Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Eddy Evenepoel]

If Roglic want to win this he need to attack on the first ascent of Linares. Probably on the early slopes too.
(It would probably look bad tho)

 

[theyoungest]

One thing is for sure, the people who feared it would be a boring final week have been wrong The podcasts and talkshows have plenty of stuff to talk about. And they need hysteria, they don't need a balanced conversation because nobody watches that.

I think the problem is that this is a completely new situation for everyone involved. The Vuelta is now a race between three riders from the same team. And the other teams are riding so stupidly that they make it a race between three Jumbo riders. Bahrain yesterday, UAE the day before... it's just incomprehensible. So then the onus is on Jumbo to entertain the masses. And whichever way you put it, that's what they are doing.

 

[Divergence]

The rage crying over stage 16 in this thread is some funny stuff. It was absolutely text book. Last Dom gone, launch a rider to keep control, he makes it or doesn't, you clean up with your sprint strong guy behind that can free wheel. This is done all the time. Like what the hell.

It's like all this emotional baggage is pushing all logic out the window. You are injecting all kinds of thing in to it, when it was common racing practice.

But they promised it to Roglic in the morning you say, aka plan A. Well things change on the road. If UAE was a normal team, Roglic wins, if Jumbo has 2-3 dom's at the bottom of the climb, Roglic wins.

Now I don't mind yesterday as much as some do, but to compare what happened there to stage 16 is just ridiculous. Here Roglic and Jonas looked bad to a great deal of people.

Jonas gained time whilst Rog and Kuss were being the good teammates. However, Jonas gaining a minute there established the precedent and if I were Rog I would have been furious and probably started pacing ever sooner (UAE and everybody else are a non-factor anyway in this race). Yesterday, at least, everybody was allowed to ride to the best of his capabilities. I agree that this looks bad for everybody but it is Jonas that started this sh**.

 

[bNator]

I agree that this looks bad for everybody but it is Jonas that started this sh**.

But, but… it was for Nathan😢

 

[CyclistAbi]

The rage crying over stage 16 in this thread is some funny stuff. It was absolutely text book. Last Dom gone, launch a rider to keep control, he makes it or doesn't, you clean up with your sprint strong guy behind that can free wheel. This is done all the time. Like what the hell.

It's like all this emotional baggage is pushing all logic out the window. You are injecting all kinds of thing in to it, when it was common racing practice.

But they promised it to Roglic in the morning you say, aka plan A. Well things change on the road. If UAE was a normal team, Roglic wins, if Jumbo has 2-3 dom's at the bottom of the climb, Roglic wins.

Now I don't mind yesterday as much as some do, but to compare what happened there to stage 16 is just ridiculous. Here Roglic and Jonas looked bad to a great deal of people.

It doesn't really matter that much any more. Guys will resolve such issues on the road. But saying that Jonas didn't attack red jersey in the last two stages and Rogla did yesterday. That is just ludicrous.

 

[kn0s]

Jonas gained time whilst Rog and Kuss were being the good teammates. However, Jonas gaining a minute there established the precedent and if I were Rog I would have been furious and probably started pacing ever sooner (UAE and everybody else are a non-factor anyway in this race). Yesterday, at least, everybody was allowed to ride to the best of his capabilities. I agree that this looks bad for everybody but it is Jonas that started this sh**.

You are doing it again. Is what Jonas did not seen in cycling all the time? Is it not absolutely normal tactics? UAE even did something similar the day after with soler (very, very badly). You put guys out to see what happens and to let your other guys free wheel behind, what is so hard to understand?

You can be mad at UAE all you want for giving him a minute, but sitting in the car, this is tactics one o one.

 

[Divergence]

You are doing it again. Is what Jonas did not seen in cycling all the time? Is it not absolutely normal tactics? UAE even did something similar the day after with soler (very, very badly). You put guys out to see what happens and to let your other guys free wheel behind, what is so hard to understand?

You can be mad at UAE all you want for giving him a minute, but sitting in the car, this is tactics one o one.

Dude, UAE is a non-factor. This is intra Jumbo.

 

[Red Rick]

This is all fall out fallout from stage 16. Before that they seemed fine with each other. The team car should have just have caged Jonas. Instead they renegged the plan they agreed to and Roglic never got his fair shot

 

[Elos Anjos]

What's the best word in English for feigning sympathy while hiding your true intentions? In Portuguese we have a word for that - sonso - that critically applies to Vingo.

 

[kn0s]

This is all fall out fallout from stage 16. Before that they seemed fine with each other.

But I can't for the life of me see Jumbo did anything wrong, it's a normal way to ride

Without the 1minut gab would there be a problem?

They catch Jonas at 500m Roglic sprints to the victory, was the tactics fine then?

Jonas wins with 10 seconds, witch would be a normal amount on a climb like this. Would the collective thread still get a brain aneurysm?

 

[Gargamel35]

This is all fall out fallout from stage 16. Before that they seemed fine with each other.

You should check Trines thread (sorry, Jonas thread) where some are 100% sure, Jonas rides for Kuss and Rog is trying to rip the jersey away. Good guy Jonas is right there to prevent that...and get it for himself. But he'll only do it for Kuss.

 

[theyoungest]

This is all fall out fallout from stage 16. Before that they seemed fine with each other. The team car should have just have caged Jonas. Instead they renegged the plan they agreed to and Roglic never got his fair shot

It is and it isn't. How was Vingegaard to know that they'd simply stop riding behind? Even if he had the evil intentions most people on the internet believe he has, surely that's not what he could have expected. Maybe hoped for.

The situation is exacerbated by the absolute ineptitude of the other teams. It turns the focus on intra team dynamics of Jumbo that normally wouldn't even be an issue. Even if Vingegaard and Roglic hate each other's guts.

 

[Divergence]

Man, will I be happy when Jonas and JV fail at the TdF24.

 

[Red Rick]

It is and it isn't. How was Vingegaard to know that they'd simply stop riding behind? Even if he had the evil intentions most people on the internet believe he has, surely that's not what he could have expected. Maybe hoped for.

The situation is exacerbated by the absolute ineptitude of the other teams. It turns the focus on intra team dynamics of Jumbo that normally wouldn't even be an issue. Even if Vingegaard and Roglic hate each other's guts.

Nah Vingegaard attacking wasn't necessary at all. They had GC locked up already. Attacking only benefits Vingegaard. Plus it wasn't the plan they agreed to.

Maybe Vingegaard really did only want the stage, but the DS shouldn've have let him undercut Roglic if you want them to work together.

 

[DoYouEvenRideBruh]

People criticize Roglič for riding hard and dropping Kuss yesterday, but at the end of the day he was just going for the stage. He was never going into red, unlike Jonas, who followed no questions asked and got himself to a very nice spot for the overall win. So why not blame Jonas, who could have just stayed behind? Rog wins the stage, Kuss is firmly in red, and Jonas could have been content with the two stages he already got.

To be clear, I don't necessarily share this opinion: I don't mind them racing against each other, but between Jonas and Roglič, it seems to me that it's Jonas' behaviour the one that has been the hardest to justify throughout these last few stages. I'm baffled to see people portraying Roglič as some kind of villain in this situation.

 

[theyoungest]

Nah Vingegaard attacking wasn't necessary at all. They had GC locked up already. Attacking only benefits Vingegaard. Plus it wasn't the plan they agreed to.

Maybe Vingegaard really did only want the stage, but the DS shouldn've have let him undercut Roglic if you want them to work together.

It wasn't necessary, but the alternative was Vingegaard doing a 3k leadout for Roglic. If you have the numbers that's not the smartest thing to do, why not attack and make other teams do the work to bring you back.

Of course Vingegaard secretly wanted to win the stage, but the way it panned out was completely unexpected. I think people on here even said that he wasn't all that strong, since Fisher-Black could keep him in his sights for quite some time. Well, if that's the case, then surely a proper chase could have brought him back.

 

[Red Rick]

It wasn't necessary, but the alternative was Vingegaard doing a 3k leadout for Roglic. If you have the numbers that's not the smartest thing to do, why not attack and make other teams do the work to bring you back.

Of course Vingegaard secretly wanted to win the stage, but the way it panned out was completely unexpected. I think people on here even said that he wasn't all that strong, since Fisher-Black could keep him in his sights for quite some time. Well, if that's the case, then surely a proper chase could have brought him back.

Big difference between going so early and letting Vingegaard attack late. If you let him go late, you get the same tactical advantage but there's no risk of losing a full minute.

 

[Oldermanish]

People criticize Roglič for riding hard and dropping Kuss yesterday, but at the end of the day he was just going for the stage. He was never going into red, unlike Jonas, who followed no questions asked and got himself to a very nice spot for the overall win. So why not blame Jonas, who could have just stayed behind? Rog wins the stage, Kuss is firmly in red, and Jonas could have been content with the two stages he already got.

To be clear, I don't necessarily share this opinion: I don't mind them racing against each other, but between Jonas and Roglič, it seems to me that it's Jonas' behaviour the one that has been the hardest to justify throughout these last few stages. I'm baffled to see people portraying Roglič as some kind of villain in this situation.

And today Jonas did the team thing so, for the time being; all is fine. Gotta get Kuss to the finish, though.

 

[Red Rick]

Good job today.

Attacking would not have accomplished anything. If you have beef with Vingegaard gifting to Kuss is better.

 

[theyoungest]

Good job today.

Attacking would not have accomplished anything. If you have beef with Vingegaard gifting to Kuss is better.

Looking forward to see all three of them in the Tour next year

First American Tour win in 35 years coming up.

 

[DNP-Old]

Looking forward to see all three of them in the Tour next year

Me too, albeit one of them on a different team.

 

[kn0s]

Big difference between going so early and letting Vingegaard attack late. If you let him go late, you get the same tactical advantage but there's no risk of losing a full minute.

Not sure I understand, but if I do, then that makes even less sense. Going early is the whole point. Waiting till it's Roglic time for Jonas to attack does absolutely nothing towards controlling the stage from when Walter lets go. Also there is no risk of losing a minute for Jumbo, only gaining as it was there rider doing it.

Jonas attacking late, oh my the drama that could bring.

 

[Rackham]

Me too, albeit one of them on a different team.

I think this is inevitable now.

The 'human' situation at Jumbo seems impossible. It's such a tense end to the Vuelta I bet he can't wait to go home. But at least he'll get his name engraved at the top of the Angliru.

Considering his form, Vuelta number 4 was possible, except he could never really go for it.

 

[Captain Awesome]

Anyone else feel like Roglic isn’t happy because he expected to be co-captain with Vingegaard and then ride for the win. He also probably thought it was 50/50 because Vingegaard rode Tour de France. That would have given Roglic a good and fair chance to win Vuelta. I think Roglic would have been fine if he had lost the Vuelta to Jonas in a fair duel. Like both giving 100% and the best man win scenario?

But losing it to Kuss while having to hold back was a waste of time for Roglic. Roglic was already second fiddle to Jonas and now even domestiques gets to win before him. He is also 33 and every Grand Tour could be his last. You never know when you fall off at that age.

Roglic needs to make a decision. Stay with Jumbo and be second fiddle and ride the Giro as captain or change team and go up against Pogacar and Vingegaard. He probably only have one or two years where he can compete against the likes of Vingegaard and Pogacar.

I kinda hope he changes team for next season and go all out for the Tour. He already won the Vuelta and Giro so it’s not like he has much to lose. Winning another Giro or Vuelta doesn’t change much. The alternative is to go to the Tour as Jumbos no. 2 and then hope Vingegaard somehow fails. But honestly it would be much more fun if he was captain for another team.

 

[theyoungest]

I think this is inevitable now.

The 'human' situation at Jumbo seems impossible. It's such a tense end to the Vuelta I bet he can't wait to go home. But at least he'll get his name engraved at the top of the Angliru.

Considering his form, Vuelta number 4 was possible, except he could never really go for it.

Then at least he should have been able to drop Vingegaard on Angliru. Or drop the other contenders on Tourmalet, rather than sprinting away from them in the final few hundred meters.

Roglic was good, clearly one of the two strongest riders, but winning the Vuelta against Vingegaard... I'm not too sure.