Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Red Lobster]

I kinda hope he changes team for next season and go all out for the Tour. He already won the Vuelta and Giro so it’s not like he has much to lose. Winning another Giro or Vuelta doesn’t change much. The alternative is to go to the Tour as Jumbos no. 2 and then hope Vingegaard somehow fails. But honestly it would be much more fun if he was captain for another team.

I'm with you but if I'm honest I can't see Roglic being competitive with Vingegaard at the Tour.

 

[Rackham]

Then at least he should have been able to drop Vingegaard on Angliru. Or drop the other contenders on Tourmalet, rather than sprinting away from them in the final few hundred meters.

Roglic was good, clearly one of the two strongest riders, but winning the Vuelta against Vingegaard... I'm not too sure.

He beat him by a large margin in the ITT & was better on Javalambre.

In a fair fight the onus would have been on Vingegaard dropping Rog because he would have been ahead in GC with all things being equal.

That's my takeaway. I'm sure others have their own views.

 

[Captain Awesome]

I'm with you but if I'm honest I can't see Roglic being competitive with Vingegaard at the Tour.

Me neither. I think he is a level/tier below Vingegaard and Pogacar. But i don’t think he has much to lose. Also being third best is still good and you never know what happens. Injuries before the Tour, crashes in the Tour, a bad day, bike problems. Going into the Tour as a captain for your own team and as the third best rider means theres always a chance to win it. And what else is there to do for Roglic. He already won the Giro and Vuelta.

Also there’s a lot of teams out there that would be happy to support him 100%, not many GC riders out there that even have the potential to match Roglic.

But the only thing we can do is hope that he thinks the same as us. The next Tour could be really good if the likes of Remco and Roglic enters as captains.

 

[RedheadDane]

The next Tour could be really good if the likes of Remco and Roglic enters as captains.

And Bernal is back to his best.

 

[ice&fire]

Best he can do is get on the car in the middle of stage 20 to force a change of teams.

 

[cellardoor]

Then at least he should have been able to drop Vingegaard on Angliru. Or drop the other contenders on Tourmalet, rather than sprinting away from them in the final few hundred meters.

Roglic was good, clearly one of the two strongest riders, but winning the Vuelta against Vingegaard... I'm not too sure.

I don't think I've seen even the biggest Roglic fans saying he'd have definitely beaten Jonas in a fair fight. It's just it seems Roglic was hamstrung by inner team dynamics and so we're left reading tea leaves as to who was better.

 

[Bolder]

He beat him by a large margin in the ITT & was better on Javalambre.

In a fair fight the onus would have been on Vingegaard dropping Rog because he would have been ahead in GC with all things being equal.

That's my takeaway. I'm sure others have their own views.

The real question is whom non-GC Kuss would be working for. There’s your winner.

 

[Red Rick]

Anyone else feel like Roglic isn’t happy because he expected to be co-captain with Vingegaard and then ride for the win. He also probably thought it was 50/50 because Vingegaard rode Tour de France. That would have given Roglic a good and fair chance to win Vuelta. I think Roglic would have been fine if he had lost the Vuelta to Jonas in a fair duel. Like both giving 100% and the best man win scenario?

But losing it to Kuss while having to hold back was a waste of time for Roglic. Roglic was already second fiddle to Jonas and now even domestiques gets to win before him. He is also 33 and every Grand Tour could be his last. You never know when you fall off at that age.

Roglic needs to make a decision. Stay with Jumbo and be second fiddle and ride the Giro as captain or change team and go up against Pogacar and Vingegaard. He probably only have one or two years where he can compete against the likes of Vingegaard and Pogacar.

I kinda hope he changes team for next season and go all out for the Tour. He already won the Vuelta and Giro so it’s not like he has much to lose. Winning another Giro or Vuelta doesn’t change much. The alternative is to go to the Tour as Jumbos no. 2 and then hope Vingegaard somehow fails. But honestly it would be much more fun if he was captain for another team.

Check the reaction on the Tourmalet. They were all happy there. Then stage 16 happened, with Kuss saying the plan was to go for Roglic.

 

[Red Rick]

I don't think I've seen even the biggest Roglic fans saying he'd have definitely beaten Jonas in a fair fight. It's just it seems Roglic was hamstrung by inner team dynamics and so we're left reading tea leaves as to who was better.

In my view Roglic was clearly better during the first half of the Vuelta barring the day after he crashed. Then on Tourmalet Vingegaard doesn't take that much time all things considering, and yesterday they both do a stratospheric time on the Angliru.

Roglic attacked first on Javalambre and then Vingegaard closed him. On Xorret de Cati Roglic wanted to attack at the same moment Kuss wanted to so he let Kuss go first. Then they waste a chance for Roglic on Laguna Negra because lol team tactics.

 

[Miha81]

Check the reaction on the Tourmalet. They were all happy there. Then stage 16 happened, with Kuss saying the plan was to go for Roglic.

But fisherman wanted to dedicate another win

At least at the end they both did "the right" thing and somehow repaired team PR. But damage is done and I think postseason will be interesting.

 

[Red Rick]

Wielerflits has a much milder interview

"Yesterday the team decided the GC should stay as it is. Firstly, I'm really happy for Kuss. Myself I have some mixed feelings" In a later interview he said he was mainly happy.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I am not saying I think Roglic would have won this year’s Tour (I don’t), but if he’d been on a different, equally strong team than Vingegaard. I think he would have won. He would have been ahead by well over a minute after the first week and just needed to follow. As we say on Angliru, he was more than capable. Given that ride and how hard he closed on Tourmalet in the last 1km, I don’t see any way Roglic would have lost this Vuelta.

To be fair, some of that is because Vingegaard came in a little undercooked, had GI issues, and dropped a chain on the TTT.

But if everything played out the exact same only they were on different teams, I think Roglic wins by 1-2 minutes.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

After today's stage the Rogla vs Vingo debate doesn't make sense anymore regarding the Vuelta winner. Vingo didn't try to get those 8 seconds from Kuss, he actually helped him. if Vingo hadn't attacked on stage 16 Kuss would still be the winner (as it's now).

 

[bNator]

I’m just speculating here of course, but there may be better reasons for Rogla to leave TJV besides just TDF attendance/status question. What happened this Vuelta has revealed the toxic environment in that team. I can not imagine how a guy like Roglic can be happy in such an environment or as @Rackham put it - dog eat dog savagery where a manipulative character like Jonas gets all the support from the team.

Roglic following Vinge obsessively today was a good indicator of distrust from his side and this kind of thing can’t be repaired I think…

 

[theyoungest]

I’m just speculating here of course, but there may be better reasons for Rogla to leave TJV besides just TDF attendance/status question. What happened this Vuelta has revealed the toxic environment in that team. I can not imagine how a guy like Roglic can be happy in such an environment or as @Rackham put it - dog eat dog savagery where a manipulative character like Jonas gets all the support from the team.

Roglic following Vinge obsessively today was a good indicator of distrust from his side and this kind of thing can’t be repaired I think…

"Toxic environment".... jesus dude. Roglic has been there for nearly 10 years. I know that for the haters of particular riders it's difficult to accept that maybe the team isn't really the problem, or any particular rider, but just the situation in general. It's a unique result, 3 riders on the podium, and it inevitably causes some infighting. You don't become a GT winner without being a bit of a self-centered a.sshole. Unless you're Sepp Kuss.

 

[Rackham]

Wielerflits has a much milder interview

"Yesterday the team decided the GC should stay as it is. Firstly, I'm really happy for Kuss. Myself I have some mixed feelings" In a later interview he said he was mainly happy.

Short video of the post-stage interview:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spS38wxYDoA

 

[Carols]

I'm American and should be happy. But Kuss was allowed away in a break, won the stage and gained enough to hold onto a decent gap through the ITT! But I don't think he'd have won this race without team intervention on Primoz and Jonas. Primoz especially. Kuss was by no means the strongest.
We'll never know who would have won if TJV didn't decide and they were allowed to battle it out on the road. A very unsatisfactory conclusion for me

 

[Carols]

.You don't become a GT winner without being a bit of a self-centered a.sshole. Unless you're Sepp Kuss.

And you get it gifted to you by management!

 

[Red Rick]

Nothing indicates that the team environment is normally toxic. It looks much more like this incident is an abberation than a systemic issue.

 

[Carols]

Short video of the post-stage interview:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spS38wxYDoA

Well he sure seems okay if not jubilant about it. Imagine The Tantrum Throwing Belgian in that interview after being held back multiple times!!

 

[Netserk]

Short video of the post-stage interview:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spS38wxYDoA

Scary cheek bones.

Man, he was so ready for this race.

 

[Red Rick]

Scary cheek bones.

Man, he was so ready for this race.

Did he start by joking they'll at least be 1-2 if he crashes on the downhill to the bus?

 

[dobrien]

I'm American and should be happy. But Kuss was allowed away in a break, won the stage and gained enough to hold onto a decent gap through the ITT! But I don't think he'd have won this race without team intervention on Primoz and Jonas. Primoz especially. Kuss was by no means the strongest.
We'll never know who would have won if TJV didn't decide and they were allowed to battle it out on the road. A very unsatisfactory conclusion for me

I'm also from the US and agree with this. The race dynamic changed completely when Sepp got into that break, and frankly I think it's sad for Sepp that his otherwise brilliant ride is being overshadowed by this. He has been legitimately equal or superior to the best of the rest, Mas, Ayuso, Landa, etc which is really incredible when you consider he's nearing the end of his third GT this year. In a perfect world we get to see a straight fight between Primosz and Jonas, with Sepp being lauded for a truly great ride. Instead we get what we got, which seems satisfying to very few.

I really do feel for Primosz; he is getting up there in years and a chance lost is very hard to get back. In this case, not just a chance for another GT win but to also make his case for leadership next year. Uggh.

 

[ice&fire]

Nothing indicates that the team environment is normally toxic. It looks much more like this incident is an abberation than a systemic issue.

Roglic's crashes at the TDF have been deferring the aberration for two years.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

The drama between Rog and Vingo could have been largely avoided if Tratnik and Valter had been used better in the Javalambre stage.