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Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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This same decision should have been made the morning after his TdF crash.

At which point he wouldn't have arrived in the Vuelta lacking form after so little preparation & chasing time in week 3. It's called a snowball effect.

Don't you get tired of yourself sometimes? Do you really think Roglic stayed in the TdF only because Jumbo wanted it? If Roglic said he couldn't race on he wouldn't have raced on. They don't force a rider to race on that says he can't race on. Stop it please.
In hindsight he should've retired from the TdF faster than he did now, that's true, but it's easy from the sidelines isn't it?
 
Semantics and characterizations.....be a fan but be a real expert, please. Creating scenarios and conclusions just feed the undernourished.
Aren’t we all definitionally undernourished given we are spending time debating other people’s cycling performances on an Internet forum?
Rog is becoming the new Contador with all his crashes
Yes! Welcome aboard the purposeless movement.
Strong and weak forms of the term wheelsucking:

Weakest form: Riding behind another rider. Ergo, Evenepoel wheelsucked Vervaeke. Mas wheelsucked De la Cruz, when the latter was pulling the trio.

Middle form: Refusing to cooperate and take turns (when asked to). It's a bit muddy to what extent asking has to be explicit. Alaphilippe wheelsucked Sagan in Sanremo '17. Contador wheelsucked Froome in the 2014 Vuelta.

Strong form: Refusing to cooperate while relying on others to cooperate with you. Relying here means in order to achieve your goals. Typical example is not taking turns in a breakaway group when you depend on others to hold the chasers off.

Strongest form: Refusing to cooperate when that is self-sabotaging. A tactical failure mode forced by habit or misinterpretation of the race situation. When it's clear that Gilbert won't be able to catch Kwiatkowski and you still won't take a turn, even when you are the rider with the strongest sprint who would profit the most from him being caught. Also: Valverde
This is good. I would add to the middle form two additional criteria: Either the person you are “wheelsucking” is the leader of the race and stronger (e.g., Roglic and Evenpoel) or that person has historically beaten you and it is in your interest not to contribute (e.g., Contador and Froome 2014). But maybe that is already implicit. Or too specific.
It will be one of the weakest GT wins in recent history.
Have you not been watching the Giro the last few years? I’d say this is on track to rank above any recent Giro, below the recent Tours, below last year’s Vuelta, and on par with 2020 Vuelta, although that was impressive for the way Roglic doubled up from a devastating Tour. But let’s see what happens the rest of the way. If Remco falls apart and Mas ends up winning by staying upright, I’ll take it all back. :D
 
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This is good. I would add to the middle form two additional criteria: Either the person you are “wheelsucking” is the leader of the race and stronger (e.g., Roglic and Evenpoel) or that person has historically beaten you and it is in your interest not to contribute (e.g., Contador and Froome 2014). But maybe that is already implicit. Or too specific.

The weaker forms include the stronger forms. That is, all stronger forms are subsets of weaker forms.

If a stronger form is too strong and you need to apply a weaker form, the set difference describes the situation (and is what I used as examples).
 
Strong and weak forms of the term wheelsucking:

Weakest form: Riding behind another rider. Ergo, Evenepoel wheelsucked Vervaeke. Mas wheelsucked De la Cruz, when the latter was pulling the trio.

Middle form: Refusing to cooperate and take turns (when asked to). It's a bit muddy to what extent asking has to be explicit. Alaphilippe wheelsucked Sagan in Sanremo '17. Contador wheelsucked Froome in the 2014 Vuelta.

Strong form: Refusing to cooperate while relying on others to cooperate with you. Relying here means in order to achieve your goals. Typical example is not taking turns in a breakaway group when you depend on others to hold the chasers off.

Strongest form: Refusing to cooperate when that is self-sabotaging. A tactical failure mode forced by habit or misinterpretation of the race situation. When it's clear that Gilbert won't be able to catch Kwiatkowski and you still won't take a turn, even when you are the rider with the strongest sprint who would profit the most from him being caught. Also: Valverde
Ah, but Contador was in red and so it was up to Froome to drop him and make up time. No wheelsucking there, just privilege of rank that dictates tactics. Besides Contador, throughout his career, was anything but a wheelsucker. To the contrary, he was often wrecklessly cavalier in his attacking, especially later in his career, when strength and wisdom should have dictated staying more on the wheels. But his attacking style simply didn't allow for it.
 
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This same decision should have been made the morning after his TdF crash.

At which point he wouldn't have arrived in the Vuelta lacking form after so little preparation & chasing time in week 3. It's called a snowball effect.

Jesus Christ, some of the takes on this site are ridiculous these days.

So you're seriously saying that he only crashed yesterday because he wasn't pulled immediately from the Tour.
 
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Jesus Christ, some of the takes on this site are ridiculous these days.

So you're seriously saying that he only crashed yesterday because he wasn't pulled immediately from the Tour.
I mostly agree with the sentiment, but I don’t think he meant “only.” That looks like your addition. Have you not seen Everything Everywhere All At Once? In another universe, Roglic was pulled from the Tour immediately and is in the lead of the Vuelta right now despite uh…having hot dogs for fingers.
 
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I mostly agree with the sentiment, but I don’t think he meant “only.” That looks like your addition. Have you not seen Everything Everywhere All At Once? In another universe, Roglic was pulled from the Tour immediately and is in the lead of the Vuelta right now despite uh…having hot dogs for fingers.

Probably. It was the snowball effect nonsense I mostly reacted to.
 
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Probably. It was the snowball effect nonsense I mostly reacted to.
If he had left the Tour sooner, he would have been stronger in this Vuelta. Maybe then he would have attacked more and taken more risks. Maybe he even would have crashed on a descent then. Maybe it would have been a fatal accident.

So actually, him not leaving the Tour sooner saved his life!
 
I mostly agree with the sentiment, but I don’t think he meant “only.” That looks like your addition. Have you not seen Everything Everywhere All At Once? In another universe, Roglic was pulled from the Tour immediately and is in the lead of the Vuelta right now despite uh…having hot dogs for fingers.
There is no gaurantee Roglic is in the lead, had he been pulled immediately from the Tour. Stage 4 of this Vuelta showed he was flying, but simply met his match in a superior Remco. Then Evenepoel crashed hard and that gave Roglic a margin to make gains. But Mas's superior form on Sierra Nevada prooves Roglic had not improved significantly, as the accepted narrative claims, because of a supposed lack of form at the start of the race.
 
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Probably. It was the snowball effect nonsense I mostly reacted to.

I don't know what your problem is but it's pretty universally known in pro cycling that 2 weeks preparation is not enough for a Grand Tour bid. Hence why so many people were saying Rogla shouldn't even be starting the Vuelta.

So of course it stands to reason an early retirement in the TdF to heal those wounds would have improved his chances in Spain. The fact he had improved his form towards the end of Vuelta week 2 says a lot in that regard as well.

Rog only stayed in the TdF to help Vingegaard win it. Nothing he did there helped his own season & Jumbo should be very respectful considering his self-sacrifice in the Tour. It's a pretty sh*tty irony that he soldiered on in the Tour riding injured just to help someone else whilst here he has to go home when he's in a fight to win a GT himself.

It's also a bit galling to now read Jumbo saying "it's for his own good" when they didn't really give that sort of health concern much consideration in July.
 

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