Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[theyoungest]

As for Evenepoel peaking for races nobody else peaks for, you're kidding, right? He did 3 WCC TT, he finished on the podium 3 times, including the time he came out of the Vuelta. Feel free to compare that to how Roglic performed at the WCC TT after coming out of the Vuelta in 2019.

I'm not kidding, and it's quite an obvious choice in his development. He mainly starts in races where he is the only or just one of a few top riders in top shape. Which gives him the chance to learn to fight for the win rather than 4th place. Even in the races where he was up against great opposition in great form, like this year's Worlds, we didn't really get to see him fight against these riders. The race was basically already over before it began. Which is also part of Evenepoel's appeal, he likes a long range attack before the real final starts. Something Roglic certainly doesn't like (to take it back to the topic at hand )

 

[Red Rick]

Can't wait for these 2 threads to make me stupendously invested in Rog vs Remco wars leading to me feeling very stupid after the Giro cause I didn't enjoy the race as much even if Rog wins.

 

[topcat]

Can't wait for these 2 threads to make me stupendously invested in Rog vs Remco wars leading to me feeling very stupid after the Giro cause I didn't enjoy the race as much even if Rog wins.

Can you please merge the Roglic and Remco threads into one big whinefest? Also create a rule where the mention of either rider gets dumped into this thread. There are over 4 months till the giro, so do not hurry and do not worry, and while you're here, take time to smell the coffee.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I'm not kidding, and it's quite an obvious choice in his development. He mainly starts in races where he is the only or just one of a few top riders in top shape. Which gives him the chance to learn to fight for the win rather than 4th place. Even in the races where he was up against great opposition in great form, like this year's Worlds, we didn't really get to see him fight against these riders. The race was basically already over before it began. Which is also part of Evenepoel's appeal, he likes a long range attack before the real final starts. Something Roglic certainly doesn't like (to take it back to the topic at hand )

Clearly you are either kidding or oblivious. This was true for his maiden year 2019, that's it. In 2020 his goals were Lombardia and Giro. But there was Covid and his Lombardia crash. In 2021 he went -iladvised- to the Giro, and after seeing his form was not where he hoped, he set the Olympics as his new goal, where he failed again (this time overtrained in an attempt to get his form back on track), and then WCC/Lombardia. In 2022 he went to Tirreno, Suisse, won Liège, Vuelta and WCC. So basically the only thing you can say is that he should have targetted the Tour starting 2020 and that he failed at his goals in 2021.

And still, we were discussing his TT's, so i have no idea why you would drag other races into the conversation. He has 3 WCC TT participations and he finished all of them on the podium. Case closed. As for not seeing him fighting against the others at the 2022 WCC: lol.

Can you please merge the Roglic and Remco threads into one big whinefest? Also create a rule where the mention of either rider gets dumped into this thread. There are over 4 months till the giro, so do not hurry and do not worry, and while you're here, take time to smell the coffee.

Looks like the whinefest just started.

 

[theyoungest]

Clearly you are either kidding or oblivious. This was true for his maiden year 2019, that's it. In 2020 his goals were Lombardia and Giro. But there was Covid and his Lombardia crash. In 2021 he went -iladvised- to the Giro, and after seeing his form was not where he hoped, he set the Olympics as his new goal, where he failed again (this time overtrained in an attempt to get his form back on track), and then WCC/Lombardia. In 2022 he went to Tirreno, Suisse, won Liège, Vuelta and WCC. So basically the only thing you can say is that he should have targetted the Tour starting 2020 and that he failed at his goals in 2021.

And still, we were discussing his TT's, so i have no idea why you would drag other races into the conversation. He has 3 WCC TT participations and he finished all of them on the podium. Case closed. As for not seeing him fighting against the others at the 2022 WCC: lol.


Looks like the whinefest just started.

I seem to have hit a nerve here... Personally I don't really prefer one over the other, Roglic and Evenepoel are pretty similar riders which will make the Giro quite interesting. But it also makes that final TT quite difficult to predict IMO. Neither of them is a natural climber type, if there's a Pogacar or Vingegaard you'd give the edge to them in such a TT but with Rog and Remco I wouldn't know.

About the Worlds, do you really think that if Evenepoel had stayed in the peloton and wait for the battle against Tadej Pogacar et al. he wouldn't have had a slightly harder time winning it? That's not a negative assessment of his performance, he won after all, but tactics did come into play.

 

[Extinction]

I seem to have hit a nerve here... Personally I don't really prefer one over the other, Roglic and Evenepoel are pretty similar riders which will make the Giro quite interesting. But it also makes that final TT quite difficult to predict IMO. Neither of them is a natural climber type, if there's a Pogacar or Vingegaard you'd give the edge to them in such a TT but with Rog and Remco I wouldn't know.

About the Worlds, do you really think that if Evenepoel had stayed in the peloton and wait for the battle against Tadej Pogacar et al. he wouldn't have had a slightly harder time winning it? That's not a negative assessment of his performance, he won after all, but tactics did come into play.

To say Roglic and Evenepoel aren't "natural climbers" is stretching it, honestly. When you can win MTF in a GT you are de facto natural at climbing. I think you meant "pure climbers," because, of course, they are so much more. In Remco's case he just needed to get beyond the setback sustained from his Lombardia crash to develope his natural penchant for an incredibly high and sustained power to weight ratio, which is all one needs to go uphill fast. Whereas Roglic also has an explosive punch in the end on certain uphill finishes, although Remco too demonstrated he can finish fast at the top of a mountain at the last Vuelta. The last Giro TT will come down to who is freshest deep into the race, more than natural climbing ability. However, given the steepness and length of the climb, the better power to weight ratio will doubtless also be decisive.

At Worlds Evenepoel was indeed favored by tactics, but he clearly made his fortune and, with the time gained solo in the last 25 km on those trying to bring him back, was undoubtedly the strongest in the race. Had others been with him at the moment he went solo, I thus don't think the outcome would have been different. In any case, chapeau.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

About the Worlds, do you really think that if Evenepoel had stayed in the peloton and wait for the battle against Tadej Pogacar et al. he wouldn't have had a slightly harder time winning it? That's not a negative assessment of his performance, he won after all, but tactics did come into play.

Why the flying F would Evenepoel wait for a sub 5 minute battle with Pogacar/Cosnefroy/Alaphilippe/ by staying in the peloton? How is riding to your strengths in a race where the world's best riders are present, in any shape or form the same as trying to dodge a fight? If anything, by not responding to Evenepoel's attack and hoping that the peloton brings him back, it's the others that are dodging the fight. It's him who attacked first, and the others who didn't like getting mixed up in a 1hr effort, hoping the peloton do that for them. Or perhaps you still think the others still don't know who Evenepoel is, maybe they didn't see any of his previous dozens of wins?

But hey, i also think it's a shame Vingegaard didn't wait for Jakobsen on top of Hautacam, let him catch his breath for a minute or two, and then decide in a 50m sprint to see who really is the strongest.

The only nerve you hit is the one that is sensitive to nonsense.

 

[theyoungest]

Why the flying F would Evenepoel wait for a sub 5 minute battle with Pogacar/Cosnefroy/Alaphilippe/ by staying in the peloton? How is riding to your strengths in a race where the world's best riders are present, in any shape or form the same as trying to dodge a fight? If anything, by not responding to Evenepoel's attack and hoping that the peloton brings him back, it's the others that are dodging the fight. It's him who attacked first, and the others who didn't like getting mixed up in a 1hr effort, hoping the peloton do that for them. Or perhaps you still think the others still don't know who Evenepoel is, maybe they didn't see any of his previous dozens of wins?

But hey, i also think it's a shame Vingegaard didn't wait for Jakobsen on top of Hautacam, let him catch his breath for a minute or two, and then decide in a 50m sprint to see who really is the strongest.

The only nerve you hit is the one that is sensitive to nonsense.

How they let him go into that breakaway was indeed a mystery. And why anyone worked with him in that breakaway was a mystery as well. But once that group was up there with a sizable advantage, you could basically already congratulate Evenepoel with the win.

Okay, back to the man, Primoz Roglic.

To say Roglic and Evenepoel aren't "natural climbers" is stretching it, honestly. When you can win MTF in a GT you are de facto natural at climbing. I think you meant "pure climbers," because, of course, they are so much more. In Remco's case he just needed to get beyond the setback sustained from his Lombardia crash to develope his natural penchant for an incredibly high and sustained power to weight ratio, which is all one needs to go uphill fast. Whereas Roglic also has an explosive punch in the end on certain uphill finishes, although Remco too demonstrated he can finish fast at the top of a mountain at the last Vuelta. The last Giro TT will come down to who is freshest deep into the race, more than natural climbing ability. However, given the steepness and length of the climb, the better power to weight ratio will doubtless also be decisive.

Roglic is naturally more of the Alaphilippe type, specific training has turned him into someone who can also handle the longer climbs. But it's not what he's inherently best at. He would still prefer a steady pace all climb and then a short explosive effort at the end.

 

[Extinction]

Roglic is a more natural climber than Alaphilippe, who is like a Bettini 2.0.

 

[Salvarani]

Roglic is a natural jumper. Did yall know that he used to be a skijumper? How cool is that.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I've compared Roglic to Evenepoel in the past a few times, i do think they are quite similar, especially being compact TT'ers (meaning relatively lightweight as well, hence great tempoclimbers). The main difference is that Roglic has a more natural knack for those short efforts (murito's and uphill sprints), while Evenepoel shines more in longer efforts (long raids). But out of the entire pro peloton, i don't think there are currently many riders that are more like them, than each other. Van Wilder is maybe the only other one that is that similar.

 

[Red Rick]

Everything depends on your definitions, and phrases like "pure climber", "all rounder" or "natural climber" are just buzz words with no tangible meaning anyway, and also generally used in direct comparison to someone else.

 

[Extinction]

Everything depends on your definitions, and phrases like "pure climber", "all rounder" or "natural climber" are just buzz words with no tangible meaning anyway, and also generally used in direct comparison to someone else.

Well, let's put it this way, if you can win on mountains at WT level you are a natural. If you can only win on MTFs, you are a pure climber. If you can climb and TT, you are an all rounder to varying degrees.

 

[Andy schleck]

Well, let's put it this way, if you can win on mountains at WT level you are a natural. If you can only win on MTFs, you are a pure climber. If you can climb and TT, you are an all rounder to varying degrees.

An all rounder is also a pure climber and a TT specialist.

 

[Extinction]

An all rounder is also a pure climber and a TT specialist.

Pretty much what I wrote.

 

[Red Rick]

Well, let's put it this way, if you can win on mountains at WT level you are a natural. If you can only win on MTFs, you are a pure climber. If you can climb and TT, you are an all rounder to varying degrees.

And I would disagree with each of these 3 definitions.

 

[Extinction]

And I would disagree with each of these 3 definitions.

And you would be wrong

 

[theyoungest]

Roglic is a more natural climber than Alaphilippe, who is like a Bettini 2.0.

It's actually a comparison I borrowed from Roglic' trainer. When Rog came to the team he was more of an Alaphilippe. They really worked on being able to maintain longer efforts. The explosiveness is just there naturally.

 

[Oldermanish]

P.s.I like being a numbers nerd in cycling but of course numbers are just numbers and should be taken as a good indication but like so many others, it is not an absolute truth when it comes to doing complete analyses.

Thank you for pointing out that seasonal, race and specific effort reality that gets washed away in feverish fan discussions. Much has been said about skills for all the major contenders and alot of the "fanspeak" is as if rider strengths are a static and absolute set of circumstances for each athlete. We may be talking about new riders entirely this upcoming season and wonder what happened to our favorites.

You're right, it;s been paved as of June 2022

That'll be a cool climb. I've done it before the upper part was paved and it presents both team and individual challenges. The runup is gradual and fast. Then it goes BANG.

 

[Extinction]

It's actually a comparison I borrowed from Roglic' trainer. When Rog came to the team he was more of an Alaphilippe. They really worked on being able to maintain longer efforts. The explosiveness is just there naturally.

I still think Roglic has more natural climbing ability in GT stuff.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Wilco Kelderman will give full support to Primoz Roglic at Giro d'Italia- "Roglic can count on my loyalty"

Wilco Kelderman will give full support to Primoz Roglic at Giro d'Italia- "Roglic can count on my loyalty"

Jumbo-Visma team is not a novelty for Wilco Kelderman who had already represented the team between 2012 and 2016 (formerly Rabobank and LottoNL-Jumbo),Now at 31 he returns to a home that he knows very...

cyclinguptodate.com

In Australian politics it's a bit of a meme that when a secondary leader says that "the leader has my full support" that they're in the process of stabbing them in the back

 

[DNP-Old]

Well, Wilco Kelderman couldn’t assert dominance or authorize his authority to a carton of milk if his life depended on it, so I shan’t be too worried.

 

[theyoungest]

Well, Wilco Kelderman couldn’t assert dominance or authorize his authority to a carton of milk if his life depended on it, so I shan’t be too worried.

That's a pretty mean way of saying it, but yes, Wilco Kelderman is a very gentle and modest type of person. He could have won the Giro if he had been a little more demanding of his team, it's just not in his system.

 

[Red Rick]

That's a pretty mean way of saying it, but yes, Wilco Kelderman is a very gentle and modest type of person. He could have won the Giro if he had been a little more demanding of his team, it's just not in his system.

Kelderman wasn't good enough that Giro, it's a simple as that.

 

[theyoungest]

Kelderman wasn't good enough that Giro, it's a simple as that.

I guess you'd fit in as a DS at Sunweb, but it's not quite as simple as that. Whether he would have won wasn't my point anyway.