Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[DNP-Old]

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Skjelmose got caught as a junior with metylheksanamin. Oops.

 

[tobydawq]

Skjelmose got caught as a junior with metylheksanamin. Oops.

Oh, right. I think that incident has been fairly well explained, though.

 

[theyoungest]

Uno-x is showing interest in Foss. If he really wants to ride a GT as leader...

Yeah, it would be the obvious place to go, although it's not a WT team and won't be for a little while. So that's a gamble.

But let's face it, if it were not for his world title you'd wonder why Jumbo would even really want to keep him. The main reason they even signed him is probably the fact that one of their main sponsors is Norwegian.

 

[Squire]

Yeah, it would be the obvious place to go, although it's not a WT team and won't be for a little while. So that's a gamble.

But let's face it, if it were not for his world title you'd wonder why Jumbo would even really want to keep him. The main reason they even signed him is probably the fact that one of their main sponsors is Norwegian.

The main reason they signed him, I reckon, is that he won l'Avenir, podiumed LBL U23 and made the front group of the WC. And was a beast already as a teenager.

It's not like he's Feng Chunkai.

 

[laarsland]

Yeah, it would be the obvious place to go, although it's not a WT team and won't be for a little while. So that's a gamble.

But let's face it, if it were not for his world title you'd wonder why Jumbo would even really want to keep him. The main reason they even signed him is probably the fact that one of their main sponsors is Norwegian.

Yeah it's not like he won Tour de L'Avenir or anything.

 

[theyoungest]

The main reason they signed him, I reckon, is that he won l'Avenir, podiumed LBL U23 and made the front group of the WC. And was a beast already as a teenager.

It's not like he's Feng Chunkai.

They already signed him when he won l'Avenir. He even trained with them. And no, he isn't some nobody who became world champion out of nowhere, as some would suggest, but he is a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none. A little too big to be a climber, not explosive enough to be a classics rider. But maybe he's found his stride and he's now some kind of new Tony Martin.

 

[Squire]

They already signed him when he won l'Avenir. He even trained with them. And no, he isn't some nobody who became world champion out of nowhere, as some would suggest, but he is a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none. A little too big to be a climber, not explosive enough to be a classics rider. But maybe he's found his stride and he's now some kind of new Tony Martin.

My point was that as he was one of the hottest young names around in 2018/19, I don't think nationality played a big role.

But I agree with what you're saying. I don't think his potential in the mountains is as big as he himself thinks. He is almost exactly the same size as Jan Ullrich, and there haven't been that many recent GT winners in that mould. I do however think we haven't seen all that he can do. I don't think that 9th place in the Giro is his ceiling. Roglic could end up having a rather formidable lieutenant if Foss arrives in good shape.

 

[theyoungest]

My point was that as he was one of the hottest young names around in 2018/19, I don't think nationality played a big role.

But I agree with what you're saying. I don't think his potential in the mountains is as big as he himself thinks. He is almost exactly the same size as Jan Ullrich, and there haven't been that many recent GT winners in that mould. I do however think we haven't seen all that he can do. I don't think that 9th place in the Giro is his ceiling. Roglic could end up having a rather formidable lieutenant if Foss arrives in good shape.

I do like him, as a person more than as a rider it has to be said, he seems to be very smart and thoughtful. I think with him his progress has been hampered a bit by weight issues, not anorexia or anything but finding the right balance between weight and performance.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Yeah it's not like he won Tour de L'Avenir or anything.

As a last year U23, with the only competition coming from a first year U23 who lost time due to a mechanical, and another guy who isn't even a climber, with other competitors crashing out (Pidcock, and half of the Colombian team iirc). Without the strongest guy in the race in his team (Sleen) he doesn't come close to winning Avenir either.

To put that into perspective, that's like Evenepoel trying to win Avenir last summer instead of the Vuelta. Or Bernal going back to win l'Avenir again instead of winning the Tour in 2019. Or Pogacar going back to win Avenir after having already won the Tour once.

 

[laarsland]

I'm not disputing that L'Avenir has lost quite a bit of it's shimmer given the new pathways and capability of young talents in cycling the last few years. Foss was not setting the junior and U23-ranks ablaze Remco/Morgado/Herzog/Cian-style, but he had consistent results over time and suggesting he was signed as a token Ahmed Madan is disingenuous

 

[Samu Cuenca]

To put that into perspective, that's like Evenepoel trying to win Avenir last summer instead of the Vuelta. Or Bernal going back to win l'Avenir again instead of winning the Tour in 2019. Or Pogacar going back to win Avenir after having already won the Tour once.

No, it wouldn't.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

No, it wouldn't.

No it wouldn, because Foss doesn't come remotely close to being as good as those riders at the age he won Avenir.

I'm not disputing that L'Avenir has lost quite a bit of it's shimmer given the new pathways and capability of young talents in cycling the last few years. Foss was not setting the junior and U23-ranks ablaze Remco/Morgado/Herzog/Cian-style, but he had consistent results over time and suggesting he was signed as a token Ahmed Madan is disingenuous

I have no idea what Jumbo was thinking, but to be perfectly honest (and this is not a joke at the expense of the rider) i was literally laughing when i heard Jumbo signed him after that given his (at the time) outspoken ambition to win the TDF there.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

No it wouldn, because Foss doesn't come remotely close to being as good as those riders at the age he won Avenir.

I'm not saying Foss is/will ever become as good as them, but not all riders progress at the same speed.

 

[theyoungest]

No it wouldn, because Foss doesn't come remotely close to being as good as those riders at the age he won Avenir.

No, but he follows a totally different trajectory than those guys who have basically been professional athletes since they were 12. Also, he wasn't a pro yet when he won l'Avenir, so there your comparison is moot as well.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

No, but he follows a totally different trajectory than those guys who have basically been professional athletes since they were 12. Also, he wasn't a pro yet when he won l'Avenir, so there your comparison is moot as well.

Yes yes, i'm sure he's peaking to be top when he's 36. His younger competitor whom he won Avenir against, weren't pros either. And you think Uno-X (where he was riding at the time) didn't know how to prep their riders? Being pro is basically a scribble on a piece of paper, it doesn't give you magical superpowers. And Foss was already riding pro races in 2016. So please.

 

[theyoungest]

Yes yes, i'm sure he's peaking to be top when he's 36. His younger competitor whom he won Avenir against, weren't pros either. And you think Uno-X (where he was riding at the time) didn't know how to prep their riders? Being pro is basically a scribble on a piece of paper, it doesn't give you magical superpowers. And Foss was already riding pro races in 2016. So please.

You're a bit too hung up on age. Who talks about Andy Schleck anymore, a rider who was basically burnt out at 27. It's about individual progress, not about whether you're Eddy Evenepoel and a world beater at 22. Or conversely, Primoz Roglic and still relatively 'young' as a cyclist at 33.

 

[laarsland]

If only Foss had the wherewithal to place 68th in the 2018-Avenir..

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You're a bit too hung up on age. Who talks about Andy Schleck anymore, a rider who was basically burnt out at 27. It's about individual progress, not about whether you're Eddy Evenepoel and a world beater at 22. Or conversely, Primoz Roglic and still relatively 'young' as a cyclist at 33.

Foss didn't start cycling when he was 22 like Roglic. He wasn't cutting fish like Vingegaard when he was 18 or playing football like Evenepoel still at 17. Foss did, unlike you are trying to claim, not take it slow as a junior or U23 in order to be a late bloomer or because he was physically behind the curve. His results quite clearly indicate he has always tried to get as good as possible results in GC. As a fact, riding for Uno-X during his u23 years, meant he had an advantage over many of his competitors, because that team at that time was already very well structured. It was also by far the most physically impressive team in the 2019 Avenir. Just because his results were never among the best throughout his youth until his Avenir win, doesn't mean he was performing beneath his (future) potential, this is simply an assumption of you based on nothing. Foss was already doing pro races as soon as he left the juniors. The whole fantasy you are trying to push, is made up.

 

[Red Rick]

Foss didn't start cycling when he was 22 like Roglic. He wasn't cutting fish like Vingegaard when he was 18 or playing football like Evenepoel still at 17. Foss did, unlike you are trying to claim, not take it slow as a junior or U23 in order to be a late bloomer or because he was physically behind the curve. His results quite clearly indicate he has always tried to get as good as possible results in GC. As a fact, riding for Uno-X during his u23 years, meant he had an advantage over many of his competitors, because that team at that time was already very well structured. It was also by far the most physically impressive team in the 2019 Avenir. Just because his results were never among the best throughout his youth until his Avenir win, doesn't mean he was performing beneath his (future) potential, this is simply an assumption of you based on nothing. Foss was already doing pro races as soon as he left the juniors. The whole fantasy you are trying to push, is made up.

The only 'intangible' explanation I can think of is that maybe Foss tries too hard to be a GC level climber to his own detriment, especially if his natural body type is basically a bit too heavy for it. Basically his only really good results have been in TTs, as a climber even during his good results he falls way short.

Basically as a climber he's more like a worse version of Jungels than Dumoulin.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

If only Foss had the wherewithal to place 68th in the 2018-Avenir..

Thanks for proving my point. He actually did better in 2017. It certainly wasn't for a lack of trying that he didn't make a name for himself sooner. Finally, in his 4th try at Avenir, some other competitors crashed out, and thanks to the TTT and mechanical of a guy 3 years younger, he was finally able to win a big race. That means the progression he made over all those years, has been rather underwhelming. Please explain to me exactly how that this somehow proves he has a surplus of talent that will enable him to somehow leapfrog not only guys his own age, but guys like Ayuso and Uitdebroecks who are 6 years younger and already better than him. Foss is not going to be the only rider in the world getting better. Then there are guys like Brenner or Tulett. Compare him to a guy like Plapp, who is still 4 years younger, the difference is Foss has always tried to become a GC rider, while Plapp only focused on TT's until joining Ineos and has since shown promise as a climber. In Plapp's case you could argue there is still a lot of untapped potential since he never tried to be a climber or GC rider.

The only 'intangible' explanation I can think of is that maybe Foss tries too hard to be a GC level climber to his own detriment, especially if his natural body type is basically a bit too heavy for it. Basically his only really good results have been in TTs, as a climber even during his good results he falls way short.

Basically as a climber he's more like a worse version of Jungels than Dumoulin.

Yep. The Wiggings transformation isn't going to be happening for him, because unlike Wiggins or Dumoulin (or Plapp as i just used as an example), Foss has already focused on GC's for years. While Wiggins, Dumoulin, Plapp... were basically TT'ers who discovered only later that they might turn into GC riders at some point.

Crazier things have happened, but Foss turning into GC winning material is rather unlikely imho. So if that's his dream, and if he doesn't want to settle as a (super) domestique for Roglic or Vingegaard, then why would he stay at Jumbo or why would Jumbo want him to stay? Even since becoming pro, his progression as a GC rider/climber is hardly earth shattering, he turns 26 in May. I didn't expect him becoming WC TT, and all props for pulling that off, it was again -not unlike his Avenir win- thanks to unique conditions. Ganna out of form, Evenepoel finishing the Vuelta less than a week prior, Van Aert not showing up...

 

[Ilmaestro99]

What's wrong with Foss guys? Good rider and he never led a GT

 

[theyoungest]

Foss didn't start cycling when he was 22 like Roglic. He wasn't cutting fish like Vingegaard when he was 18 or playing football like Evenepoel still at 17. Foss did, unlike you are trying to claim, not take it slow as a junior or U23 in order to be a late bloomer or because he was physically behind the curve. His results quite clearly indicate he has always tried to get as good as possible results in GC. As a fact, riding for Uno-X during his u23 years, meant he had an advantage over many of his competitors, because that team at that time was already very well structured. It was also by far the most physically impressive team in the 2019 Avenir. Just because his results were never among the best throughout his youth until his Avenir win, doesn't mean he was performing beneath his (future) potential, this is simply an assumption of you based on nothing. Foss was already doing pro races as soon as he left the juniors. The whole fantasy you are trying to push, is made up.

I don't follow Foss as closely as you do, and with as much spite, but I do remember reading an interview when he just signed for Jumbo saying he has consciously tried to go for a more gradual approach, which I thought was interesting. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue, nowhere am I saying that he will be the next Jonas Vingegaard, in fact quite the opposite... but I do think he's not at his apex yet whereas Vingegaard must be getting quite close.

 

[Squire]

Please explain to me exactly how that this somehow proves he has a surplus of talent that will enable him to somehow leapfrog not only guys his own age, but guys like Ayuso and Uitdebroecks who are 6 years younger and already better than him.

Who has been talking about leapfrogging Ayuso? As far as I can tell, the consensus here is that Foss is a good rider (he has already proven he can top 10 a GT), but probably not GT podium material.

I have no idea what Jumbo was thinking, but to be perfectly honest (and this is not a joke at the expense of the rider) i was literally laughing when i heard Jumbo signed him after that given his (at the time) outspoken ambition to win the TDF there.

I'm sure Jumbo are relieved they're not making decisions based on what makes you laugh or not. Otherwise they wouldn't have had a Giro top 10 in 2021 or the ITT world champion in their ranks. I'm pretty sure they didn't sign him just to put all their eggs in the 'Foss for TDF' basket. And a lot of guys have said that they dream of winning the Tour.

 

[Squire]

I don't follow Foss as closely as you do, and with as much spite, but I do remember reading an interview when he just signed for Jumbo saying he has consciously tried to go for a more gradual approach, which I thought was interesting. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue, nowhere am I saying that he will be the next Jonas Vingegaard, in fact quite the opposite... but I do think he's not at his apex yet whereas Vingegaard must be getting quite close.

Yes, during his junior and U23 years, he very conciously avoided getting too hung up on weight, but focused on building up base endurance. In an interview from before he joined Jumbo, he said he needed to lose 4-5 kg to be competitive in grand tours, and he envisioned to do that over a period of 5-7 years. He also said he wanted to be at his peak when he was 30.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

For my closing statement i will just point out, that when Ilmaestro starts liking your posts, things aren't looking too good.

Seriously though, i think Foss might be better served putting on more weight and start eyeballing TT's, classics or breakaways than trying to lose weight (iirc he already lost a lot of that weight 2 years ago, and it has not improved his general level) with GC in mind. I also doubt Jumbo is going to sign a 23 year old, who will only start showing his pedigree 4 years after their contract ends. That's the level of commitment you expect with a generational talent, which he is clearly not. Also, if all that was really true, and he really believed what he said back then, then there is no need for him to start expecting/claiming a more prominent role as a GC leader at this point, as by his own admission, he's still 4 years shy of his best level.