Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[bNator]

Roglic is now the 2nd choice GC rider of that team by merit, which is why he does not get to ride the Tour, which is why he does not get the A team in support. If he wants full team support, he too might want to change teams. This is no different than Masnada falling ill at Quick-Step.

Most of that (except for the Masnada part) is true. And that’s precisely my point. Roglic stayed at TJV because they are a good team so talking about some “uneven” advantage (which is what @red_flanders argument was based on) is not really correct here. Roglic accepted he was going to play second fiddle in his team for the time being, going with the B team to Giro. 3 out of his initial 7 team members being replaced due to crashes and illeness by weaker members constitutes bad luck. And Masnada falling I’ll is not equal amount of bad luck - it’s way less than that…

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Of course is different. Masnada is one rider, Jumbo lost two riders last minute, so it's twice as bad.

I don't get why one of the substitutes is Van Emden. Everybody was talking about Gloag being the reserve...what happened did he also fell ill?

Obviously 2 is worse than 1, but as for it being "merit" or "bad luck" the situation is the same. Also, QuickStep didn't reveal their Giro line up until now. It was assumed Masnada would be in it. For all we know the plan was also to bring Schmid or Vansevenant originally, but due to injury (Vansevenant) and illness (Schmid) that also was not an option. The difference being that Jumbo revealed their team months ago, and QuickStep waited until now.
Point being that the argument is a bit moot. The point i was debating was his claim: "If Remco wants to have as good team as Roglic, he should go to a better team… Rogla is in that team by merit and by choice and I assume same goes for Remco." Roglic is getting the B-team and the B-substitutes at the team of his chosing and by his merit, according to bNator's own standards.

 

[red_flanders]

No, it’s bad luck. If Remco wants to have as good team as Roglic, he should go to a better team… Rogla is in that team by merit and by choice and I assume same goes for Remco. So if Rogla’s cards are now all of a sudden way worse than they were through no fault of his own, that’s called bad luck.

Sounds like preemptive whining to me. 😂

 

[red_flanders]

They didn't have a huge advantage, I don't know where that idea comes from. Their original lineup wasn't that strong either, as was evidenced in Catalunya where they all were, except for Tratnik. It was already a clear advantage for Quickstep, and it's only gotten bigger.

Watching bike racing? Rational observation?

 

[bNator]

Obviously 2 is worse than 1, but as for it being "merit" or "bad luck" the situation is the same. Also, QuickStep didn't reveal their Giro line up until now. It was assumed Masnada would be in it. For all we know the plan was also to bring Schmid or Vansevenant originally, but due to injury (Vansevenant) and illness (Schmid) that also was not an option. The difference being that Jumbo revealed their team months ago, and QuickStep waited until now.
Point being that the argument is a bit moot. The point i was debating was his claim: "If Remco wants to have as good team as Roglic, he should go to a better team… Rogla is in that team by merit and by choice and I assume same goes for Remco." Roglic is getting the B-team and the B-substitutes at the team of his chosing and by his merit, according to bNator's own standards.

But the beautiful part is that his B team still is a better team than Remco’s A team (according to red_flanders own standards) and the merit which put Rogla in this subordinate position within his own team will still prove to be sufficient to beat Remco on the Giro. Just as it did in Catalunya 😉

 

[bNator]

Sounds like preemptive whining to me. 😂

Yeah it’s not me who’s barging into Remco’s thread claiming his bad luck is not really bad luck but just a level playing field is it? 😁

 

[Salvarani]

Of course is different. Masnada is one rider, Jumbo lost two riders last minute, so it's twice as bad.

I don't get why one of the substitutes is Van Emden. Everybody was talking about Gloag being the reserve...what happened did he also fell ill?

Not really sure he ever was the reserve... probably just an assumption.

Might have been a bit risky to send both Hessman and Gloag to this race, as it would have been the first GT for both. Gloag will probably race the Vuelta later this season, I think.

With three ITTs... Van Emden and Dennis both has a chance to make a good result of their own too, at least in the first two.

 

[Rackham]

Not really sure he ever was the reserve... probably just an assumption.

Might have been a bit risky to send both Hessman and Gloag to this race, as it would have been the first GT for both. Gloag will probably race the Vuelta later this season, I think.

With three ITTs... Van Emden and Dennis both has a chance to make a good result of their own too, at least in the first two.

Jumbo themselves said Gloag was first reserve. Apparently, he wasn't (or at least his performance in Romandie was so good, they changed their minds in order to protect his development).

It's bad news, basically, because neither Van Emden nor Dennis prepared for the Giro. Dennis in particular had to withdraw from Romandie the day before it started as well because of sickness. And he's retiring soon so we could get an even worse version of Dennis than in the Vuelta last year. And that Vuelta was pretty bad from a team performance standpoint, with Chris Harper being the only real help when the road went up.

Tratnik, Affini, Kuss & Bouwman are going to have to be in top shape.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Roglic is now the 2nd choice GC rider of that team by merit, which is why he does not get to ride the Tour, which is why he does not get the A team in support. If he wants full team support, he too might want to change teams. This is no different than Masnada falling ill at Quick-Step.

Who knows what happens after the Giro. Tour is not out of the picture just yet.

 

[Lequack]

Yes Keldermann, Foss and Gesink not starting is a huge loss to Roglic. Those were strong climbing teammates that he could've used. Not the best news to get a week from the start. Next they'll tell him he has to use a kids bike and helmet because of shortages.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Another reminder they need to take respiratory infections seriously and to introduce strict regime for prevention during the Giro.

As for the substitutes. I don't know about the form and motivation but for me Dennis sounds good. Bringing van Emden likely means they will try to utilize Dennis (and Tratnik) where he (they) can make the most impact. Some youngster, being a bit better climber, likely couldn't make that much of an impact. As Dennis (and Tratnik) can. If they are relatively fresh. Due to not being at the front all the time.

Looking at the selection. Maybe one more great at least mid level climber wouldn't hurt. But then again on the important stages it will likely be up to Kuss anyway. To try to be there. The rest likely won't be able to cope. As for that you would need to bring somebody like Wilco or even Jonas in top form. And that obviously is not a real option for this Giro edition.

So all in all, considering the circumstances, i am rather happy about the selection. Especially if they are motivated and in good form.

 

[Rackham]

Another reminder they need to take respiratory infections seriously and to introduce strict regime for prevention during the Giro.

As for the substitutes. I don't know about the form and motivation but for me Dennis sounds good. Bringing van Emden likely means they will try to utilize Dennis (and Tratnik) where he (they) can make the most impact. Some youngster, being a bit better climber, likely couldn't make that much of an impact. As Dennis (and Tratnik) can. If they are relatively fresh. Due to not being at the front all the time.

Looking at the selection. Maybe one more great at least mid level climber wouldn't hurt. But then again on the important stages it will likely be up to Kuss anyway. To try to be there. The rest likely won't be able to cope. As for that you would need to bring somebody like Wilco or even Jonas in top form. And that obviously is not a real option for this Giro edition.

So all in all, considering the circumstances, i am rather happy about the selection. Especially if they are motivated and in good form.

I was under the impression Dennis has almost already mentally & physically checked out of pro cycling tbh.

I'd love to eat my words but I'll be honest, I really don't expect Dennis to make it all the way through to Rome.

 

[CyclistAbi]

For Dennis a bit of personal motivation are the two ITTs and the fact he is hanging the bike on the wall at the end of the season. He said he is in great form for Romandie, but had to pull out due to illness. So mentally and physically he likely should be good. We'll see.

 

[theyoungest]

Watching bike racing? Rational observation?

It can't be based on watching bike racing, as in the actual bike race these teams were both at, Quickstep were way stronger.

 

[Mayomaniac]

With Dennis it's either being invisible/not finishing the race or going full Stelvio mode at some point. Guy's the definition of a total wildcard.

With Kuss cold and rainy weather could be a problem, he seems to handle the heat much better.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I am happy with Dennis. Top shape Wilco is something that might have further improve this roster. But then likely we wouldn't have Kuss. Cyclists like Jonas and van Aert were never a realistic option.

So i believe in this team. If they are motivated and in good form then they can do whatever they decide, when needed. If they are not motivated and in good shape. Then Rogla will be left hanging. Not the first time. Still. I am leaning towards good team support for this Giro edition. Based on all the things we know so far.

 

[Lequack]

What about Valter, Benoot, Kruijswik, Oomen, Laporte, Van Hooydonck,.

 

[Berniece]

What about Valter, Benoot, Kruijswik, Oomen, Laporte, Van Hooydonck,.

Valter, Benoot, Laporte en Van Hooydonck have deserved some rest, and those last 3 will definitely be part of the TDF team

 

[CyclistAbi]

What about Valter, Benoot, Kruijswik, Oomen, Laporte, Van Hooydonck,.

Likely one experienced climber more wouldn't hurt. As QS does seem to have an edge here. Still factors like what is their current form, things like that do play a role. And how much of a real impact is to be expected. If a swap would be made. In the climbers section. So for that part i can imagine it's mostly up to Rogla and Kuss. To respond or to make a difference. If it's up to JV in the first place, to make a difference, then the core of the team with Rogla, Kuss, Tratnik, Dennis ... in my opinion can do it. And for the rest of the team to do their respective part. In the first half of the Giro likely Remco will attack often and when he goes it's likely mano a mano anyway. Any of the names mentioned likely couldn't respond and offer much help to Rogla. We'll see.

 

[CyclistAbi]

An experienced climber in the range of Wilco or Jonas in top form for sure wouldn't hurt. Still one option is unrealistic for now and the other one would likely come at the expense of Kuss and things become moot.

But Rogla has Remco.

 

[red_flanders]

Yeah it’s not me who’s barging into Remco’s thread claiming his bad luck is not really bad luck but just a level playing field is it? 😁

Wow. ”Barging in”. That is a bizarrely telling statement.

 

[DNP-Old]

An experienced climber in the range of Wilco or Jonas in top form for sure wouldn't hurt. Still one option is unrealistic for now and the other one would likely come at the expense of Kuss and things become moot.

But Rogla has Remco.

I had to control + f on Jumbo's team page to see if there was another Jonas on the team I had somehow forgotten about, but it would appear you are actually referring to Vingegaard here, and that gave me a good chuckle.

 

[pablohidalgo7]

Kuss according to his Strava is in great shape, he has done some test hiding his power but it is quite obvious that the results were really good, for example the one who did in Els Cortals making the KOM the other day after climbing also fast Engolasters previously to that effort. Bouwman will also be in great shape, he is not the same rider in The Giro, his level rises so much, he is going to be a top 15 climber in the race like the last two years.

Still, I would have pick Gloag and not Van Emden to increase the climbing depth.

 

[Netserk]

I trust Kuss and Tratnik to be the best doms in the Giro peloton, but Gesink was a real loss. Bouwman has had a quiet spring, but not dissimilar to last year, so maybe he will be good as well.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

What are the scenarios in which Roglic could lose due to his team's (supposedly weak) support? In 90% of the time, they will be teaming up with Quickstep, because they have a joint goal. A dangerous break? Quickstep will join the effort. If Ineos go full guerilla, both Jumbo and Quickstep need to manage the situation and can share the load. So when do people here expect Jumbo to be "outplayed" due to a lack of team depth/strength? The only possible scenario i can think of is when in the final Evenepoel goes hard... so what, nobody other than Roglic himself is going to be following him anyway, regardless of them bringing a different squad. In case he has a weak moment and needs someone by his side, there will be Kuss. So when? In case of echelons you could argue he is better off with Van Emden than with Gloag or even Kelderman. I'm just not seeing a lot of issues. By the time the fireworks start between the big boys, it will be a select group anyway.