roglic but ready to turn the page and watch a (still possibly) generational talent win his first GT. I hope he attacks for a MTF victory.
 
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I don't know what your problem is but it's pretty universally known in pro cycling that 2 weeks preparation is not enough for a Grand Tour bid. Hence why so many people were saying Rogla shouldn't even be starting the Vuelta.

So of course it stands to reason an early retirement in the TdF to heal those wounds would have improved his chances in Spain. The fact he had improved his form towards the end of Vuelta week 2 says a lot in that regard as well.

Rog only stayed in the TdF to help Vingegaard win it. Nothing he did there helped his own season & Jumbo should be very respectful considering his self-sacrifice in the Tour. It's a pretty sh*tty irony that he soldiered on in the Tour riding injured just to help someone else whilst here he has to go home when he's in a fight to win a GT himself.

It's also a bit galling to now read Jumbo saying "it's for his own good" when they didn't really give that sort of health concern mas uch consideration in July.
Clearly JV brought him to the race gauging that his form was adequite enough for the win (and with good reason), indicating, in the end, the Tour crash didn't hinder his performance. To the contrary, riding the Tour likely established a base, which, through early exit, could be built upon for the Vuelta. Stage 4 prooved this, but Evenepoel demonstrated to be, in Roglic's own words, "on a different level," till now at least he added pondering Remco's ability to go the distance. Then Evenepoel crashed hard and only for this did he lose some of his advantage in the Sierra Nevadas. Mas surging ahead of Roglic on Serra Nevada prooves Roglic wasn't getting any better, while Remco was still suffering from the effects of the crash.

In July Roglic was needed in support of Vingegaard, the team leader at the biggest race on the calendar, so he remained until unable to contribute to the greater cause. It's harsh, but there are no niceties in pro cycling.
 
Clearly JV brought him to the race gauging that his form was adequite enough for the win (and with good reason), indicating, in the end, the Tour crash didn't hinder his performance. To the contrary, riding the Tour likely established a base, which, through early exit, could be built upon for the Vuelta. Stage 4 prooved this, but Evenepoel demonstrated to be, in Roglic's own words, "on a different level," till now at least he added pondering Remco's ability to go the distance. Then Evenepoel crashed hard and only for this did he lose some of his advantage in the Sierra Nevadas. Mas surging ahead of Roglic on Serra Nevada prooves Roglic wasn't getting any better, while Remco was still suffering from the effects of the crash.

In July Roglic was needed in support of Vingegaard, the team leader at the biggest race on the calendar, so he remained until unable to contribute to the greater cause. It's harsh, but there are no niceties in pro cycling.
If you're trying to argue Primož Roglič was in top shape at the start of the Vuelta, I don't think I can say anything which will help you "get it" because it's so obtusely outlandish to even suggest two weeks training = good form, I'm a bit lost for words.

Evenepoel is strong & will deserve his victory for preparing well & racing well when it mattered but any attempt to paint his win as a win against "top form Rogla" is just over-aggrandisement of his achievement & silly.
 
If you're trying to argue Primož Roglič was in top shape at the start of the Vuelta, I don't think I can say anything which will help you "get it" because it's so obtusely outlandish to even suggest two weeks training = good form, I'm a bit lost for words.

Evenepoel is strong & will deserve his victory for preparing well & racing well when it mattered but any attempt to paint his win as a win against "top form Rogla" is just over-aggrandisement of his achievement & silly.
He was in excellent shape, otherwise his team would not have brought him for the win, while your supposed "two weeks" of prep is scurrilous cockamamie to mock Remco's leadership.
 
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He was in excellent shape, otherwise his team would not have brought him for the win, while your supposed "two weeks" of prep is scurrilous cockamamie to mock Remco's leadership.
Oh boy.

It's funny how some people project onto others but then descend into an abyss of blind fanboyism themselves, i.e. in this instance, tainted with an angsty defense of Evenepoel's 'image' as a Vuelta champion & also total disrespect towards Rogla.

I mean I get it, you need to say Rog was in top form because it'll make Evenepoel look great, right? Well you can count me out of that little delusion. It's when cycling conversations cease being fun & become nothing more than cringe infantile battles & a d*ck measuring contest basically where you run around claiming your favorite rider is the best of the best whilst misrepresenting his rival's form just to make him look even better.

It would be as if Roglič smashed Pogačar who'd only had two weeks training after riding a prior race with a fractured back & I started shouting "muh Rog is the best, Pog was clearly on form!"

I'd be laughed at, rightly so.
 
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Oh boy.

It's funny how some people project onto others but then descend into an abyss of blind fanboyism themselves, i.e. in this instance, tainted with an angsty defense of Evenepoel's 'image' as a Vuelta champion & also total disrespect towards Rogla.

I mean I get it, you need to say Rog was in top form because it'll make Evenepoel look great, right? Well you can count me out of that little delusion. It's when cycling conversations cease being fun & become nothing more than cringe infantile battles & a d*ck measuring contest basically where you run around claiming your favorite rider is the best of the best whilst misrepresenting his rival's form just to make him look even better.

It would be as if Roglič smashed Pogačar who'd only had two weeks training after riding a prior race with a fractured back & I started shouting "muh Rog is the best, Pog was clearly on form!"

I'd be laughed at, rightly so.
You're right (well I suspect you are but no one really knows how fit Primoz was) but yesterday you were calling Remco a cheat so it does come across like you're working all angles to belittle his current lead in the competition.
 
Oh boy.

It's funny how some people project onto others but then descend into an abyss of blind fanboyism themselves, i.e. in this instance, tainted with an angsty defense of Evenepoel's 'image' as a Vuelta champion & also total disrespect towards Rogla.

I mean I get it, you need to say Rog was in top form because it'll make Evenepoel look great, right? Well you can count me out of that little delusion. It's when cycling conversations cease being fun & become nothing more than cringe infantile battles & a d*ck measuring contest basically where you run around claiming your favorite rider is the best of the best whilst misrepresenting his rival's form just to make him look even better.

It would be as if Roglič smashed Pogačar who'd only had two weeks training after riding a prior race with a fractured back & I started shouting "muh Rog is the best, Pog was clearly on form!"

I'd be laughed at, rightly so.
Let me start off by staying that I have the utmost respect for Roglic and I admire him as much for his humanity as I do for his strength on the bike. I only dispute, however, that he arrived at the Vuelta in poor form. He clearly was and has been in fine form, whatever the circumstances behind his arrival. I'm only interested in the present and Roglic came to the Vuelta with good enough form to win GC and that is that. What I find annoying, however, is how a false narrative was being used as an instrument to diminish Remco's acheivments and formidable condition. And I repeat, Rog was not in crescendo, but maintaining the form he had since the beginning. Only Remco's crash made it appear otherwise. So if that's not sadisfying to you, let's just put a cross on it.
 
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You're right (well I suspect you are but no one really knows how fit Primoz was) but yesterday you were calling Remco a cheat so it does come across like you're working all angles to belittle his current lead in the competition.
I had two posts in the race thread in the heat of the moment. I haven't posted anything in that regard since.

I neither take back my initial comment, not pursue that any further. I don't care. Why? Because from my point of view there's a whole load of people who exist in a world of angst where they're constantly at war against everything & anyone who in their eyes might "belittle" Remco Evenepoel & his status in the sport. They're warriors.

And you know what? They're at it 24/7, all day, everyday. There's always someone for them to fight & some reason why they're fighting.

I'm just here in the Rogla thread explaining the very simple fact his condition at the start of this race was far from optimal due to the crash in the TdF & his lack of preparation. If someone contests that, I'd say they probably do so because of those aforementioned warrior reasons.
 
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I don't know what your problem is but it's pretty universally known in pro cycling that 2 weeks preparation is not enough for a Grand Tour bid. Hence why so many people were saying Rogla shouldn't even be starting the Vuelta.

So of course it stands to reason an early retirement in the TdF to heal those wounds would have improved his chances in Spain. The fact he had improved his form towards the end of Vuelta week 2 says a lot in that regard as well.

Rog only stayed in the TdF to help Vingegaard win it. Nothing he did there helped his own season & Jumbo should be very respectful considering his self-sacrifice in the Tour. It's a pretty sh*tty irony that he soldiered on in the Tour riding injured just to help someone else whilst here he has to go home when he's in a fight to win a GT himself.

It's also a bit galling to now read Jumbo saying "it's for his own good" when they didn't really give that sort of health concern much consideration in July.
You keep on knowing what exactly happened while you don't. All these accusations since Roglic crash toward Jumbo while you don't even know what happened internally. Atleast say that you think what happened instead of writing it down as if it's the truth.
 
You keep on knowing what exactly happened while you don't. All these accusations since Roglic crash toward Jumbo while you don't even know what happened internally. Atleast say that you think what happened instead of writing it down as if it's the truth.
Well, considering Rog's own physiotherapist aka Mit Bračič said the same (& worse) in a recent interview (i.e. he accused their team doctors of forgetting their oath & Jumbo putting their goals ahead of his health), I feel quite comfortable in saying from my point of view he's probably entirely correct.

None of this is speculative anymore.
 
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I had two posts in the race thread in the heat of the moment. I haven't posted anything in that regard since.

I neither take back my initial comment, not pursue that any further. I don't care. Why? Because from my point of view there's a whole load of people who exist in a world of angst where they're constantly at war against everything & anyone who in their eyes might "belittle" Remco Evenepoel & his status in the sport. They're warriors.

And you know what? They're at it 24/7, all day, everyday. There's always someone for them to fight & some reason why they're fighting.

I'm just here in the Rogla thread explaining the very simple fact his condition at the start of this race was far from optimal due to the crash in the TdF & his lack of preparation. If someone contests that, I'd say they probably do so because of those aforementioned warrior reasons.
No angst here, just reasoning based on the evidence. When Remco had his a€€ handed to him by Pog and others previously, no looking for excuses on my part. Yet today Remco has earned his leadership at the Vuelta and Roglic's form wasn't the question.
 
You keep on knowing what exactly happened while you don't. All these accusations since Roglic crash toward Jumbo while you don't even know what happened internally. Atleast say that you think what happened instead of writing it down as if it's the truth.
Same can certainly be said for Extinctions statements as if they are fact, LMAO. He obviously doesn't follow Rogla's own updates on other media the way some of us do.
Rogla was certainly NOT "He was in excellent shape" as stated for whatever Extinctions motives are. He was Off the bike for weeks and had a very short time on the bike to prep.
 
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So the physical and mental tool of the crash was too big and Roglič had to abandon the race. I was hoping for the top 3 competitors to fight it out on the road. That did not happen. In a way it's a shame for the race as a whole. On what happened on stage 16. And for the champion to be. But that is life and not much you can do about it. The stats won't care. The rest will sort itself out.

For me some answers did still got answered. That is it's not such a bad idea to not go overcooked to a GT race. For Roglič. He was really becoming a proper third week monster. We were likely cheated at TDF 2021 for a great battle. That is likely something to look forward to in the future.

When things are fine the impression of some personalities can be a bit deceiving. It just mesmerizes me on how low some people went when Roglič was down. A handful of people that like to present them self as some sort of a standard. On how things should be in life. Get real.

As this is an end of some era. I feel that Vuelta was rather lucky. Poaching Roglič. He really elevated this race. And the race was good to him too. He defended his kingdom bravely and with heart and soul. Now i guess his kingdom released him. To return in future, to build another one elsewhere. Or to rejoice on memories. An era when a worthy king was ruling. Somebody you could look up to. Tried to be like your king. And obviously failing most of the time.

Thank you Primož for enriching us with the qualities so vital in this world. We wouldn't have it any other way. We suffer with you, we win with you, we are proud with you.

Get well soon champion. Rest your body and soul. We have taken so much. Note that we will still be lurking around. On what your next moves will be. And i am sure that there is still much to come.
 
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Clearly JV brought him to the race gauging that his form was adequite enough for the win (and with good reason), indicating, in the end, the Tour crash didn't hinder his performance. To the contrary, riding the Tour likely established a base, which, through early exit, could be built upon for the Vuelta. Stage 4 prooved this, but Evenepoel demonstrated to be, in Roglic's own words, "on a different level," till now at least he added pondering Remco's ability to go the distance. Then Evenepoel crashed hard and only for this did he lose some of his advantage in the Sierra Nevadas. Mas surging ahead of Roglic on Serra Nevada prooves Roglic wasn't getting any better, while Remco was still suffering from the effects of the crash.

In July Roglic was needed in support of Vingegaard, the team leader at the biggest race on the calendar, so he remained until unable to contribute to the greater cause. It's harsh, but there are no niceties in pro cycling.
Just here to point that this statement is a logical fallacy. The one could follow the other but doesn’t necessarily follow the other. They also could have thought that a depleted Roglic could beat Mas and Remco, for example. Or that a low probability attempt would be better than no results at all. Or Roglic, being who he is, thought he could win despite it all and his team thought he could not but wanted the publicity from him in the race. And so on. Regardless. I think Remco’s performance stands on its own. He came to win and he’s beating all comers.
 
Same can certainly be said for Extinctions statements as if they are fact, LMAO. He obviously doesn't follow Rogla's own updates on other media the way some of us do.
Rogla was certainly NOT "He was in excellent shape" as stated for whatever Extinctions motives are. He was Off the bike for weeks and had a very short time on the bike to prep.
Your nonsense would merely be pathetic if it weren't so laughable, as even Rog knows he was full of sh!t as a diversion tactic to lull his competition into believing his Tour accident actually stymied his Vuelta prep to then clobber them off gaurd. But it didn't exactly go to plan now did it old boy?
Just here to point that this statement is a logical fallacy. The one could follow the other but doesn’t necessarily follow the other. They also could have thought that a depleted Roglic could beat Mas and Remco, for example. Or that a low probability attempt would be better than no results at all. Or Roglic, being who he is, thought he could win despite it all and his team thought he could not but wanted the publicity from him in the race. And so on. Regardless. I think Remco’s performance stands on its own. He came to win and he’s beating all comers.
Nah, you are making a mound out of a mole hill. No logical falacy here, as Rog was clearly not depleated. To the contrary, stage 4 clearly evidences that wasn't the case! He had stellar form, only Remco put that into perspective as the road began to rise. In fact, proof that Roglic was not deficient in form or prep, is the fact that he continued to ride with a force into the Sierra Nevadas. By contrast, had he actually been in a bad state he would have imploded beforehand.
 
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Your nonsense would merely be pathetic if it weren't so laughable, as even Rog knows he was full of sh!t as a diversion tactic to lull his competition into believing his Tour accident actually stymied his Vuelta prep to then clobber them off gaurd. But it didn't exactly go to plan now did it old boy?

Nah, you are making a mound out of a mole hill. No logical falacy here, as Rog was clearly not depleated. To the contrary, stage 4 clearly evidences that wasn't the case! He had stellar form, only Remco put that into perspective as the road began to rise. In fact, proof that Roglic was not deficient in form or prep, is the fact that he continued to ride with a force into the Sierra Nevadas. By contrast, had he actual been in a bad state he would have imploded beforehand.
And your attack on me is totally uncalled for. Ignore is all you deserve.
 
It is quite possible that Roglic was in very good form, without being at his best form. I think Roglic was much better than expected, but not the best Roglic, or he wouldn't have lost time especially on stage 9. On the other hand he was good enough to win stage 4. Which also isn't that strange since against the current competition he didn't have to be 100% since there was no Pogacar, Van Aert, Van der Poel... only an out of form Alaphilippe. So Roglic, imho was very good, but not the best Roglic. On the other hand, the Sierra Nevada stage showed that he wasn't growing stronger than Evenepoel and that Evenepoel was not fading, as many people assumed, but that the stage prior was simply due to his crash.

Does this seem fair to everybody? I think it seems fair. And i also think that's how it was.
 
It is quite possible that Roglic was in very good form, without being at his best form. I think Roglic was much better than expected, but not the best Roglic, or he wouldn't have lost time especially on stage 9. On the other hand he was good enough to win stage 4. Which also isn't that strange since against the current competition he didn't have to be 100% since there was no Pogacar, Van Aert, Van der Poel... only an out of form Alaphilippe. So Roglic, imho was very good, but not the best Roglic. On the other hand, the Sierra Nevada stage showed that he wasn't growing stronger than Evenepoel and that Evenepoel was not fading, as many people assumed, but that the stage prior was simply due to his crash.

Does this seem fair to everybody? I think it seems fair. And i also think that's how it was.
For the record I never said this was the best Roglic, although you are only as good as your current state. The best Roglic was at the 2020 Tour, and we know how that sadly ended (for Roglic and his fans). All I've said is that this Roglic was in fine form, as he undeniably has demonstrated. The rest is just cockamamie nonesence.
 
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