Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Oldermanish]

Foss is the TT World Champ and will ride minutes into Remco if him and Roglic ever break free. All he needs is 10k and the race will be done.

How healthy all of these guys are in the first week is critical. Bad things can happen and you need power riders to reconnect Roglic if he has some misfortune. Hay bales don't move themselves...most of the time.
Getting to week 3 is the long goal, IMO. Gotta survive the early beatings.

 

[bNator]

How did Roglic win Catalunya, how did Pogacar win the 2020 Tour? Plenty of examples. There was another team taking control of the race, and all they had to do was follow. From the initial Giro team Jumbo announced, there are only two support riders that would make a real difference. Kelderman and Kuss. Kelderman has been out for months now, so they had ample time to find a solution for that or change their gameplan. The other is Kuss, and he's still there. Kelderman could genuinely have been a rider to get into the final with Roglic and do serious damage with a high pace, that could have put the entire Quickstep team in trouble. Foss however, is not that rider. As long as Roglic is able to make it to the final group of 20 riders along with Kuss, the addition of Gesink and Foss would be minimal, since their absence would simply put the responsibility to control the race, with QuickStep, UAE, Ineos... Gesink wouldn't make the final 20 riders, neither would Foss (or at least not with enough in the tank to mark moves or set a pace that puts rivals in trouble). And with other teams taking control, the actual importance of their absence should not be a deciding factor for Roglic.

As i said, there are scenario's like getting caught behind a crash or in echelons. But when Roglic genuinely gets dropped, those guys would be gone anyway. And when he wants to attack on the final climb, they would as well. The only real problem is if Roglic takes pink early and his "mediocre" team has to start working hard for 3 weeks straight.

Not being there with him in high mountains is the least of Rogla’s problems imo. Controlling the race is very important when you want to keep the breakaways in check. And in this case it will simply be Quickstep that decides who goes into a breakaway and who doesn’t. This could mean big trouble for Roglic as Quickstep’s interests will be quite opposite to TJV at some point. If Remco is leading GC they may want to put Roglic further down the GC standings, which they can now more easily do. And if Rogla leads well - like you’ve mentioned, they will be completely drained. In any case, now Roglic will have to count on other teams with common interests to get him through the flats where he’d better pray not to get a mechanical, crash or be caught out in an echelon...

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Not being there with him in high mountains is the least of Rogla’s problems imo. Controlling the race is very important when you want to keep the breakaways in check. And in this case it will simply be Quickstep that decides who goes into a breakaway and who doesn’t. This could mean big trouble for Roglic as Quickstep’s interests will be quite opposite to TJV at some point. If Remco is leading GC they may want to put Roglic further down the GC standings, which they can now more easily do. And if Rogla leads well - like you’ve mentioned, they will be completely drained. In any case, now Roglic will have to count on other teams with common interests to get him through the flats where he’d better pray not to get a mechanical, crash or be caught out in an echelon...

That's the entire point. There will always be other teams with joint interests. At least until the absolute final.

 

[Red Rick]

Didn‘t know you were so pedantic.

I just misread that it was about GC I think.

 

[bNator]

That's the entire point. There will always be other teams with joint interests. At least until the absolute final.

I think the point is the better your team is the less you need to rely on joint interests of other teams, the more you are in control and the better chances you have. I mean no one is saying this will be the game changer and that Rogla is now lost. And even if it does turn out to be a game changer I don’t think it will take anything away from Remco (which is all you guys are worried about). The race is long and there’s a high chance a clearly stronger rider will come out on top of it.

It’s just that Remco fans need to acknowledge Roglic is now in a not-insignificantly worse position than he was a couple of weeks ago due to bad luck. That’s all there is to it…

 

[Billie]

I like his team better with Dennis and Oomen than Foss and Gesink.

Strange choice not to select Gloag given they literally announced it quite loudly a month ago that Gloag was in camp with rest of il Giro squad to be a reserve.

 

[Mayofan]

His Team is perfectly fine.

First:
He has "his" Kuss

Kuss is arguably the best climbing dosmetice in the world, and the Most loyal.

For climbs He now has before that
Bouwmann ( a top 15-20 climber in this Race)
Oomen ( a proven climber, and good Option for 4th Spot)

+ A pair of Monsters in Tratnik and Affini

Denis is a wild Card
But He can in a good day be a monster in every Terrain

+ Loyal helper in hessmann

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I think the point is the better your team is the less you need to rely on joint interests of other teams, the more you are in control and the better chances you have. I mean no one is saying this will be the game changer and that Rogla is now lost. And even if it does turn out to be a game changer I don’t think it will take anything away from Remco (which is all you guys are worried about). The race is long and there’s a high chance a clearly stronger rider will come out on top of it.

It’s just that Remco fans need to acknowledge Roglic is now in a not-insignificantly worse position than he was a couple of weeks ago due to bad luck. That’s all there is to it…

It is not ideal. But people are acting as if he only has 2 teammates. Those other guys are still pros at one of the best GC teams in the world. The only obvious downgrade was losing Kelderman. And that was months ago.
He still has Affini, Bouwman, Tratnik and Kuss. Those are very competent doms for all terrain. Let's wait and see what form Oomen, Dennis and Hessmann are in. If they are halfway decent, the only problem will be that all of this was unwelcomed stress.

 

[acm]

I like his team better with Dennis and Oomen than Foss and Gesink.

Strange choice not to select Gloag given they literally announced it quite loudly a month ago that Gloag was in camp with rest of il Giro squad to be a reserve.

Everyone from their Romandie team has covid, probably even Gloag or he would be in Italy.

 

[theyoungest]

Oomen instead of Van Emden is not a downgrade, all due respect to Van Emden but everything he can do Affini can do as well (and probably better). Oomen, while not at his former level anymore due to a femoral artery problem, is still a decent enough climber who can be there with the best 20-30 guys uphill.

Rohan Dennis, always an enigma. He could be the best climbing domestique in the whole race and ride the whole peloton off his wheel. He could also be the first Jumbo rider to get dropped. We'll see which Rohan Dennis shows up.

 

[CyclistAbi]

One day remaining and the Giro starts! Rogla looks happy and eager to swing into action.

In a way it's a shame illness prevented some team members to participate. And some that will participate are still not 100%. Hopefully this will get ironed out during the race. For Rogla to get proper support as we go deeper into the race. On paper i feel the team is balanced with a strong core and climbers section is now reinforced. They can take on any other team when needed.

As Ali said float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. You got this Primož!

 

[gregrowlerson]

I had to control + f on Jumbo's team page to see if there was another Jonas on the team I had somehow forgotten about, but it would appear you are actually referring to Vingegaard here, and that gave me a good chuckle.

I chuckled a little as well.

But it got me thinking; Why don't we ever see Tour GC contenders ride the Giro as training for it? Like, in May, they're training at altitude often anyway. Why not put in similar efforts whilst occasionally supporting your Giro leader? Is it because of the mental fatigue from racing compared to training (though there is still this in one week races)? How is Vingegaard's shape greatly worsened from riding the Giro and finishing 1-2 hours down on GC? He could race 2-3 mountain stages hard (which is probably what he would do in training during this period anyway), soft pedal others, maybe test out his time trial form on either stage 1 or 9.

Interested in people's thoughts on this. When did GC riders last do this? I recall Lance in 2009, though he didn't soft pedal much and circumstances were different coming back from retirement. Ullrich was going down this path in 2006, but we know what happened. In theory, why couldn't your Tour leader ride the Giro as support whilst skipping a couple of earlier one week races? Or is it all more clinic related?

 

[Extinction]

I chuckled a little as well.

But it got me thinking; Why don't we ever see Tour GC contenders ride the Giro as training for it? Like, in May, they're training at altitude often anyway. Why not put in similar efforts whilst occasionally supporting your Giro leader? Is it because of the mental fatigue from racing compared to training (though there is still this in one week races)? How is Vingegaard's shape greatly worsened from riding the Giro and finishing 1-2 hours down on GC? He could race 2-3 mountain stages hard (which is probably what he would do in training during this period anyway), soft pedal others, maybe test out his time trial form on either stage 1 or 9.

Interested in people's thoughts on this. When did GC riders last do this? I recall Lance in 2009, though he didn't soft pedal much and circumstances were different coming back from retirement. Ullrich was going down this path in 2006, but we know what happened. In theory, why couldn't your Tour leader ride the Giro as support whilst skipping a couple of earlier one week races? Or is it all more clinic related?

Because a Tour champion should ride the Giro to win, but evidently the Giro-Tour double is no longer possible in today's cycling. From a practical standpoint, preparation at altitude for the Tour away from the Giro is superior. Everything is catered to raising an athlete's condition. Moreover, the risk of crashing in a field during a three week GT is much higher than in the controlled environment of a training camp.

 

[red_flanders]

I chuckled a little as well.

But it got me thinking; Why don't we ever see Tour GC contenders ride the Giro as training for it? Like, in May, they're training at altitude often anyway. Why not put in similar efforts whilst occasionally supporting your Giro leader? Is it because of the mental fatigue from racing compared to training (though there is still this in one week races)? How is Vingegaard's shape greatly worsened from riding the Giro and finishing 1-2 hours down on GC? He could race 2-3 mountain stages hard (which is probably what he would do in training during this period anyway), soft pedal others, maybe test out his time trial form on either stage 1 or 9.

Interested in people's thoughts on this. When did GC riders last do this? I recall Lance in 2009, though he didn't soft pedal much and circumstances were different coming back from retirement. Ullrich was going down this path in 2006, but we know what happened. In theory, why couldn't your Tour leader ride the Giro as support whilst skipping a couple of earlier one week races? Or is it all more clinic related?

To avoid crashes. It’s all soooo calculated now, has been for a long time. The Tour takes precedence over all other considerations when you have a winner or potential winner on the team.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Fair points, but if preparation in training and at altitude takes precedence over everything else for a potential Tour winner, then why race say Paris-Nice, Cataluyna, Dauphne at all (hypothetically) in the lead up to the Tour? That's 3 weeks of racing also, and crashes also happen in lesser stage races.

 

[Netserk]

I chuckled a little as well.

But it got me thinking; Why don't we ever see Tour GC contenders ride the Giro as training for it? [...] Or is it all more clinic related?

I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[Extinction]

Fair points, but if preparation in training and at altitude takes precedence over everything else for a potential Tour winner, then why race say Paris-Nice, Cataluyna, Dauphne at all (hypothetically) in the lead up to the Tour? That's 3 weeks of racing also, and crashes also happen in lesser stage races.

Because you need to race to have goals that confirm the progress reaped from the work (or not), to get satisfaction and drive from competition, to experience race conditions and perfect race craft, to work on and implement team strategies, build team coheasion and role playing, for the glory and prestige of a palmarès, sponsorship obligations, etc.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I chuckled a little as well.

But it got me thinking; Why don't we ever see Tour GC contenders ride the Giro as training for it? Like, in May, they're training at altitude often anyway. Why not put in similar efforts whilst occasionally supporting your Giro leader? Is it because of the mental fatigue from racing compared to training (though there is still this in one week races)? How is Vingegaard's shape greatly worsened from riding the Giro and finishing 1-2 hours down on GC? He could race 2-3 mountain stages hard (which is probably what he would do in training during this period anyway), soft pedal others, maybe test out his time trial form on either stage 1 or 9.

Interested in people's thoughts on this. When did GC riders last do this? I recall Lance in 2009, though he didn't soft pedal much and circumstances were different coming back from retirement. Ullrich was going down this path in 2006, but we know what happened. In theory, why couldn't your Tour leader ride the Giro as support whilst skipping a couple of earlier one week races? Or is it all more clinic related?

Mayo and Rasmussen both did it in 2007 where they fought against each other for the win on the final mountain stage.

 

[Red Rick]

I chuckled a little as well.

But it got me thinking; Why don't we ever see Tour GC contenders ride the Giro as training for it? Like, in May, they're training at altitude often anyway. Why not put in similar efforts whilst occasionally supporting your Giro leader? Is it because of the mental fatigue from racing compared to training (though there is still this in one week races)? How is Vingegaard's shape greatly worsened from riding the Giro and finishing 1-2 hours down on GC? He could race 2-3 mountain stages hard (which is probably what he would do in training during this period anyway), soft pedal others, maybe test out his time trial form on either stage 1 or 9.

Interested in people's thoughts on this. When did GC riders last do this? I recall Lance in 2009, though he didn't soft pedal much and circumstances were different coming back from retirement. Ullrich was going down this path in 2006, but we know what happened. In theory, why couldn't your Tour leader ride the Giro as support whilst skipping a couple of earlier one week races? Or is it all more clinic related?

I think Giro is just much worse training then Teide. You can't sleep on a mountain, you have transfers every day, you can't do the right training every day because you're restricted by the parcours and race situation, etcetc.

 

[red_flanders]

Fair points, but if preparation in training and at altitude takes precedence over everything else for a potential Tour winner, then why race say Paris-Nice, Cataluyna, Dauphne at all (hypothetically) in the lead up to the Tour? That's 3 weeks of racing also, and crashes also happen in lesser stage races.

They’re much earlier and less crazy in terms of the behavior in the bunch, and the load of a GT is just more than what’s optimal (apparently) for that training block. . Racing is good. I think they just try and manage the load and the risk.

I definitely recall the days when top guys would use the Giro for training, but back then it was raced piano for much of the day. No more.

 

[Extinction]

They’re much earlier and less crazy in terms of the behavior in the bunch, and the load of a GT is just more than what’s optimal (apparently) for that training block. . Racing is good. I think they just try and manage the load and the risk.

I definitely recall the days when too guys would use the Giro for training, but back then it was raced piano for much of the day. No more.

If the Giro was raced piano then during the first hours, it was because you had champions who, yes, were going for the win, but also preparing for the Tour. I can imagine a Hinault on certain stages saying something like; "Allright boys, today we takes it easy, so don't break my cojones! Got it? Capite? Youz know what I mean? Okay, let's go!"

 

[gregrowlerson]

I don't know what exactly I can or can't say. But it's probably better to be on an isolated mountain on a far away island than in a grand tour with certain people everywhere

Yes, but then why race dauphne which is closer to Tour time?

 

[CyclistAbi]

So Tratnik likely injured. Grande Casino.

 

[Netserk]

So Tratnik likely injured. Grande Casino.

Grande Casino, here we come!

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Damn does every fan feel like this is how it always go for their preferred rider? He is due some good luck